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The Quinnspiracy Theory, Tropes vs. Women in Video Games & #gamergate


KovalainenFanBoy

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These are ridiculous people who are not worth discussing. It's like if we were to make an 11 page thread about the rantings of the homeless guy you ran into last weekend. It's not worthy of anyone's time, and it only serves to polarize people. But it is actually anti-feminist to take a position of criticizing the patriarchy and then use that criticism to request the patriarchy fix the problem. It would be feminist to take action yourself to alter the culture, and to appeal to the supposedly misrepresented minority by producing games for them, or at the very least games that line up with your personal values on the matter. Feminism is not complaining to the patriarchy about the patriarchy and requesting the patriarchy help you change the problem. That is only further emphasizing the dependence of females on men. At the very least if your criticisms are valid then there is a good business opportunity awaiting you if you produce a product for this underrepresented group.

this line of reasoning seems pretty bogus. in no meaningful sense can it be said that a critique of sexist themes and imagery in video games is "anti-feminist" if it is not also supplement by the creation of a new game lacking in said sexism. it is not the responsibility of a critic to also be a game developer. similarly for a critique of racist themes in films to be valid a critic is not required to also create a non-racist film.

i think your line of reasoning here is kind of why this issue is so controversial. it's odd that you won't acknowledge that there is this sexism in the gaming world but you have no problem claiming that critics of it are "anti-feminist." that seems pretty hypocritical imo.

it is true that it's not the responsibility of a critic to be a developer, but it is their responsibility to show the way. which in this case they don't. how to make games less sexist? i dunno, we're in the dark just as we were before, and we have gained no insight whatsoever, certainly not on the mechanics of sexism in games (which can't be reduced to the extremely flimsy pseudo-proppian concept of the trope, a concept which is useless unless you address its significance within a larger structure, which is precisely the difference between the abstract notion of the "trope" and the concrete tools of the various formalisms and structuralisms which it resembles.) what kind of criticism is that?

 

the truth is the only thing this brand of feminism can do is lampshading the fact that there's sexism in videogames. this is worthy in itself, especially given how thin the skin of gamers has proven to be, but it is what it is. you've got to start somewhere i guess.

 

the role of critique (if we are to use this word and its unfortunate association with neokantism and contemporary ethics, aka extremely reactionary conservatism posing as the purest heirs of the French Revolution) is not to abstractly negate or point out what is "bad", but to mediate an abstract idea and give pointers on how it will become concrete through an analytic exposition of the logic of a situation and what can be negated in it.

 

i think it's fair to say that this sort of criticism only produces lists of don'ts devoid of context which, in the absence of any actual prospect of how gender equality is going to arrive to gaming, can only be aimed at the patriarchy and in any case don't really tell much about what should be done in their place.

 

two other points are how little sarkeesian in particular deals with gameplay and game mechanics, and how often she just complains about motifs which aren't specific to gaming at all (such as the damsel in distress).

 

however some of the pieces kotaku has run on labour and gender in the game industry are almost good, because at least they aim at the right place, and it's easier to infer what should be from them.

 

 

anyway i'm off to write Capital, the sarkeesian version. it's 600 pages of the sentence "there are classes under capitalism" repeated over and over, i'm sure this is going to be a major breakthrough for socialism.

I'm not convinced that your particular notion of "critique" is necessary here. some one made some videos surveying some instances of sexism in the gaming world and I don't think there is any need for her to pave the way for a completely new gaming zeitgeist. I think it's perfectly valid to open up a discussion of the subject by exposing this sexism. she's not a philosopher or a theorist. and anyway my point was simply to address the notion that she is "anti-feminist" for urging a non-sexist paradigm that would include games made by men.

 

furthermore, the fact that a significant portion of the response has been so absurdly hypocritical and hostile suggests to that her simple observational criticisms were practically more than they could reasonably handle. seems to me she let the cat out of the bag and thus forced the community to acknowledge (or foolishly deny) a neglected issue. I don't think it's reasonable to place the onus of envisioning a new paradigm completely on her. like, why isn't the gaming community already doing that? and why are people bending over backwards to deny her points and yet simultaneously ready to hurl epithets at her at the drop of a hat? ("anti feminist," "misandrist," "slut," etc)

 

 

well, i agree with the second point you make - the gamer community is a bloody tragedy and it's a good thing that gender is now almost (but not really) one of the issues that are on the agenda.

 

i'll also add that i don't have anything against the actual content of her videos - i mean, what she points out is very obviously true. sometimes it's too literal maybe but this isn't important. she even cites positive examples sometimes, but in a very superficial, story and trope-based way which doesn't really engage with games as games (a bit of philosophy is sometimes needed i guess even for non-scholar non-philosopher youtube talking heads.)

 

my two points are basically that

1) feminism is politics and politics is the work of a subject which unfolds an ideal.

