drillkicker Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Autechre said in their interview with Sound On Sound regarding Confield that they ran analogue sequencers into each other and somehow crossfaded the rhythms from one to the next. Here's the full passage "On Confield we also used analogue sequencers and drum machines, because you can do a lot with restarting patterns. You can hack things and maybe use a control volume to determine what step the drum machine is playing from. Perhaps you send that control volume from an analogue sequencer, so the drum machine is skipping around. And then you get another analogue sequencer to drive that analogue sequencer with a different timing. Immediately you have something that some people would call random, but I would say is quantifiable. "It seems that for a lot of people, if they hear something that doesn't sound regular, they assume it's random. If live musicians were playing it, they'd probably call it jazz or something. But the fact that it's coming out of a computer, as they perceive it, somehow seems to make it different. For me it's just messing around with a lot of analogue sequencers and drum machines. It's like saying, 'I want this to go from this beat to that beat over this amount of time, with this curve, which is shaped according to this equation.' "Or you want all the sounds and the way the rhythm works to change, and you don't quite know how long the transform will take. You can then build a patch to do the transform, and you do it by ear with a fader. We may have one fader that determines how often a snare does a little roll or skip, and another thing that listens and says 'If that snare plays that roll three times, then I'll do this.' We don't use random operators because they're irritating to work with — every time you run the process it sounds different. How we play the system dictates how the system responds." Does anyone know how you would actually configure a sequencer to do this? I don't actually have an analogue sequencer, but it seems like something you should be able to do with software ones. I get the last part where he's talking about counters in Max, but I've never heard of someone manipulating them in such a way that would allow formulated transition between patterns. Anyone here have an idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhylumZunami Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 very mind-blowing stuff imo i also love his "random" rant, i had to say almost the exact thing to my coworker the other day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psn Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 The description seems pretty straightforward, but the nomenclature seems to be slightly lost in translation. "Control volumes" means "control voltages", I guess? And by "analog sequencers" he means sequencers that output analog voltages, ie variable voltages between 0-5 instead of just triggers/impulses? In that case I take it that one sequencer outputs a timed pattern of voltages that in turn affect various parameters on another sequencer, ie the start position, the restart, etc. And that there is some scaling between the control voltages and the range of settings on those parameters. And that a chain of such sequencers build complexity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psn Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Also, was that around the time they started using their Eurorack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drillkicker Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 That description seems pretty logical, psn. I'll have to figure out a way to configure something like that, but sequencers are kind of a pain in Max. I'm not sure when they had their Eurorack, so I can't say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psn Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 I'd imagine combining Max with some "analog" sequencers via Expert Sleepers would be a step in the same direction? For instance on the Oberkorn sequencer there is a five bit "positioning" input that lets you adress the 32 steps by inputting five gates/triggers. That way you can skip around the sequence based on five different gate sequencers, for instance. Also, there's a bucketload of Eurorack modules around for logic sequencing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drillkicker Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 Does Expert Sleepers have any sequencers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zleep Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 I remember that interview and I did build something like that in Max, and result is pretty cool! For the analog sequencer, I think it doesn't have to be a dedicated sequencer, I mean mc202, tr606 they all can be used as a sequencer, and they have cv in/outs. And I always suspect the drum machine mentioned is cr8000, since you can triger pattern/restart using cv, and they used it a lot in the draft album. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drillkicker Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 I remember that interview and I did build something like that in Max, and result is pretty cool! For the analog sequencer, I think it doesn't have to be a dedicated sequencer, I mean mc202, tr606 they all can be used as a sequencer, and they have cv in/outs. And I always suspect the drum machine mentioned is cr8000, since you can triger pattern/restart using cv, and they used it a lot in the draft album. Would it be possible to emulate those sequencers somehow in Max? None of my gear has any sequencing in it at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psn Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 I remember that interview and I did build something like that in Max, and result is pretty cool! For the analog sequencer, I think it doesn't have to be a dedicated sequencer, I mean mc202, tr606 they all can be used as a sequencer, and they have cv in/outs. And I always suspect the drum machine mentioned is cr8000, since you can triger pattern/restart using cv, and they used it a lot in the draft album. Would it be possible to emulate those sequencers somehow in Max? None of my gear