EU

[Guest]

seeing there's a big lack of a thread on the issue of the european political powers that be, i'd like to hear your thoughts on the subject

 

my thoughts:

for a while now, the european union has been deciding on a lot of issues which a large portion of the population seemingly disagrees with. the most common argument i've heard is that the persons in power at the towers of brussels are not connected to their population and instead they seem to fare a course set out by their own group think.

 

for instance, the netherlands has voted against some issues in a democratic referendum, however the european union still continued with their initial plans. I wonder how much of a democracy that is.

 

there have been deals made with ukraine, which, either directly or indirectly, led to the shooting down of the plane above ukraine (where a lot of dutch lives were lost). there's going to be a referendum about that deal on the 6th of april. then there's the case of the migrant stream going towards europe, where a lot of people are icky about it.. now there's a deal made with turkey, which also has been done without consulting the population first. now i read in the papers that a deal between the countries in europe has been made, but the "sensitive issues are not communicated to the population yet".

 

i find this message discouraging. i get the sense that my voice is not heard, but that instead the ideological course of the european union (whatever that is.. it seems like a stew of different brands of self-serving idealisms) is being pushed forward as the highest good, taking the population of it's countries in disregard.

[BCM]

i reckon probably a case of better the devil you know...eu ain't perfect by any means but i think the good generally outweighs the bad.

[Guest]

would you care to clarify your point?

[cwmbrancity]

the weather is better

[zkom]

EU isn't perfect but the small European nations can't stand by themselves in the modern age with U.S., Russia, China and India in the global playing field. Also it has a great stabilizing effect in preventing the next big war in Europe. We had enough of that shit in the 20th century.

 

Democracy and transparency in decision making within EU could be improved. And the Brits are generally acting like dicks.

[cwmbrancity]

i take exception to that remark, only a small noisy right wing junta are proposing an EU exit. Cameron has said he wont stand for a 3rd term, so the Tory's are factioning off into pro/anti EU positions in the build up to a leadership contest. Soooo, you have Bozza on the Brexit side (<---a genuine Tory bastard of the sneakiest variety) and what'll probably be Osborne (sp?) & May in the stay-in camp.

 

If that even came close to happening, the Scots would demand independence = no more UK. If theres 1 thing i do trust the political classes with its fucking this particular aspect right up

 

yer also forgetting Charles De Gaulle's blocking shenanigans TWICE blocking our entry, after however many hundreds of thousands of British service personnel gave their lives freeing these "smaller" nations you speak of in 2 almighty conflicts. No small sacrifice.

 

the real issues are the political incompetence & complacency across ALL EU governments while the humanitarian crisis unfolds unabated.

 

their only answer is to start shutting doors/putting up wired fencing, which will lead to further instability in Turkey, a country already on the frontline between Syria/Iraq & Russki meddling

 

but hey its all down to the fkn Brits innit.....

[zkom]

I'm also talking about UK not joining the Schengen area and the eurozone, not just the Brexit. But lately the British demands on special treatment over everybody else while eroding the basic principles of EU have really started to piss me off.

[KovalainenFanBoy]

Gibraltar español

[tec]

Putting this to a referendum is ridiculous because people don't understand it and will vote on how they feel about Polish builders rather than the actual subject.

[caze]

Gibraltar español

 

nah, the Gibraltarians want nothing to do with you.

[cwmbrancity]

let them have their precioussss rock back & maybe the French will invade the Channel Islands too

 

 

I'm also talking about UK not joining the Schengen area and the eurozone, not just the Brexit. But lately the British demands on special treatment over everybody else while eroding the basic principles of EU have really started to piss me off.

 

 

Are u pissed at Norway too? Or the sketchy Swiss <----jesus these cunts with their neutrality, Dignitas shenanigans and banking hide n sneaks?

 

Its all emotive political smokescreens yer being fed.

 

Ask anyone across Europe of reasonable intelligence and NO-ONE knows whats best all round and if they say they do they're fuckin lying (ie: UKIP)

[KovalainenFanBoy]

 

Gibraltar español

 

nah, the Gibraltarians want nothing to do with you.

 

and rightfully so, but still

 

Gibraltar español

[Tricone RC]

 

 

Gibraltar español

 

nah, the Gibraltarians want nothing to do with you.

