may be rude

the study has a methodology to identify what amount of deaths trump specifically is responsible for. but hey, let's give him a pass for the 10s of thousands dead that the study found him responsible for, because he subverted mask guidance. let's say he didn't do it to spread covid, he did it because of his bronzer and because he's an idiot. why'd he slow down testing? testing is visibility into where covid is spreading. it helps stop spreading. it's obvious we needed testing. https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-donald-trump-ap-top-news-joe-biden-tulsa-476068bd60e9048303b736e9d7fc6572 (june 2020) there's no reason that makes sense. unless he wanted covid to spread. slowing testing doesn't help the numbers, the numbers would still get worse. that rationale he stated does not add up. and he was able to understand that.

it's interesting that people are so resistant to accepting it. it is right in front of everyone's eyes. just read this sentence: please reread from page 305. it's really fucked up. i can't give him a pass. he did it. he knew what he was doing. he was spreading covid and he was setting the stage to contest the election. and he wanted to stoke unrest and use the military under martial law, also in spring 2020, with george floyd protests. it sounds crazy but the dude somehow found the precise path to trying his damnedest to do a coup. the pattern seems weird at first but after a point it's just too predictable. every single time he steered toward a coup. even going so far as to spread covid. his behavior during covid was alarmingly bizarre to everyone with half a brain and it stayed that way for a prolonged period of time. it was way worse than it needed to be and it was because of him. one study measured how many people died from just one piece of public health advice that he subverted, mask wearing, and it was in the tens of thousands. that's just one thing and it cost 10s of thousands of lives. why'd he do that? because of orange make up? nothing to do with being a sociopath bent on a coup? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7525014/ did you know he handed off no vaccine distribution plan to biden? it was quite strange, there was literally no plan in place, in january 2021, to distribute the vaccine. imagine trump retained power through an emergency scenario because the capitol had to be evacuated and the certification was indefinitely delayed somehow. might come in handy to have unrest as a pretext for emergency control. just like he was eager to play with during george floyd protests, seeking to use the insurrection act in spring of 2020. https://www.reuters.com/article/world/trump-administration-had-no-coronavirus-vaccine-distribution-plan-white-house-idUSKBN29T0FB/

i know. it's like he preferred to contest the election than to win. he would have won if he handled covid well and all he had to do was listen to the experts. i don't find it preposterous. with or without putin. the putin part definitely helps the theory. and there's no reason to imagine the putin part isn't there. he's been doing business with the russian mob for decades. this is true and it's the best counterargument. still the thousand plus data points i've seen showed me a person steering toward the coup as early as spring 2020. fearing prosecution for high crimes such as abuse of power, alone, is enough to give him the fear. don't face palm me guys. i'm right. i invite people to reread from page 305. there are a lot of pieces of the argument i haven't included but i laid out enough to help people see that i'm right. people can do their own research. trump's a demon. the fucker spread covid deliberately because he planned to try a coup. anyone making excuses for him in the face of this stuff i think probably feels a bit sick in their stomach because the theory is right.

lob lobbing

How “Fight Club” Created a Generation of Sh*tposters the episode is from Crooked Media's podcast series called Offline, which explores the impact of the modern info space on society, journalism, politics, psychology, culture, activism, etc cool episode that captures some profound stuff at the crossroads of culture, sociology, psychology, philosophy, and evolution

this is the best counterargument and i appreciate you guys giving me your takes. this may never be proven conclusively, in public, or maybe it will come out decades after the fact. intelligence stuff is kept under wraps for multiple reasons. regarding the putin stuff. maybe a class action lawsuit will happen to, suing trump for deliberately spreading covid. maybe not. there may be an immunity protection. maybe congress would look into it and establish that he spread covid to set the stage for his coup, but i don't think they would because of the toxic info atmosphere. not sure how statute of limitations stuff plays out. now his defense could argue immunity for a criminal case. yes, the information situation is a mess, and it is very significant to global politics. we are tasked with sorting out the mess, no humans have been here before. it's interesting how we must tend to each-other, as people's realities diverge. the solution is sociological. i'm not out here pushing for him to face the music in a criminal or civil case. i'm spreading info on this because the election is coming up and this is important and the time is right to talk about it. in political persuasion, it's important to be honest. say what you really think is important. say why you think the thing is true.