has any sequencing in it at all. MC202 and TR606 only take DINSynch in, so it's you need to manipulate the synch stream to modulate the timing of the sequencers. The MC202 sequencer has a very special way of programming the rhythm. It's possible to emulate it in Max, but it would be a bit of a weird solution I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zleep Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 I remember that interview and I did build something like that in Max, and result is pretty cool! For the analog sequencer, I think it doesn't have to be a dedicated sequencer, I mean mc202, tr606 they all can be used as a sequencer, and they have cv in/outs. And I always suspect the drum machine mentioned is cr8000, since you can triger pattern/restart using cv, and they used it a lot in the draft album. Would it be possible to emulate those sequencers somehow in Max? None of my gear has any sequencing in it at all. MC202 and TR606 only take DINSynch in, so it's you need to manipulate the synch stream to modulate the timing of the sequencers. The MC202 sequencer has a very special way of programming the rhythm. It's possible to emulate it in Max, but it would be a bit of a weird solution I think. Yes, you are right, you can't do it directly, I guess a cable like expert sleeper DJ-1200 may help, I have never had a mc202 but just guess it should work with some "hack". I remember that interview and I did build something like that in Max, and result is pretty cool! For the analog sequencer, I think it doesn't have to be a dedicated sequencer, I mean mc202, tr606 they all can be used as a sequencer, and they have cv in/outs. And I always suspect the drum machine mentioned is cr8000, since you can triger pattern/restart using cv, and they used it a lot in the draft album. Would it be possible to emulate those sequencers somehow in Max? None of my gear has any sequencing in it at all. Totally, I think they mean that you can manually control the transform, the easiest way to do this to use counter object, you can control it to restart or to go to some certain step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drillkicker Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 I remember that interview and I did build something like that in Max, and result is pretty cool! For the analog sequencer, I think it doesn't have to be a dedicated sequencer, I mean mc202, tr606 they all can be used as a sequencer, and they have cv in/outs. And I always suspect the drum machine mentioned is cr8000, since you can triger pattern/restart using cv, and they used it a lot in the draft album. Would it be possible to emulate those sequencers somehow in Max? None of my gear has any sequencing in it at all. Totally, I think they mean that you can manually control the transform, the easiest way to do this to use counter object, you can control it to restart or to go to some certain step. That's interesting. I've never thought of using counter as a sequencer before, but I definitely see how it could work now. It's annoying that ae call them "faders", though. That really threw me off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceiling Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 I remember that interview and I did build something like that in Max, and result is pretty cool! For the analog sequencer, I think it doesn't have to be a dedicated sequencer, I mean mc202, tr606 they all can be used as a sequencer, and they have cv in/outs. And I always suspect the drum machine mentioned is cr8000, since you can triger pattern/restart using cv, and they used it a lot in the draft album. Would it be possible to emulate those sequencers somehow in Max? None of my gear has any sequencing in it at all. MC202 and TR606 only take DINSynch in, so it's you need to manipulate the synch stream to modulate the timing of the sequencers. The MC202 sequencer has a very special way of programming the rhythm. It's possible to emulate it in Max, but it would be a bit of a weird solution I think. Whats special about the MC202 sequencer? I used to have one but sold it sadly : ( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zleep Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 That's interesting. I've never thought of using counter as a sequencer before, but I definitely see how it could work now. It's annoying that ae call them "faders", though. That really threw me off. I think they use a midi fader to control the patch.... now I see why your topic is "fading rhythms". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drillkicker Posted June 18, 2015 Author Share Posted June 18, 2015 But how exactly do you use a fader to control midi sequences? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psn Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 In the world of analog sequencing, you can mix control signals just as you mix audio signals. Which means you can crossfade between one rhythmic pattern from one sequencer and another pattern from another sequencer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drillkicker Posted June 18, 2015 Author Share Posted June 18, 2015 Oh, well that answers the question I asked at the very beginning. Could it be possible to emulate that digitally, or is it only something that can be done with electrical voltages? