224 replies to this topic

[marf]

the way i conquered my depression and anxiety was using mental chess on my brain. what ever was bothering me I had to check mate that shit.  oh, this is bothering me? well, im going to have this reaction to it now. Im going to let it go and  accept it. whatever it is. devise a coping strategy. meds just stabilize you to get on with this cognitive therapy. which i did all by myself without knowing what cog therapy was. too expensive. gen practitioners want to dole out meds and make you feel like a whiny pussy cause they are science geeks and can't relate to humans. id say going through the fire of depression has made me a stronger. more centered empathetic person. it opened my eyes more than any drug trip. although it was awful

Edited by marf, 11 December 2011 - 09:40 AM.

[Smettingham Rutherford IV]

well said.

Im glad you can tell that side of self-improvement/empowerment without demanding that all others need and should naturally folllow suit...some people need more help than others.

Nowadays when I get into bouts of depression I talk myself into knowing why my depression is irrational, or, in worst case scenarios, if it cannot be found to be irrational, then I find a proper pseudo-healthy way to exercise it (playing my bass really fucking loud and screaming a punk song, punching bags, jogging, etc. etc.)

[marf]

chimera slot mom, on 11 December 2011 - 06:44 AM, said:

Quote

maybe you're just realising that life pretty much sucks to a large degree - welcome to the real world mate...lol only gets worse from here.

However, lately I've found Zen Meditation and it has helped me a lot. Something powerful happens when you run out of fucks to give and take yourself less seriously. I mean in that I can be in that terrible place but also function, because my awareness is not only somewhere else, it's something else and it's okay. So there's something interesting in that maybe you can go through that abyss and come out the other side, without having to resort to pitiful forms of self-chastizing therapy and drugs to bring you back to what Thoreau called a life of quiet desperation. I have always been afraid of making the wrong decisions, and this is aggravated when I realize that due to my newly developing outlook I'm not being cautious enough, but maybe through going through a period of existential crisis you can realize that all decisions are absolutely senseless and there is no need to be that hard on yourself. So in a roundabout kind of way that can help cure indecisiveness and fear.

here is your answer. this is your chess move. you have to understand how your brain works. Only you can do it.

[A/D]

marf, on 11 December 2011 - 09:37 AM, said:

the way i conquered my depression and anxiety was using mental chess on my brain. what ever was bothering me I had to check mate that shit.  oh, this is bothering me? well, im going to have this reaction to it now. Im going to let it go and  accept it. whatever it is. devise a coping strategy.

this is a good post.  After going through some strain of this myself (still dealing with it, idk if it ever goes completely away) the best advice I can give is to always be on your toes, observe your brain and try to prune it like a garden.  For me, when I feel really awful, if I look closely enough the awful feeling is made up of a writhing knot of hard-to-express thoughts.   I learned to pick those thoughts apart, say them one at a time, and discard the ones that I don't agree with.  A lot of them are sweeping judgements like "nothing I do is ever any good".  Those can be tossed because they have nothing to do with your present reality; they're just, for lack of a better term, the disease.

I smoked a ton of pot before and during trying to take care of my issues.  It really helped me slow my thoughts down and observe my brain better.  I think the best part was it helped me live in the present moment - it made the choice more obvious between doing something that could help and wallowing in that bad feeling, which it feeds on imo.  So, I was lucky - I found a medication that worked for me.  (These days it seems to cloud my thoughts more than anything else.  Maybe I've grown out of it.)

My tl;dr is, if you really want to beat it, it's like learning to fight.  You have to train yourself, examine bad habits, learn when to be hard or easy on yourself, treat your enemy with respect, and always do your best in battle.  Learn from your defeats, don't get overconfident from your victories.  Don't be afraid to ask for help from anyone - even internet people can help (this thread is full of them).  It won't happen overnight, but slowly, and one day you'll wake up and realize you've been pretty good for a week, or a month, or a year.

Good luck sir & don't hesitate to post on progress!

