22 replies to this topic

[Disappearer]

While making a 303-based track, whether it's a plain standard acid track or an electronica / so called "acid breaks" mid-90's revival one with either the real thing or VST emulation / samples how do we approach bass? I mean first thing coming to mind is that since 303 is typically for basslines using that is enough and we don't need any other "basslines" in the mix. But I am talking about tracks like Hardfloor's remix in Anne Clark's Our Darkness, Josh Wink's Higher State of Consciousness (yeah I know some claim it's actually a MC-202 there but you get the point) where the 303 IS the main feature i.e the track being built around a 303 pattern twisted around using cutoff and resonance... My point is, during the parts those parameters give that higher frequency / screaming result in the 303 pattern, isn't the bass part practically cancelled leaving the track bass-less? And that's ok if it lasts for a 3 sec climax but what if it's a vocal track where the higher frequency attributes kick in for a whole chorus for example? Should the mix stay like that? Is another synth playing an additional bassline needed? Maybe a sub-bass for the whole track or while 303 reaches climax? Or would that give it a muddy/too much bass result? Maybe EQue it at a specific point?
I know production/mixing virtually has no rules but what's the general approach followed in acid tracks like that? I actually got the same question for juno hoovers (since they are mainly "bass" sounds too, is there another bassline needed?) but I guess that's a whole other case. Thanks.

[chunky]

resonance doesnt go to 100% feedback so the bass stays pretty strong even with resonance all the way up
best way is to listen to what you're doing? :-)
this is on a real 303, a vst will be something completely different and react in different ways
many 303 patterns are 3 octaves anyway
you could avoid the lowest octave on the 303
then use sub bass from another synth
i think of 303 as electric guitar then 101 or modular as a sub bass synth

[yek]

just eq the 303?

[psn]

Use heavy compression on the 303.

[Disappearer]

Thanks for the replies. Last two would make sense if they were more detailed. EQ the 303 when? During the whole track so it's not really a bassline and use another one instead from another synth? I could use some more detailed tips on how to handle that, same goes for the compression on it. Where? How? Aiming for what?

[soundwave]

the 303 resonance does have an unusual hi frequency zest in the resonance which is more squelchy in earlier models and metallic in later ones (something to do with the different op amps used or something) and is a very unique element to the 303's sound which even the analogue clones struggle to replicate perfectly and as self oscillating resonance sound pretty pap on most digital stuff you may not get what your after with VST's alone

like its been mentioned the right kind of distortion/overdrive with a little compression will help

[Disappearer]

My question is not about gettting that screaming Josh Wink effect. I do know distortion and self oscillation is the key (something I m sure VSTs cant really emulate well so I guess i am screwed). My question is about 303 being all about bass and what happens with the whole bass foundation of an acid track when cutoff and res touch those higher frequency points. Is another bass synth needed? It isnt? I tried to be as much clear as I could in the original post. :/

Edited by Disappearer, 18 April 2012 - 11:07 AM.

[chunky]

geezer: get PAS spectrum analyzer demo then take a look at 50-150hz area while playing the song you want to analyse



didnt realise there were 2 303 models
my first 303 was shit and my more recent one is awesome but the memory chips recently went funny
sounds different to the x0xb0x, not exactly worse, but different, like two different people are unique

Edited by chunky, 18 April 2012 - 11:16 AM.

[chunky]

er, you can choose whether to add another bass line or not
303 as surprise guitar riffing
303 as squelchy nonsense
both tracks use an extra bass line from a modular synth

303 is quite flexible and u can use it in different octave ranged in the same track and put other bass lines in too
why dont you just make some trax and listen to what works for your own personal taste

[chunky]

http://pas-products.com/analive.html

[Mcdergbit]

we don't approach bass

er, you can choose whether to add another bass line or not
303 as surprise guitar riffing
303 as squelchy nonsense
both tracks use an extra bass line from a modular synth

303 is quite flexible and u can use it in different octave ranged in the same track and put other bass lines in too
why dont you just make some trax and listen to what works for your own personal taste

Very cool tracks. are they yours?

[Mcdergbit]

sorry for that silly top comment wasn't suppose to be there!

[kaini]

if you listen to higher state of consciousness i think there's two lines going on... one with the fucked up res/cutoff, and another which replicates it, but without... the second 'bassline' pattern replicates the first, but mightn't even be a 303, could be an sh-101 or something. it has very short attack and release.

[BCM]

not always necessary by any means, but a nice deep synth bass with no stereotypical tweaking of cutoff/resonance etc can (imo) augment a lone acid riff very nicely. adds an underlying groove to the track which can add body and dynamics. in my experience a simple bassline of just a few notes usually works well in this regard to counterpoint the often more complex and detailed acid sounds.