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingwe Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 Oh, well that answers the question I asked at the very beginning. Could it be possible to emulate that digitally, or is it only something that can be done with electrical voltages? it could be programmed in max, but couldn't be done in a traditional sequencer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drillkicker Posted June 18, 2015 Author Share Posted June 18, 2015 So how do these faders work, then, and what do they do to the sequence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peace 7 Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 One way I've achieved similar results via DAW is by using sidechain compression / duckers, etc. For example, if you have a melody that's 6 bars and loop it, you can run a compressor on a beatz loop track that's 8 bars, using the melody output for sidechain ducking whatevz. This will skip out certain sections of the beatz loop in a manner that is interesting and not easily loop-recognizable. Such techniques can be pushed further by having the melody track send to a delay track and also use that delay track for ducking or modulation purposes. The delay send can be modified by doing the same ducking thing to it by using another melody track for variation, or by using a muted tonal/melody track that has something like a phaser on it, and if the phaser is not synced to bpm, the effects of the ducking can get pretty organic. Such send and sidechain techniques can also be used to vary synth line expression qualities, with plugins that allow MIDI or track input to vary settings. In the same vein, lotta interesting stuff can be done with vocoder plugins with melodies or rhythm parts as modulator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drillkicker Posted June 18, 2015 Author Share Posted June 18, 2015 One way I've achieved similar results via DAW is by using sidechain compression / duckers, etc. For example, if you have a melody that's 6 bars and loop it, you can run a compressor on a beatz loop track that's 8 bars, using the melody output for sidechain ducking whatevz. This will skip out certain sections of the beatz loop in a manner that is interesting and not easily loop-recognizable. Such techniques can be pushed further by having the melody track send to a delay track and also use that delay track for ducking or modulation purposes. The delay send can be modified by doing the same ducking thing to it by using another melody track for variation, or by using a muted tonal/melody track that has something like a phaser on it, and if the phaser is not synced to bpm, the effects of the ducking can get pretty organic. Such send and sidechain techniques can also be used to vary synth line expression qualities, with plugins that allow MIDI or track input to vary settings. In the same vein, lotta interesting stuff can be done with vocoder plugins with melodies or rhythm parts as modulator. I suppose you could instead have a gate on the sequence bangs in Max and have it toggle based on the sequence of another track using a separate sequencer rhythm. Then you could trigger different sequences using a larger rhythm and have it start those pattern counters at various spots by sending different numbers. That would probably produce a very similar effect to what's being mentioned in the interview. It would take a very long time to set up, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zleep Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 So how do these faders work, then, and what do they do to the sequence? There are so many ways that a fader can control the sequence, it really depends on how you want to control it. The easiest way is to use a fader to switch between patterns, lets say you have 5 patterns (presets in max), and you can map the fader midi cc value to each preset, for example, 0-25: pattern1, 26-50: pattern2 ..... and you can switch between each pattern in real time. You may also use a fader to control the total step of the sequencer, start point...... once you made a sequencer in max you will notice there are some interesting objects which you want to control Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xox Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 this could be done even in reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drillkicker Posted July 14, 2015 Author Share Posted July 14, 2015 I'm reviving this thread to inform EKT that I have managed to program the sequencers in the way that Autechre described above. What I did is run a metro object in Max into a counter with however many steps I want in my sequence, and have the numbers assigned to different sounds that I want at that spot in the sequence, and the counter resets to zero whenever the metro turns off. Basically just your regular step sequencer. But then I make another sequencer in the same way (but slower and with fewer steps), and have certain steps send a bang to a counter, with that counter's output multiplied by a certain number, which is then sent to the main sequencer, causing it to skip to a different step in the sequence periodically. I also have the second sequence attached to a counter of either 0 or 1, which decides the direction that the main sequencer is counting. To explain it more simply, I have counters (run by metros) controlling the step and direction of other counters, which end up producing a seemingly unpredictable sequence of sounds. All of the counters reset when the sequence is turned off, so that it sounds like a very randomly sliced sequence, but it actually plays exactly the same every time it is turned on. Here is an example of what it can sound like (ignoring the synth, which was obviously a very straightforward sequence): I have also started attempting to fade rhythms with this method, but haven't found anything too interesting with it. I will update again if that goes anywhere. I have tried making a groove fader, which adds a delay to every second step on the sequencer, with the delay determined by the position of the dial, but that hasn't really made anything too interesting. It does get very interesting when you start using the second sequencer to control various other aspects of your patch, which I could go into but there are so many different things you can do with it that It's best left to your own imagination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drillkicker Posted July 14, 2015 Author Share Posted July 14, 2015 I should add that the track posted above also has a lot of envelope followers configuring looping, speed, and filter cutoff of the different sounds, but it's just an example of where this technique can go as the basis of a patch and what kind of patterns it produces. I encourage you all to try it out, because it can produce a wide variety of sounds. Maybe you can even control exactly how you want the sequence to be sliced and at what specific points in the track, if that's how you prefer to do things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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