1b) pseudo-social science and "stating the facts" is often useless when it comes to thinking the categories of the subject and its processes

2) the "trope" is a poorly constructed concept

 

it is essential to build a feminist subject in gaming, and this isn't necessarily done through making games. and this is the task of feminists, not of the obviously reactionary gamer community (re "why isn't the gaming community already doing that?".)

 

but stirring shit up is always good. the thing is i'm sure nothing will come out of this if a more subjective approach doesn't come into the picture.

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These are ridiculous people who are not worth discussing. It's like if we were to make an 11 page thread about the rantings of the homeless guy you ran into last weekend. It's not worthy of anyone's time, and it only serves to polarize people. But it is actually anti-feminist to take a position of criticizing the patriarchy and then use that criticism to request the patriarchy fix the problem. It would be feminist to take action yourself to alter the culture, and to appeal to the supposedly misrepresented minority by producing games for them, or at the very least games that line up with your personal values on the matter. Feminism is not complaining to the patriarchy about the patriarchy and requesting the patriarchy help you change the problem. That is only further emphasizing the dependence of females on men. At the very least if your criticisms are valid then there is a good business opportunity awaiting you if you produce a product for this underrepresented group.

 

this line of reasoning seems pretty bogus. in no meaningful sense can it be said that a critique of sexist themes and imagery in video games is "anti-feminist" if it is not also supplement by the creation of a new game lacking in said sexism. it is not the responsibility of a critic to also be a game developer. similarly for a critique of racist themes in films to be valid a critic is not required to also create a non-racist film.

i think your line of reasoning here is kind of why this issue is so controversial. it's odd that you won't acknowledge that there is this sexism in the gaming world but you have no problem claiming that critics of it are "anti-feminist." that seems pretty hypocritical imo.

it is true that it's not the responsibility of a critic to be a developer, but it is their responsibility to show the way. which in this case they don't. how to make games less sexist? i dunno, we're in the dark just as we were before, and we have gained no insight whatsoever, certainly not on the mechanics of sexism in games (which can't be reduced to the extremely flimsy pseudo-proppian concept of the trope, a concept which is useless unless you address its significance within a larger structure, which is precisely the difference between the abstract notion of the "trope" and the concrete tools of the various formalisms and structuralisms which it resembles.) what kind of criticism is that?

 

the truth is the only thing this brand of feminism can do is lampshading the fact that there's sexism in videogames. this is worthy in itself, especially given how thin the skin of gamers has proven to be, but it is what it is. you've got to start somewhere i guess.

 

the role of critique (if we are to use this word and its unfortunate association with neokantism and contemporary ethics, aka extremely reactionary conservatism posing as the purest heirs of the French Revolution) is not to abstractly negate or point out what is "bad", but to mediate an abstract idea and give pointers on how it will become concrete through an analytic exposition of the logic of a situation and what can be negated in it.

 

i think it's fair to say that this sort of criticism only produces lists of don'ts devoid of context which, in the absence of any actual prospect of how gender equality is going to arrive to gaming, can only be aimed at the patriarchy and in any case don't really tell much about what should be done in their place.

 

two other points are how little sarkeesian in particular deals with gameplay and game mechanics, and how often she just complains about motifs which aren't specific to gaming at all (such as the damsel in distress).

 

however some of the pieces kotaku has run on labour and gender in the game industry are almost good, because at least they aim at the right place, and it's easier to infer what should be from them.

 

 

anyway i'm off to write Capital, the sarkeesian version. it's 600 pages of the sentence "there are classes under capitalism" repeated over and over, i'm sure this is going to be a major breakthrough for socialism.

I'm not convinced that your particular notion of "critique" is necessary here. some one made some videos surveying some instances of sexism in the gaming world and I don't think there is any need for her to pave the way for a completely new gaming zeitgeist. I think it's perfectly valid to open up a discussion of the subject by exposing this sexism. she's not a philosopher or a theorist. and anyway my point was simply to address the notion that she is "anti-feminist" for urging a non-sexist paradigm that would include games made by men.

furthermore, the fact that a significant portion of the response has been so absurdly hypocritical and hostile suggests to that her simple observational criticisms were practically more than they could reasonably handle. seems to me she let the cat out of the bag and thus forced the community to acknowledge (or foolishly deny) a neglected issue. I don't think it's reasonable to place the onus of envisioning a new paradigm completely on her. like, why isn't the gaming community already doing that? and why are people bending over backwards to deny her points and yet simultaneously ready to hurl epithets at her at the drop of a hat? ("anti feminist," "misandrist," "slut," etc)

well, i agree with the second point you make - the gamer community is a bloody tragedy and it's a good thing that gender is now almost (but not really) one of the issues that are on the agenda.

