Live Performance - A New Paradigm

[wahrk]

For playing live, there are a billion things you can do, but in the software realm it always feels like:

 

a) Ableton-ish: You create one big project with everything in it. Your rendered tracks, your loops, your live-playable instruments, your effects, and whatever else are pre-prepared so you can go at it.

 

b) DJ-ish: You can load from a library rendered tracks and loops and use effects to mix and perform them.

 

The Ableton style allows you a lot of customization in the prep, but feels clunky when you want to add stuff and tweak it on the fly.

 

The DJ style allows for a lot of flexibility in the moment and requires a whole lot less preparation, but is still pretty limited in what you can match up with track, effects, etc.

 

Now imagine a setup where you prepare an individual song (or whatever) with its pieces, a layout for combing and/or moving between the pieces, and the effects you intend to use with it and save that. When performing, you have a shell with global effects and mixing tools within which you can load the individual song modules.

 

No having to cut out an effect to make room for another.

No dead effects or controls cluttering everything up when you don't need them.

No slapping together a gigantic copied and reworked project every time you need to get ready for a gig.

 

Now, can anyone tell me how the hell we can achieve something like this without painstakingly building it from the ground up in a modular environment?

 

Here are some things off the top of my head that come close:

• Traktor Remix Decks: There's no tying of effects to the saved samples. Effects are still global, you can only have 12 max, and there's not a lot of per-effect customization.
• Multiple instances of Renoise: Check out Hitori Tori for examples. Requires either a lot of prep and minimizing your use of VSTs and long samples if you intend to be beatmatching songs, since Renoise doesn't have realtime timestretching (my number one ongoing complaint about Renoise).
• Multiple instances of Ableton: This sounds like a headache already. I'm already frustrated with the lack of momentary/latch options for midi mapping in ableton, and I busted my balls building my last setup with virtual midi shenanigans. Also, multiple instances of any program this bulky worries me.
• REAPER project tabs: Was really excited about this one at first, but you can only play one tab at a time. :((( CORRECTION: This apparently does work. Experimentation, go!
• Usine: Still seems like a little too deep of a modular environment for me. Haven't even tried building something in it yet tbh. Still holding out hope with this as a last resort.

What do you guys think? Is there something out there I've overlooked? Got any ideas of how to implement something like that isn't absurdly janky?

[TubularCorporation]

My first thought was that it was something somebody more skilled than me could built in usine (or PD or Max/MSP or supercollider or csound). I didn't realize you could use Reaper like that, though, that definitely has potential, especially with some kind of hardware controller.

 

This is one of the reasons I funded Axoloti, too, since I really want to get to a point where I could carry an entire live rig in two small cases and maybe a backpack, but without using a laptop.

[wahrk]

REAPER's not really designed for performance, but I think it could be made to work. Might be too janky though.

 

I'll have to read up more on Axoloti. Seems neat.

 

 

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[Guest carlg23]

Interesting topic .. I work for artists specifically as a playback operator... And when I play live ,as infrequently as that is now.. I just make an arrangement in Ableton but in the clip view .. And I put "parts" in rows. And I can trigger different parts to play thru the song.. I find there is plenty of room for improvisation.. Utilizing push makes it really feel like a instrument and less staring at the screen. Then maybe an elektron octatrack or analog rytm and some simple modular setup... That way you can do improvisation to bring yourself in and out of compositions.

 

 

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[wahrk]

I've considered the Octatrack, but I'm really worried that its focus on loops might not be what I need. It does seem super rad. I just don't want to spend all that money and then not get what I want out of it.

 

 

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[lala]

you can stream whole tracks from the Flash card, 8 of them on the fly, and mix between them with the fader.

 

you could have a background track and do jazz beats over the top or whatever

[wahrk]

you can stream whole tracks from the Flash card, 8 of them on the fly, and mix between them with the fader.

 

you could have a background track and do jazz beats over the top or whatever

 

I'll have to download the manual again and read through it some more. Do you have one? Got any vids?

[lala]

ive got one, but no vids

 

I had plans to do this, play whole sets with it. havent done it yet (bought loads of things recently so some are getting more time than others) - the octatrack is coming with me as im moving flat and the studio is in boxes. im bringing my elektrons so they are going to be learnt proper.