[Mcdergbit]

if you listen to higher state of consciousness i think there's two lines going on... one with the fucked up res/cutoff, and another which replicates it, but without... the second 'bassline' pattern replicates the first, but mightn't even be a 303, could be an sh-101 or something. it has very short attack and release.

the second acid line is a regular 303, no doubt. the main one with the crazy (self oscillating?) filter is claimed by many to be an mc-202. sounds nothing like it to me (i've used one for 5 years now). it has that metallic sound of the 303 (before he turns the filter up), 202 is much softer.

my guess:

Edited by Mcdergbit, 18 April 2012 - 06:10 PM.

[cloudbreaker]

Also bear in mind that a lot of tracks that feature the 303 have the kick drum doing a lot of the subfrequency duties. That said, filling in the midrange with a clean version probably isn't the worst idea.

[extherium]

Pretty off-topic, but anyway.... One thing I've always wondered is why companies don't revisit their older synths. I mean, aside from the "rarity" or "limited availability" of the item, demand must play a crucial part if an original 303 can command a $2000+ price tag on eBay. Would these companies not benefit from bringing out a newer model?

[BCM]

apparently Roland doesn't think so...

basically it's all about the bottom line for Roland these days - they're a huge corporation with shareholders etc and have a business model (in terms of their sythesizers) which they obviously feel is good and makes a profit - ie put the same cheap DSP chip in everything and package it in different plastic boxes to give the impression of choice. it's not really a problem though as other, smaller firms have now taken up the torch - you can't buy a new TB-303 no, but you can buy a brand new x0xb0x or a Future Retro Revolution etc and achieve the same sound.

[soundwave]

if you listen to higher state of consciousness i think there's two lines going on... one with the fucked up res/cutoff, and another which replicates it, but without... the second 'bassline' pattern replicates the first, but mightn't even be a 303, could be an sh-101 or something. it has very short attack and release.

the second acid line is a regular 303, no doubt. the main one with the crazy (self oscillating?) filter is claimed by many to be an mc-202. sounds nothing like it to me (i've used one for 5 years now). it has that metallic sound of the 303 (before he turns the filter up), 202 is much softer.

my guess:

you can also do the same with the squelch function on this

like ive said self osscilating filtr resonance is the achilles heels of digital stuff but you may get away using two sound sources goibg thru the same overdrive fx

[Disappearer]

if you listen to higher state of consciousness i think there's two lines going on... one with the fucked up res/cutoff, and another which replicates it, but without... the second 'bassline' pattern replicates the first, but mightn't even be a 303, could be an sh-101 or something. it has very short attack and release.

the second acid line is a regular 303, no doubt. the main one with the crazy (self oscillating?) filter is claimed by many to be an mc-202. sounds nothing like it to me (i've used one for 5 years now). it has that metallic sound of the 303 (before he turns the filter up), 202 is much softer.

my guess:

As far as I know (and as far I can hear) the most likely scenario is that mc-202 was a rumor and that it is indeed a 303, granted a Devil Fish-modded one. What a legendary track though eh? I think it might be the most popular acid track ever seeing it was a HUGE club anthem in 1995 even among more "mainstream" club goers while managing to be a top tune at the same time.
Yet again, "dance music" back then was something much different than today...

Edited by Disappearer, 20 April 2012 - 03:49 PM.

[Disappearer]

geezer: get PAS spectrum analyzer demo then take a look at 50-150hz area while playing the song you want to analyse



didnt realise there were 2 303 models
my first 303 was shit and my more recent one is awesome but the memory chips recently went funny
sounds different to the x0xb0x, not exactly worse, but different, like two different people are unique

er, you can choose whether to add another bass line or not
303 as surprise guitar riffing
303 as squelchy nonsense
both tracks use an extra bass line from a modular synth

303 is quite flexible and u can use it in different octave ranged in the same track and put other bass lines in too
why dont you just make some trax and listen to what works for your own personal taste

So apart the fact everything could be used in a number of different ways, if I get things right, it seems the general impression is that the cutoff/res 303 line is more efficiently used as a midrange+ "melody" part with another simpler, some octaves lower 303/other modular synth being the bassline.
Chunky, your posts have been the most helpful ones, thanks mate. I am gonna try PAS spectrum analyzer although I am not quite sure what do you suggest to do with it in this case. Looking for a hole at 50-150hz and fill it at all costs with a sub-bass line? Or, make the 303 line fill it or what? Second track is pretty good by the way, cool video too.

Edited by Disappearer, 20 April 2012 - 04:09 PM.

[chunky]

spectrum analyser cant write a song for you but you can look at a lot of tracks and see what frequency ranges that are used for different parts. you can see if the bassline has a lot of harmonics or whether it is just a few harmonics. if you have a big monitor speaker you can just put your hand on the cone and feel the bass.
just listened to that josh wink track, i can hear a real 303 in the background later on but the main bass line doesnt sound like a vanilla 303, maybe it's a distorted 303 or a 303clone, check it out on the spectrum analyser you'll be able to see the resonant frequency go up and down as dude plays the cutoff hehe. listen to the way the cutoff gets modulated quickly, you cant do that with a knob on a real 303 unless it's modded. safe

Edited by chunky, 22 April 2012 - 03:55 AM.

[chunky]