 

and rightfully so, but still

 

Gibraltar español

 

Gibraltar pertany a Catalunya!

[Amen Warrior]

let them have their precioussss rock back & maybe the French will invade the Channel Islands too

 

 

I'm also talking about UK not joining the Schengen area and the eurozone, not just the Brexit. But lately the British demands on special treatment over everybody else while eroding the basic principles of EU have really started to piss me off.

 

Are u pissed at Norway too? Or the sketchy Swiss <----jesus these cunts with their neutrality, Dignitas shenanigans and banking hide n sneaks?

 

Its all emotive political smokescreens yer being fed.

 

Ask anyone across Europe of reasonable intelligence and NO-ONE knows whats best all round and if they say they do they're fuckin lying (ie: UKIP)

I agree, big big red flag when you have charlatans like IDS and farage answering all questions about post brexit with another question in a more incredulous tone. ("look, do you REALLY think Germany is going to stop selling us BMWs?")

[Dragon]

donald trump for UK prime minister 2016

[Leon Sumbitches]

Putting this to a referendum is ridiculous because people don't understand it and will vote on how they feel about Polish builders rather than the actual subject.

 

This. Nobody really knows enough about it to be even remotely well-informed, myself included. My vague feeling is that it's better to stay than to go.

 

But aye, fuck the UK's prissy nonsense these days.

[Guest]

tec
>people don't understand it

Do you understand it? My big problem is that nobody, safe for our intellectually gifted politicians, really knows what's in there

 

Leon

>My vague feeling

ex-actly. The vague feeling is what guides most, but honestly you have no clue what it's about

[johnnix]

I think it is in fact very simple, and it boils downs to a few basic points:

-Is the current european organisation (EU comission + EU council + EU parliament) able to deal with crisis sutuation?

-Do every nation-state currently being in the EU willing to abide by the same set of rules?

-Do the UK (Cue "yer also forgetting Charles De Gaulle's blocking shenanigans TWICE blocking our entry, after however many hundreds of thousands of British service personnel gave their lives freeing these "smaller" nations you speak of in 2 almighty conflicts. No small sacrifice.")
which is really none sense because at time of the end of WW2 the Brits and the US wanted to put France in a'protectorat', that is why Charle Degaule never wanted the UK in Europe because he felt (in my mind rightfilly so) that the UK was more US centric than the rest of Europe.. And here we go again, the UK wants the benefits of being part of the common market but none of the liabilities...

which leads me to the 3rd point:

-Do the people of europe (the whole 27 countries) want a kind of federal union?
(unfortunately I know the answer, and it's not the east european countries that do not want, it's mainly between Germany and France)

.... Where is the european army?
....Where is some kind of euro-bond to safeguard the whole financial system?
....Where is the common energy politic?
....Where is the common immigration politic?
....Where is even the (basic) cooperation of the police forces?

I desper

[Guest]

i'll respond to your points in detail later johnoise, i have to be on my way soon..

 

to my brit watmm friends: im not for more EU expansion at the moment. although i agree with the sentiment that we are all human beings on one world, the reality we've created is a complex one with lots of intricancies (nationalism, economy, environment, just to name a few). before the expansion goes any further, it's better to try and get our shit straight.

 

it's like these people never played civilization 5: when you expand, your empire needs to stabilize. when you capture a town, you have at least 7 turns of shit, after which rebuilding can begin. best bet after is the courthouse naturally.

[zkom]

let them have their precioussss rock back & maybe the French will invade the Channel Islands too

 

 

I'm also talking about UK not joining the Schengen area and the eurozone, not just the Brexit. But lately the British demands on special treatment over everybody else while eroding the basic principles of EU have really started to piss me off.

 

 

Are u pissed at Norway too? Or the sketchy Swiss <----jesus these cunts with their neutrality, Dignitas shenanigans and banking hide n sneaks?

 

Its all emotive political smokescreens yer being fed.

 

Ask anyone across Europe of reasonable intelligence and NO-ONE knows whats best all round and if they say they do they're fuckin lying (ie: UKIP)

 

Norway and Switzerland are not part of the EU, so I don't know what's your point? And both are part of the Schengen area which allows for free movement of people which is one of the basic principles of EU that UK (an EU country) doesn't seem to care about.