 

maybe ask over at http://www.elektronauts.com/forums :)

[ryancolecreate]

I've never really played out, but I jam really regularly using Numerology. I just have different tracks in separate project files, so you'd have to load a new project to switch tracks. I've thought about having some tracks sequenced in Numerology and other kind of interstitial tracks or soundscapes either as flat tracks or simple hardware things to play while loading in a new track to avoid annoying silences.

[Guest Aces]

I've been trying for years to find a good way to play live. I have Ableton Live of course but everything I've tried still doesn't feel right. I'm not sure what else there is to try really... I'm currently building up a hardware studio so maybe that will supply some answers for me. Any suggestions in the mean time would be great though.

[sweepstakes]

My first thought was Octatrack too, but I've never used one in that DJ kind of a way. I want to get a 64GB CF card though so I can work full tracks or stems into my jams, or pretend I'm a DJ.

[dudenorth]

Seems like the octatrack and a laptop running either LIVE or traktor would be very nice.

[wahrk]

I've never really played out, but I jam really regularly using Numerology.

 

Man, I still really want to get my hands on Numerology for a bit. Such a cool piece of software. Still pissed that the dude is just like, "Nope, Mac only forever."

 

I've been trying for years to find a good way to play live. I have Ableton Live of course but everything I've tried still doesn't feel right. I'm not sure what else there is to try really... I'm currently building up a hardware studio so maybe that will supply some answers for me. Any suggestions in the mean time would be great though.

 

What doesn't feel right? Maybe I can help in that department. I've fidgeted with a fair amount of software setups, most of them with Live.

 

Seems like the octatrack and a laptop running either LIVE or traktor would be very nice.

 

Something having two sound sources that both focus on sample playback makes me feel cheap. I don't know why. I guess I just want my setup to be concise. Guess I should check my hangups at the door and try to open up more to these sorts of options.

[sweepstakes]

I've never really played out, but I jam really regularly using Numerology.

 

Man, I still really want to get my hands on Numerology for a bit. Such a cool piece of software. Still pissed that the dude is just like, "Nope, Mac only forever."

Ha, this used to piss me off so much. Got a pretty old Mac a year ago and Max/MSP, and I've all but forgotten about Numerology. Still curious about it but I feel at this point like it's just not something I'm ever going to get to. My buddy Golden Master loves it though.

 

Seems like the octatrack and a laptop running either LIVE or traktor would be very nice.

 

Something having two sound sources that both focus on sample playback makes me feel cheap. I don't know why. I guess I just want my setup to be concise. Guess I should check my hangups at the door and try to open up more to these sorts of options.

What else is funny is that for like a year after getting my OT I was lusting hard for a CDJ or two. You can use it as like a mega kaoss pad (looper/fx/sample-sequencing) and CDJ+OT seemed like a nice setup for mixing improvisation with prepared stuff. I think know what you mean by "cheap", though, and some fully-fledged DJ software with its own processing and stuff does feel like a bit much. Nowadays I just want to get a 64GB CF card and figure out how to "DJ" with pre-recorded songs using the OT.

[Psychotronic]

OT with Empty project, just loops and sounds on the CF

 

Additionally i had a korg ms-20 running

 

 

 

http://soundcloud.com/psychotronic/talking-to-jeons

 

 

I need to figure out a way to template a project in regards of scenes and parts(which i did not use here).

[Guest Aces]

 

 

 

 

I've been trying for years to find a good way to play live. I have Ableton Live of course but everything I've tried still doesn't feel right. I'm not sure what else there is to try really... I'm currently building up a hardware studio so maybe that will supply some answers for me. Any suggestions in the mean time would be great though.

 

What doesn't feel right? Maybe I can help in that department. I've fidgeted with a fair amount of software setups, most of them with Live.

 

 

 

 

 

It's difficult to really put my finger on. I think ultimately it just felt like I wasn't doing enough. Plus I found it difficult to break down my tracks in such a way that it gave me the flexibility needed to really pull it off. There was either so much to do it was impossible or not enough so it felt very fake. I'm pretty sure it's my own fault but I can't help but feel that Live wants to push you in a certain way.