[lumpenprol]

marf, on 11 December 2011 - 09:37 AM, said:

id say going through the fire of depression has made me a stronger. more centered empathetic person. it opened my eyes more than any drug trip. although it was awful

I think this is probably a typical result of having mental illness, no matter which coping strategy you find - it gives you a window into a whole new world of insight. You are suddenly a member of a different tribe than you were before, the tribe of the malfunctioning...I remember when I first started getting panic attacks and I was at a party trying to talk to a friend and my brain was unable to filter out all the clashing stimuli it normally filters out automatically...it was a truly enlightening experience, as potent or more potent than any psychedelic trip, where I realized "holy shit, the brain does so many fucking things in the background automatically that we all take for granted!" I felt I almost had a 3D view of how the brain catches and filters background noise, neighboring conversations, etc and how in my case they were getting past this and piercing into my nerve center...of course while I was having this "aha" moment I was hiding in the bathroom...lol...

Edit: and just as a side-note to XXX, I know what you mean about not taking what watmm says as gospel, but actually I think watmm usually gives solid advice (in the aggregate)

Edit 2: awesome post A/D

Edited by lumpenprol, 11 December 2011 - 10:11 AM.

[Smettingham Rutherford IV]

I should add that, a lot of people here are suggesting usage of psychoactive, organic substances or marijuana. While there is nothing wrong with that, I would still hesitate to go the medication route first and foremost. Just because its natural and it worked for some people, you may want to try improving in an environment you have far more control over (i.e. psychiatrist or doctor recommended stuff, maybe talk to a holistic doctor about the usage of organic materials?). But I really cannot stress how important it is to try and work on yourself as "sober" as possible, at least initially.


I know a lot of us are talking out of our asses, but a lot of us also have a lot of personal experience with this, and it sorta cheers me up to see how much support and advice people are giving Pod.

[Smettingham Rutherford IV]

lumpenprol, on 11 December 2011 - 10:09 AM, said:

marf, on 11 December 2011 - 09:37 AM, said:

id say going through the fire of depression has made me a stronger. more centered empathetic person. it opened my eyes more than any drug trip. although it was awful

Edit: and just as a side-note to XXX, I know what you mean about not taking what watmm says as gospel, but actually I think watmm usually gives solid advice (in the aggregate)

Agreed. While we certainly shouldn't be trusted in terms of recommending pharmaceuticals or other drugs/organic materials, the mere circle of variously nuanced experiences each member of this community has had can suggest to Pod various different paths of action, and that just because one doctor tells you a certain method works, doesn't necessarily mean thats the only way to go about it.

Ive been really mouthy on the boards lately. Im gonna shut the fuck up and leave it to some people that probably know more about this.

Edited by Smettingham Rutherford IV, 11 December 2011 - 10:13 AM.

[jefferoo]

The one thing i do know about antidepressants (literally) is that I had a girlfriend for a while  in college, getting her major in flute performance. She kinda hated the flute but her parents decided early on that she would play the flute and become a flautist. They were fucked up white conservatives from Indiana.
Anyway, she was miserable. She was upset and felt she had no control over her own life and didn't really even know who she was. Her parents were both psychiatrists and prescribed her large doses of antidepressants so that she could focus.
Major mistake.
This basically fucked her brain/body chemistry up, while adding to her general feeling of not having control. When I was dating her, she just had gotten to the point where she was trying to take herself off the meds. Problem is, when she did, she couldn't function as a human being. It had changed her so much, when she was off them, she could barely talk, let alone get out of bed.
She ended up sabotaging her own senior recital to get back at her parents.
I ended up breaking up with her because I couldn't find myself attracted to who she was off the meds (basically a ball of human mush) and it made me feel like she wasn't truly herself when she was medicated. Very awkward situation.
Personally, I feel what her parents did to her was criminal.
Anyway, the point of all this is, sometimes medication isn't always going to fix a fundemental problem. Yes, there are people out there who's biology is just chemically inbalanced. I'm just saying, sometimes it seems easier to medicate than to work through issues.