 

i'll also add that i don't have anything against the actual content of her videos - i mean, what she points out is very obviously true. sometimes it's too literal maybe but this isn't important. she even cites positive examples sometimes, but in a very superficial, story and trope-based way which doesn't really engage with games as games (a bit of philosophy is sometimes needed i guess even for non-scholar non-philosopher youtube talking heads.)

 

my two points are basically that

1) feminism is politics and politics is the work of a subject which unfolds an ideal.

1b) pseudo-social science and "stating the facts" is often useless when it comes to thinking the categories of the subject and its processes

2) the "trope" is a poorly constructed concept

 

it is essential to build a feminist subject in gaming, and this isn't necessarily done through making games. and this is the task of feminists, not of the obviously reactionary gamer community (re "why isn't the gaming community already doing that?".)

 

but stirring shit up is always good. the thing is i'm sure nothing will come out of this if a more subjective approach doesn't come into the picture.

I think we're more or less in agreement but perhaps I'm less bothered by the lack of a theoretical thrust behind her vids. I too am always a fan of shit-stirring and perhaps it will lead to new developments in the gamer world.

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Guest bitroast

[youtubehd]5RVlCvBd21w[/youtubehd]

 

this video seems well spoken and level headed.. but it kind of prompted a confusion in me.

 

it's taking the approach that gamergate was sort of stolen and blown out of proportion by people that are using the hashtag to front their anger/overreactions and give the term a bad name, but suggesting that otherwise gamergate is an ok cause for gamers to express themselves?

 

mysogny and the death threats and all that crap aside, what the hell is gamergate? I thought it was a misguided angry term to front all that bullshit pretty much from the beginning.. ?

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I feel compelled to make a video response to this.

After 80 paragraphs of neckbeard ranting, shit just got real!

 

 

Yeah, I'm a total neckbeard. Why don't you go fuck yourself while I fuck your girlfriend.

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I feel compelled to make a video response to this.

After 80 paragraphs of neckbeard ranting, shit just got real!

Yeah, I'm a total neckbeard. Why don't you go fuck yourself while I fuck your girlfriend.
Damn dawg

 

 

Edit: neckbeards plenty o' ass once they discover the existence of beardettes. They have weird sex and befoul the dorm room.

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Let your true colors shine.

 

Yeah, because you and other people in this thread using pejoratives to insult me like "neckbeard" is totally acceptable. I mean the irony of that behavior alone makes me wonder how you are so blatantly unaware of your own hypocrisy. I'm merely disagreeing with you all for starters. It's indicative of a problem with the entire debate when I can't criticize this person without receiving hate. It's funny as well, because your side wants to characterize passionate disagreement as some kind if indicator of a real problem when you're guilty of the SAME TYPE OF BEHAVIOR. If anything it's worse, because you're being purposefully insulting instead of attempting any type of actual conversation on the matter. You're also assuming that I'm some kind of unsociable woman-hating incompetent virgin, because you've been told that the only people that could disagree with your side on this matter have to be. So, you're an indoctrinated hypocrite who reverts to pejoratives in place of actual debate. What a winner. It's also telling when certain people are so quick to throw out the "neckbeard" label. I feel like someone trying to escape their own identity? But yeah, my true colors are when someone is being an asshole to me I'm an asshole back to them. I'm not ashamed of that.

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There are a lot of things to take into consideration when it comes to this conflict and all this reactionary bullshit from almost everyone in this thread is completely futile. Treating this like a woman-haters vs. society-advancing feminists or like a feminazis/hypocrites vs. not-brainwashed individuals issue is just stupid, for both parts of it. There's a lot of shit on both parties' plates. But whatever. Keep calling each other neckbeards/mysogynists/retards. I would recommend you to do some research, but seeing how biased each and every article about this topic is... except a certain article someone posted, I think it was the New Yorker one? That one was good