[Psychotronic]

It's difficult to really put my finger on. I think ultimately it just felt like I wasn't doing enough. Plus I found it difficult to break down my tracks in such a way that it gave me the flexibility needed to really pull it off. There was either so much to do it was impossible or not enough so it felt very fake. I'm pretty sure it's my own fault but I can't help but feel that Live wants to push you in a certain way.

Why dont you just create new ones that fit the possibilities?

[th555]

In that vid he's got a bunch of sequencers/arp things running, and plays some massive synth solo over that. What I really like about it is how he transposes the accompanying sequences while playing synth improv. I was thinking of trying to set up something like that using Numerology (which I've never used before):

http://five12.com/n4.html

[Guest Aces]

 

It's difficult to really put my finger on. I think ultimately it just felt like I wasn't doing enough. Plus I found it difficult to break down my tracks in such a way that it gave me the flexibility needed to really pull it off. There was either so much to do it was impossible or not enough so it felt very fake. I'm pretty sure it's my own fault but I can't help but feel that Live wants to push you in a certain way.

Why dont you just create new ones that fit the possibilities?

 

 

Easy in theory, difficult in practice is the short answer to that.

[wahrk]

 

 

 

 

 

I've been trying for years to find a good way to play live. I have Ableton Live of course but everything I've tried still doesn't feel right. I'm not sure what else there is to try really... I'm currently building up a hardware studio so maybe that will supply some answers for me. Any suggestions in the mean time would be great though.

 

What doesn't feel right? Maybe I can help in that department. I've fidgeted with a fair amount of software setups, most of them with Live.

 

 

 

 

 

It's difficult to really put my finger on. I think ultimately it just felt like I wasn't doing enough. Plus I found it difficult to break down my tracks in such a way that it gave me the flexibility needed to really pull it off. There was either so much to do it was impossible or not enough so it felt very fake. I'm pretty sure it's my own fault but I can't help but feel that Live wants to push you in a certain way.

 

 

Oh man. Story of my life. Pretty sure it's always bouncing between those two until you hit a sweet-ish spot.

[Guest Aces]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've been trying for years to find a good way to play live. I have Ableton Live of course but everything I've tried still doesn't feel right. I'm not sure what else there is to try really... I'm currently building up a hardware studio so maybe that will supply some answers for me. Any suggestions in the mean time would be great though.

 

What doesn't feel right? Maybe I can help in that department. I've fidgeted with a fair amount of software setups, most of them with Live.

 

 

 

 

 

It's difficult to really put my finger on. I think ultimately it just felt like I wasn't doing enough. Plus I found it difficult to break down my tracks in such a way that it gave me the flexibility needed to really pull it off. There was either so much to do it was impossible or not enough so it felt very fake. I'm pretty sure it's my own fault but I can't help but feel that Live wants to push you in a certain way.

 

 

Oh man. Story of my life. Pretty sure it's always bouncing between those two until you hit a sweet-ish spot.

 

 

I'm going to keep trying of course. I think I'm ultimately unhappy with the way I make music in general so it all needs an overhaul.

[TubularCorporation]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've been trying for years to find a good way to play live. I have Ableton Live of course but everything I've tried still doesn't feel right. I'm not sure what else there is to try really... I'm currently building up a hardware studio so maybe that will supply some answers for me. Any suggestions in the mean time would be great though.

 

What doesn't feel right? Maybe I can help in that department. I've fidgeted with a fair amount of software setups, most of them with Live.

 

 

 

 

 

It's difficult to really put my finger on. I think ultimately it just felt like I wasn't doing enough. Plus I found it difficult to break down my tracks in such a way that it gave me the flexibility needed to really pull it off. There was either so much to do it was impossible or not enough so it felt very fake. I'm pretty sure it's my own fault but I can't help but feel that Live wants to push you in a certain way.

 

 

Oh man. Story of my life. Pretty sure it's always bouncing between those two until you hit a sweet-ish spot.

 

 

I'm going to keep trying of course. I think I'm ultimately unhappy with the way I make music in general so it all needs an overhaul.