Edited by jefferoo, 11 December 2011 - 10:23 AM.

[essines]

A/D, on 11 December 2011 - 10:04 AM, said:

marf, on 11 December 2011 - 09:37 AM, said:

the way i conquered my depression and anxiety was using mental chess on my brain. what ever was bothering me I had to check mate that shit.  oh, this is bothering me? well, im going to have this reaction to it now. Im going to let it go and  accept it. whatever it is. devise a coping strategy.

this is a good post.  After going through some strain of this myself (still dealing with it, idk if it ever goes completely away) the best advice I can give is to always be on your toes, observe your brain and try to prune it like a garden.  For me, when I feel really awful, if I look closely enough the awful feeling is made up of a writhing knot of hard-to-express thoughts.   I learned to pick those thoughts apart, say them one at a time, and discard the ones that I don't agree with.  A lot of them are sweeping judgements like "nothing I do is ever any good".  Those can be tossed because they have nothing to do with your present reality; they're just, for lack of a better term, the disease.

I smoked a ton of pot before and during trying to take care of my issues.  It really helped me slow my thoughts down and observe my brain better.  I think the best part was it helped me live in the present moment - it made the choice more obvious between doing something that could help and wallowing in that bad feeling, which it feeds on imo.  So, I was lucky - I found a medication that worked for me.  (These days it seems to cloud my thoughts more than anything else.  Maybe I've grown out of it.)

My tl;dr is, if you really want to beat it, it's like learning to fight.  You have to train yourself, examine bad habits, learn when to be hard or easy on yourself, treat your enemy with respect, and always do your best in battle.  Learn from your defeats, don't get overconfident from your victories.  Don't be afraid to ask for help from anyone - even internet people can help (this thread is full of them).  It won't happen overnight, but slowly, and one day you'll wake up and realize you've been pretty good for a week, or a month, or a year.

Good luck sir & don't hesitate to post on progress!

Well said, sir.  I wake up some mornings and hate myself but you describe the route of thought/action i would/have take/n.

[verticalhold]

The Pod, on 10 December 2011 - 03:49 PM, said:

Have you ever been put on Anti Depressants by a doctor? I've been rather depressed for at least 9 months now.

I think this is generally good for stand-up comedy

[Kcinsu]

didn't read all of the replies, so sorry if this was said already, but if you are feeling worse after exercise, it's very likely that your diet needs to be better... you need to eat healthy food, and at the right times, so you have the energy to burn in your workout. if you aren't doing that, you are depleting yourself without replacing what you burned!

[jules]

this thread is like one big watmm hug.


I had a small bout with anxiety attacks a few years ago and was prescribed Xanax by a psych. just having them on me eliminated 90% of the attacks because I knew I could stop it. that eventually led to me being able to fight them off on my own. good luck pod, you are too young to not have a chance at being happy.

[Smettingham Rutherford IV]

jules, on 11 December 2011 - 07:08 PM, said:

this thread is like one big watmm hug.


I had a small bout with anxiety attacks a few years ago and was prescribed Xanax by a psych. just having them on me eliminated 90% of the attacks because I knew I could stop it. that eventually led to me being able to fight them off on my own. good luck pod, you are too young to not have a chance at being happy.

i should probably consider getting a refill on those...they were lifesavers last year...almost daily panic attacks, no sleep....thats a situation where a pill comes in handy.

[xxx]

goDel, on 11 December 2011 - 06:42 AM, said:

xxx, on 11 December 2011 - 03:53 AM, said:

goDel, on 10 December 2011 - 04:28 PM, said:

Been reading up on an interesting book lately: The Emperor's New Drug. It's basically about research about the (non)effectiveness of anti-depressants. Conclusion: anti-depressants are as effective as active placebo's (active in the sense that they have the same/similar side-effects as anti-depressants. The most fucked up thing is that the most important theory behind the effectiveness of anti-depressants is completely unfounded. The theory is supposed to be that depression is 'caused' by a lack of certain chemicals in your brain. Well, if that were the case, one could argue that headaches are caused by a lack of paracetamol as well.