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No one is even acknowledging the fact that this woman is basically trying to dictate what kind of content men consume in their video games by deeming certain content as unacceptable or as negative for society etc etc. It's preposterous. If I want to murder rape and kill in a video game I should be allowed to, because I'm a free adult human being. She also doesn't acknowledge the fact that games are increasingly too easy, because of the pressure for accessibility. It literally ruins games, but she doesn't care that her actions are going to ruin games for people. She only cares about promoting her narrative, because her narrative is what is benefiting her financially. There is no social justice about it. There is selfishness. Her position about women being harassed for just wanting to be apart of gaming doesn't even hold up under close scrutiny. You can see the examples of women who have successfully been apart of gaming for years. Of course, it's a process of evolution, because the more women show interest in games the more women who will be involved in them. No one fucking cares. Actually, many many many people are happy that women are into games now. Fuck man. You know how many girls get pissed off about their bf playing games and shit. Like why the fuck would we be upset about it? Do I want my games ruined to make them accessible for women? Hell no. if you want your games a certain way then your demand will dictate content. Until then it is what it is. You want to make a game that appeals to women. Great! Do it! But don't attempt to dictate that every game should appeal to everyone. That's not how art works. That is called watering shit down. That's why most movies suck balls. That's why pop music sucks. Because they get watered down to appeal to a mass amount of people to maximize profit. The good majority of people are pissed off about the mere preposterous position being taken, because it defies logic and reality. It denies what is actually happening. That's where people get frustrated. Being met with such an unreasonable stance on the subject. I mean for the argument to even make sense it has to assert that people are not capable of even discerning fantasy from reality. simulacra from the real world. It's utter nonsense. The thing is that most of you can't understand the conversation fully unless you game a lot like I do. I've been gaming a long time. I've seen how they evolved. I've been apart of the culture. The idea that dudes wouldn't want women in gaming is the most ridiculous thing that could be said. It is a reality though that most women aren't as into games as men are. Even the female gamers. They generally opt for games with easier control schemes or less tedious depth, but obviously that will slowly change over time. But men who have been gaming their entire life and are VERY good at games need a high degree of challenge. There has to be a certain learning curve to the game and a large amount of depth for it to remain interesting. We also don't want our games censored. We want raw gritty shit, and part of tapping into the raw emotions of men involves having scenarios with women. Some of them positive and some of them negative. We just want good fun art, and we don't want the world to be nerfed by bullshit. Her argument is just the "violent games make violent people" repackaged into a feminist paradigm. It's gross.

 

Obviously, there are very skilled female gamers, but it's a small amount compared to men. It's a growing population of course. That's why this is so ridiculous. She's disrupting a natural progression for no reason. These things will all happen on their own as female involvement continues to grow. It's silliness though. You can tell she's just preying on this shit too. I'm also not denying that there are assholes out there being assholes to women but that is hardly something that is confined only to gamer culture.

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It's just video games. They're not going away.

 

There is a long running pattern of games not being challenging enough due to high production costs and pressure for developers to increase accessibility to maximize profits. Having a strongly vocal person whose career is based on the fact that she promote the idea that games cater to the types of players she represents is bad. It's already affecting developers. As can be seen by the statements from DICE after Anita's presentation with them. Obviously, there are a lot of developers and a lot of games so as long as the balance is not altered too much there should be something for everyone. Hence my argument; Stop complaining about the games being made and start making the ones you want to play. If there is a market it gets made. That's how it has always been. That is how it will continue to be.

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imo Anita is merely critiquing latent sexist issues and calling for more diversity. what's the fucking problem?

 

it seems to me you feel threatened that in light of this it might be harder for you to sit back and enjoy the privileges of being comfortable with that status quo and consuming games that suit you with great ease. furthermore you kind of show your hand by being both outraged by her "demands" and simultaneously glibly demanding that if she doesn't like it she should make her own games. the problem is that you're being a hypocrite -- by your own standards you have no right to bitch about games moving in a direction you don't like, bc if you don't like it why don't you just make your own games bro?

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So Adieu, if you yell hypocrite loud and often enough then that absolves you from your own hypocrisy right? Like hey let's have a reasonable dialogue but I'm gonna tell you to go fuck yourself while I fuck your girlfriend. Yeah, keep it classy, dogg. I wrote, what, 2 posts in this thread before you've 1) said wildly inappropriate shit I could easily have reported you for, that would be considered fighting words anywhere but the internets 2) made up your mind about me and 3) made up your mind that I've made up my mind about you and 4) called me a hypocrite. lol. Take a chill pill, homie, you are taking this WAY too serious.

 

Anyway, I find Anita's videos pretty boring but I also just see them as a pretty benign critique. Like hey, developers, check out this potential target market you're alienating. Take it or leave it, it's your profit margins. She's not dictating shit, she's not starting a civil war, she's just calling it as she sees it. How does that hurt you? How is she pissing in your corn flakes? Developers can still do what they want. There will always be games for insecure boys that wanna feel big and strong.

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I watched a few of those Sarkeesian videos and it's hardly groundbreaking stuff that someone who is familiar with feminist critique wouldn't have picked up on. I also don't see what the cause for outrage is either from the other side. People are strange.

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I watched a few of those Sarkeesian videos and it's hardly groundbreaking stuff that someone who is familiar with feminist critique wouldn't have picked up on. I also don't see what the cause for outrage is either from the other side. People are strange.

 

Yeah, this.

 

Oh, but also she's not a "tr00 gamer" and she's going to make games TOO EASY for PC MASTER RACE. She actually plays ANGRY BIRDS. IMPOSTER. HOW DARE SHE HOW FUCKING DARE SHE WE HATE HER WE HATE H [incomprehensible guttural expressions of gamer outrage]

 

Humanity is completely doomed.

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