 

My main point was perhaps that to me nationalism is outdated tribalism that we should get over with already.

 

If EU fails I hope there's going to be some sort of Nordic or Northern European union.

[chim]

I don't agree with the EU. They're centralized, bureaucratic (read: non-democratic), parliament seats are disproportionate, being in the whole club is insanely costly and they apply arbitrary blanket restrictions on issues like fresh water pH levels that concern vastly different countries and environments, plus that certain regulations, regarding labor for instance, threaten the integrity of any given country's labor laws and union agreements (that have been hard-won over a longer time than the EU has been in existence). I am not sure if it's a good idea to secede in these uncertain times regarding Putin, ISIS, etc.

[Leon Sumbitches]

If we leave who gets custody of the chillphins?

[Soloman Tump]

Polish builders tho

[cwmbrancity]

I think it is in fact very simple, and it boils downs to a few basic points:

 

-Is the current european organisation (EU comission + EU council + EU parliament) able to deal with crisis sutuation?

 

-Do every nation-state currently being in the EU willing to abide by the same set of rules?

 

-Do the UK (Cue "yer also forgetting Charles De Gaulle's blocking shenanigans TWICE blocking our entry, after however many hundreds of thousands of British service personnel gave their lives freeing these "smaller" nations you speak of in 2 almighty conflicts. No small sacrifice.")

which is really none sense because at time of the end of WW2 the Brits and the US wanted to put France in a'protectorat', that is why Charle Degaule never wanted the UK in Europe because he felt (in my mind rightfilly so) that the UK was more US centric than the rest of Europe.. And here we go again, the UK wants the benefits of being part of the common market but none of the liabilities...

 

 

 

bit of a sweeping generalization of wiki-history there chap

 

if u think De Gaulle's posturing "helped", it didnt. De Gaulle couldnt cope with German occupation & sought to exert blame wherever & whenever possible. He never forgave Britain for scuppering French warships which made absolute sense rather than let them fall into Nazi hands.

 

DG was essentially exactly the type of bureaucrat that shames the whole notion of an EU, its function & ability to fulfill the desires of its citizens.

 

The man was an ungrateful pugnacious cunt too.

 

 

 

let them have their precioussss rock back & maybe the French will invade the Channel Islands too

 

 

I'm also talking about UK not joining the Schengen area and the eurozone, not just the Brexit. But lately the British demands on special treatment over everybody else while eroding the basic principles of EU have really started to piss me off.

 

 

Are u pissed at Norway too? Or the sketchy Swiss <----jesus these cunts with their neutrality, Dignitas shenanigans and banking hide n sneaks?

 

Its all emotive political smokescreens yer being fed.

 

Ask anyone across Europe of reasonable intelligence and NO-ONE knows whats best all round and if they say they do they're fuckin lying (ie: UKIP)

 

Norway and Switzerland are not part of the EU, so I don't know what's your point? And both are part of the Schengen area which allows for free movement of people which is one of the basic principles of EU that UK (an EU country) doesn't seem to care about.

 

My main point was perhaps that to me nationalism is outdated tribalism that we should get over with already.

 

If EU fails I hope there's going to be some sort of Nordic or Northern European union.

 

 

 

thats my exact point, you complain about the UK but when comparisons are made to other nations who straddle various technicalities you have no problem with their stance

 

why is Britain at fault?

 

you mistake a small noisy minority for what is mostly a pro-EU nation, which just shows the ignorance & hypocrisy of your own position for someone grinding on about aspects like supposed tribalism

[cwmbrancity]

if you cant grasp the nuances of history, how the fuck are you gonna address the larger questions about institutional ineptitude/complacency, humanitarian crisis points and the bottle neck of refugees piling up in Turkey, Greece, the Balkans & Hungary?

 

pointless thread when it comes to general muck slinging and "Britain should get a grip" etc

 

understand the power vacuum @ the heart in the Tory party with no Cameron 3rd term, understand the complexity of the Scottish independence debate if an EU exit came into focus and grasp Labour's complete failure to form a viable opposition and i might listen to what some of you have to say about Britain's role in Europe.

 

cos from prior evidence a lot of it is total bollix