A large part of the book is about how it could be that although medical research is heavily regulated, it is still possible to be potentially completely rubbish.

Face it. If they work, it's a placebo thing. So you might want to consider some cheaper alternatives.

http://www.amazon.co...23563382&sr=8-1

Not so fast. This has become a popular conclusion but most of the studies have methodological errors. It's important to look at meta-analyses. This is where many studies that may be studying different independent and dependent variables are aggregated statistically to find larger trends or findings. A really good meta-analysis of antidepressants (sorry chen, can't find it at the mo) found that drugs alone account for between 21-24% of the variance in outcomes of depressed participants. This is well beyond placebo effect and seems to square with most anecdotal evidence that "drugs helped, but not enough". The remaining (huge) portion of the variance had to be chalked up to basically "other" so it really comes back to Lumpenprol. Do anything--talk to someone, exercise, engage socially even if you're not feeling it, etc--in conjunction with medicine and you will see greater improvement. But, this leads me to:

You're pointing to meta-analyses which is just what the author of the book had been doing for years. This is not anecdotal.

The meta-analyses clearly show that the added effect of antidepressants has been consistently the result of either using non-active placebo's as a control group, or cherry picking results. It is quite common to not publish the undesired results in the medical research community.

You might want to read up on the book (and the research behind it) first before you put it aside as just another study.

Here, you might want to read up on this:
http://www.huffingto...r_b_442205.html

I agree with you that people should pursue cheaper alternatives--particularly in America--if they can. I am a devout follower of Szasz and Breggin so I am very aware of the ceremony, ritual and symbolism in psychiatry, which is why there is such an overwhelming placebo effect. What you're neglecting and I believe the authors are glossing over as well is that the stakes are extremely high in psychiatry. We are talking about life and death, financial and social ruin, homelessness, addiction and many other terrible consequences of mental illness.

The problem is that the medicalization of Western society has created a much too large pool of "depressed" people. I don't want to say real mental illness but...yeah, the prevalence of chronic, frank mental illness is generally lower (2-10% of the population) than drug companies and doctors would have you believe. A lot of people are marketed to and harried doctors are quick to say, "problem? OK SSRI" in the 10 minutes HMO's give them with patients. Most people are in situational or existential crises that, while frustrating, will resolve with time alone. The problem quickly becomes: which one? Are you going to be the patient who would do just fine if it was a placebo or are you part of that small but dangerous population with such resistant, chronic and debilitating mental illness that you need that 21-25% drug effect to avoid not killing yourself? To satisfy concerns of liability and safety, it's easier to just give the SSRI because the stakes are too high when you withhold.

It's easy to get philosophical when you are stable and on the outside but I've worked a lot in acute psychiatry and, yes, the whole thing is fucked. I only trust 1 psychiatrist out of the dozens I've met and worked with. Yes, do your best to stay outside of the psych. circus, yes, placebo effect is huge, yes, try counseling because it was designed to help people in temporary, situational states, etc. I am definitely not singing the praises of psychiatry--it almost killed me last year and I would be happy to talk about that to anyone if they're interested but I'll leave it out here.

tl;dr antidepressants are relatively low-risk, high-reward agents. If it helps, just do it but be educated about how to take yourself off of them correctly so that you can take control of your own placebo/neurological effect. Personal empowerment is the key and will probably fix the depression in the process

jules, on 11 December 2011 - 07:08 PM, said:

this thread is like one big watmm hug.


I had a small bout with anxiety attacks a few years ago and was prescribed Xanax by a psych. just having them on me eliminated 90% of the attacks because I knew I could stop it. that eventually led to me being able to fight them off on my own. good luck pod, you are too young to not have a chance at being happy.