 

 

For me, hardware helped a lot with that (I'd pretty much abandoned electronic music for quite a few years because of computer burnout and just played a lot of shows as a guitarist, but having a better than average year a little while back and being able to afford some synths and an MPC changed that completely) but the down side is that you have to move it, so I'm playing out less than ever even though I'm happier with what I do.

[Guest Aces]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've been trying for years to find a good way to play live. I have Ableton Live of course but everything I've tried still doesn't feel right. I'm not sure what else there is to try really... I'm currently building up a hardware studio so maybe that will supply some answers for me. Any suggestions in the mean time would be great though.

 

What doesn't feel right? Maybe I can help in that department. I've fidgeted with a fair amount of software setups, most of them with Live.

 

 

 

 

 

It's difficult to really put my finger on. I think ultimately it just felt like I wasn't doing enough. Plus I found it difficult to break down my tracks in such a way that it gave me the flexibility needed to really pull it off. There was either so much to do it was impossible or not enough so it felt very fake. I'm pretty sure it's my own fault but I can't help but feel that Live wants to push you in a certain way.

 

 

Oh man. Story of my life. Pretty sure it's always bouncing between those two until you hit a sweet-ish spot.

 

 

I'm going to keep trying of course. I think I'm ultimately unhappy with the way I make music in general so it all needs an overhaul.

 

 

For me, hardware helped a lot with that (I'd pretty much abandoned electronic music for quite a few years because of computer burnout and just played a lot of shows as a guitarist, but having a better than average year a little while back and being able to afford some synths and an MPC changed that completely) but the down side is that you have to move it, so I'm playing out less than ever even though I'm happier with what I do.

 

 

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with everything there. That's the sort of hardware setup I'm saving up to get.

[TubularCorporation]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've been trying for years to find a good way to play live. I have Ableton Live of course but everything I've tried still doesn't feel right. I'm not sure what else there is to try really... I'm currently building up a hardware studio so maybe that will supply some answers for me. Any suggestions in the mean time would be great though.

 

What doesn't feel right? Maybe I can help in that department. I've fidgeted with a fair amount of software setups, most of them with Live.

 

 

 

 

 

It's difficult to really put my finger on. I think ultimately it just felt like I wasn't doing enough. Plus I found it difficult to break down my tracks in such a way that it gave me the flexibility needed to really pull it off. There was either so much to do it was impossible or not enough so it felt very fake. I'm pretty sure it's my own fault but I can't help but feel that Live wants to push you in a certain way.

 

 

Oh man. Story of my life. Pretty sure it's always bouncing between those two until you hit a sweet-ish spot.

 

 

I'm going to keep trying of course. I think I'm ultimately unhappy with the way I make music in general so it all needs an overhaul.

 

 

For me, hardware helped a lot with that (I'd pretty much abandoned electronic music for quite a few years because of computer burnout and just played a lot of shows as a guitarist, but having a better than average year a little while back and being able to afford some synths and an MPC changed that completely) but the down side is that you have to move it, so I'm playing out less than ever even though I'm happier with what I do.

 

 

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with everything there. That's the sort of hardware setup I'm saving up to get.

 

 

I just finally scrounged the money up to order a Beatstep PRo today. My plan is to strip down my rig to that, the Axoloti when it finally arrives, the Anushri (and maybe the Midipal for processing the MIDI from the BSP) from Mutable and possibly one other synth and/or a couple of pedals, depending on how much I can do in the Axoloti. Everything else I own will be only for recording, if I want to incorporate it in to a live set I'll have to sample it and load the samples into the Axoloti to mess with. If all goes well, I should be able to pack everything into a suitcase or two from the thrift shop, maybe throw the old Oxygen8 in a backpack, and play anywhere that I can get to on a train, bus, plane, whatever. Keep it really minimal - I'm hoping I can get away with not even having a mixer, or at most a really basic, tiny line mixer.

 

EDIT: also, I'm hoping that will break me out of the rut I'm getting in to of everything sounding like a haphazard parody of the soundtrack from a 90s made for TV movie. Which is what I was going for when I got all the stuff, but not the only thing I want to do with it. I can't really afford to buy gear anymore, so it's time to find new ways to use what I've got.