Speaking of symbolism, I too have a Xanax prescription in my cabinet that stays untouched. Granted, it was a 7 year road that went from abusing benzo's and taking 30-40 mg. of Klonopin over a day to needing 1-3 mg. daily to being off of them. I can't sell that short but I am glad to know that I can have Xanax in my cabinet largely as a totem. It's there if I need it and I get the opportunity to ask myself "do I really need it" instead of gobbling them daily because your doctor told you to. The answer is "no" 99% of the time but the only way I can do this is because I know just how bad business benzo's. wind up being. Tolerance, addiction, withdrawal, brain destruction....they are the kerosene of the drug world.

[chimera slot mom]

verticalhold, on 11 December 2011 - 02:25 PM, said:

The Pod, on 10 December 2011 - 03:49 PM, said:

Have you ever been put on Anti Depressants by a doctor? I've been rather depressed for at least 9 months now.

I think this is generally good for stand-up comedy

Edited by chimera slot mom, 12 December 2011 - 12:32 AM.

[xxx]

^^so fucking funny...one of the few guys that get me to laugh out loud. He even did it without me seeing or hearing him. He's in a movie coming out called "Young Adult" and I read a blip about it on some internet site. He has a love scene with Charlize Theron. He was complaining about how terrible it was to be in his underwear next to the "world's most perfect physical specimen". The interviewer asked if he took anything away from the experience and he said "yes. Post-traumatic stress disorder. Everytime a car backfires, I think I'm getting naked". I laughed like an idiot in solitude. It's the way he can twist things in the delivery. I mostly can't stand the show "King of Queens" but I saw one episode where he was trying to get with a girl but was really nervous. Desperate to make conversation, he asked "do you ever wonder what your dead relatives look like...right now?" fuckfjgfhfjgjhfjfgjfhjfgh

[Murveman]

Just thought I should add (based on my experience): I wouldn't recommend smoking weed to make yourself feel better. Whenever I did that I'd end up thinking really deep about everything with a negative/cynical perspective and make myself feel worse. I'd convince myself that being depressed was fucking stupid and I should feel stupid for being depressed.

I do, however, recommend smoking it to supplement a good experience, or if you're already in a good mood. I enjoy nature parks, so I'd get blazed and then walk around in a forest. It was always a nice experience, it gave me a reason to get out of the house and exercise, and in the end I felt better.

Sadly, it's winter now, and I assume seasonal depression will sneak up on me like it always does.

tl;dr: Smoke weed to supplement a good experience; don't smoke to try and make a bad experience good.

[lumpenprol]

its clear vamos scorcho is quite a potent anti-disparaissant

[kokeboka]

I was in therapy for depression a few years ago and I also work in mental health, so I've been (am) kind of on both worlds. I can tell you there are about 4 or 5 different types of widely used antidepressants (of which SSRI's are one), depending on what they do to your brain chemistry. Some have huge side effects, some are meant to calm people down, some are meant to give you a little extra energy. Don't be daunted by the idea of side effects, everyone has their own reaction to antidepressants.

A popular misconception is that psychiatrists, psychologists or drugs solve problems - we don't. People solve their own problems. All shrinks and drugs do is help you see things differently when you get stuck in a vicious cycle. You're in control and you have to find your way out, but you don't have to be in this alone.

There's marketing BS aplenty about depression and anti-depressants. To my knowledge, there are no real scientific evidence that supports that stuff like ginkgo or omega 3 do anything to your mental state. Also, taking an online test is not a real diagnosis tool for depression (tests very rarely are, even when done by psychologists themselves). If you want to know a bit more about the technicalities of depression, what your doctor prescribed to you, (or if you just feel like talking about whatever) PM me.

[TwiddleBot]

Smettingham Rutherford IV, on 11 December 2011 - 07:14 PM, said:

jules, on 11 December 2011 - 07:08 PM, said:

this thread is like one big watmm hug.


I had a small bout with anxiety attacks a few years ago and was prescribed Xanax by a psych. just having them on me eliminated 90% of the attacks because I knew I could stop it. that eventually led to me being able to fight them off on my own. good luck pod, you are too young to not have a chance at being happy.

i should probably consider getting a refill on those...they were lifesavers last year...almost daily panic attacks, no sleep....thats a situation where a pill comes in handy.

I've got beta blockers.. They don't help with the sleep, but they kill the fight or flight response so my heart isn't racing at 140-150bpm.  Likewise since I've had them, anxiety has mostly gone away for the same reasons.

OT went to see 'Melancholia' last week.  Several of the people I went with had likewise experienced chronic depression and they left the theatre in shell shock and wandered around dazed for a day or two after.  A lot of it reminded me of the extreme ends of depression.. time dragging to a halt, catatonia, inescapable doom lol, another pretty wrist-slasher from mr Trier lol

Edited by TwiddleBot, 12 December 2011 - 08:38 AM.

[chax]

I would absolutely recommend going on anti-depressants, but it can be difficult to find the right ones that will work for you, be prepared to try several different kinds and be in a weird state mentally until you find something that works for you. it's really important to not give up on medication and to keep trying different things and to allow time (several months) for stuff to start working. peoples bad experiences with medication means they aren't on the right kind or the right dosage, it just takes time to find what works because everybody\s different. i've been recently diagnosed as bi-polar, and now i'm on effexor xr and abilify after  2 years alcoholism/drug abuse nearly killed me. remember not to drink while on medication because it will mess you up even more and yu definitely don't want to end up at the hospital. good luck with everything!

[Root5]

chax, on 12 December 2011 - 05:08 PM, said:

I would absolutely recommend going on anti-depressants, but it can be difficult to find the right ones that will work for you, be prepared to try several different kinds and be in a weird state mentally until you find something that works for you. it's really important to not give up on medication and to keep trying different things and to allow time (several months) for stuff to start working. peoples bad experiences with medication means they aren't on the right kind or the right dosage, it just takes time to find what works because everybody\s different. i've been recently diagnosed as bi-polar, and now i'm on effexor xr and abilify after  2 years alcoholism/drug abuse nearly killed me. remember not to drink while on medication because it will mess you up even more and yu definitely don't want to end up at the hospital. good luck with everything!

I'd say that people's bad experiences with medication often mean they aren't on the right kind or right dosage.

[tompty]

marf, on 11 December 2011 - 09:37 AM, said:

the way i conquered my depression and anxiety was using mental chess on my brain. what ever was bothering me I had to check mate that shit.

this is my new mantra until 2012. well done sir

[rixxx]

I think it's  also important to look at your lifestyle, you you spend too much time on the internet?


try to get a good routine in place, try not to stay in too much (exercise releases endorphins and lowers stress hormones) and eat plenty of fruit and vegetables (walnuts/oily fish and pineapple are good for brain function and serotonin production)

[Smettingham Rutherford IV]

TwiddleBot, on 12 December 2011 - 08:37 AM, said:

Smettingham Rutherford IV, on 11 December 2011 - 07:14 PM, said:

jules, on 11 December 2011 - 07:08 PM, said:

this thread is like one big watmm hug.


I had a small bout with anxiety attacks a few years ago and was prescribed Xanax by a psych. just having them on me eliminated 90% of the attacks because I knew I could stop it. that eventually led to me being able to fight them off on my own. good luck pod, you are too young to not have a chance at being happy.

i should probably consider getting a refill on those...they were lifesavers last year...almost daily panic attacks, no sleep....thats a situation where a pill comes in handy.

I've got beta blockers.. They don't help with the sleep, but they kill the fight or flight response so my heart isn't racing at 140-150bpm.  Likewise since I've had them, anxiety has mostly gone away for the same reasons.

OT went to see 'Melancholia' last week.  Several of the people I went with had likewise experienced chronic depression and they left the theatre in shell shock and wandered around dazed for a day or two after.  A lot of it reminded me of the extreme ends of depression.. time dragging to a halt, catatonia, inescapable doom lol, another pretty wrist-slasher from mr Trier lol

wow...it might be a tendency towards self-masochism, but i gotta check this movie out now.