yeah those were the 3 things i was providing sources for, but i phrase them: trump spread covid trump spent a lot of time messaging about how mail-in ballots would invite fraud, though it was always easily debunked trump tried a coup i organized the list of sources into 3 sections, and labeled each section. those are 3 components of one argument, that argues trump spread covid to set the stage for his coup. those 3 facts are widely established in the public record, and are right in front of everyone's eyes. i'm trying to help people realize that the theory looks true, because it's hard for people to believe, so i pointed out one very accessible argument. the argument goes: if trump's actions strangely resulted in spreading covid significantly more than necessary, and he strangely spent a lot of time during campaign season spreading misinformation about mail-ins being fraud, and he then committed a coup, using false fraud narratives, then it is likely that he deliberately spread covid intentionally for the purpose of setting the stage for his coup. this is a logical argument with 3 premises and a conclusion, and the 3 premises are well supported in the public record. it's an inductive argument, not deductive, which means that the conclusion is not certain. the premises make the conclusion likely to be true. this is just one argument. i've highlighted this one because it's easy to establish and it's based on information people are already somewhat familiar with. there are other arguments. since you like sources so much, here's an article that lays out another argument, for why trump was deliberately spreading covid. https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/trump-s-covid-lies-were-tragedy-were-they-also-crime-n1255849 chris hayes was covering the story of how trump was "objectively pro-covid," as he often put it, during 2020. here's a piece from december 2020 about that, which makes another argument. https://www.msnbc.com/all-in/watch/-we-want-them-infected-chris-hayes-on-emails-revealing-truth-of-trump-covid-plan-97881669925 those 2 just argue that trump was interested in spreading covid. they don't state the motive that it was for his coup. but once you establish he wanted to spread covid, it's kind of obvious that it must have been for that reason. do you feel like you're dunking on me or something? because you're posting on watmm demanding that i prepare for you a history-changing, undeniably conclusive proof that would cost 2 million dollars for a legal team to put together. i've done a lot of work preparing information here and you've been moving goal posts and being snide. i maybe shouldn't even be dignifying or encouraging you at this point. but you seem to be trying to engage with the arguments logically to an extent, which is nice, despite demonstrating poor reading comprehension and being a cunt on a high horse for some reason (offended i would call out the authoritarian we're dealing with over here? wtf?). do you think i like laying this out here? i'm describing what i observed. i was in a unique position to observe it. i'm not the only one who observed it. i don't like having to post this. it's not ludicrous. to me, it's ludicrous to think the theory is not correct. it's ridiculous to believe he was not deliberately setting the stage to contest the election, having seen what i've seen. people have this weird troll tick where they say "you do not have any evidence" when actually there is a lot of evidence. like do you know what the word means? a piece of evidence is one fact. it's distinct from a conclusive proof. i may end up forming a conclusive proof for you cunts, i'm not saying i don't have one in me. yeah and also hey we know he was setting the stage to contest an election. he was doing that, we see it in the preemptive mail-in narrative. why make excuses for him? it is preposterous to imagine trump, in 2020, while spreading covid, and setting the stage to contest the election based on mail-ins, in his mind wasn't aware that his actions to spread covid served his purpose to set the stage to contest the election. people don't want to accept this theory i'm describing because it's so fucked up but i owe it to people to let them know that this is what it looked like (and still looks like). i am at a point where i cannot take seriously the position that the theory is false. i like when posters try to disprove the theory because i've been living with this for years and it's nice to hear the counterarguments. but it just looks like the theory is correct. yes. one of the disturbing things is how many of trump's moves looked like putin moves.

alco i shared a bunch of sources but they weren't unique enough for you? you want more sources, there are a lot. what do you want? trump spread covid from june 30, 2020: COVID-19 Is Surging. Donald Trump’s Response Is Shrinking Trump White House made 'deliberate efforts' to undermine Covid response, report says btw that article links to a report from the House of Reps Select Subcommittee on the Corona Virus, and the link is broken in the article, but i found a working link: https://coronavirus-democrats-oversight.house.gov/sites/evo-subsites/coronavirus-democrats-oversight.house.gov/files/SSCCInterimReportDec2021V1.pdf NIH study finds: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9115435/ here's something relevant, references a lancet study: US could have averted 40% of Covid deaths, says panel examining Trump's policies that's separate other studies that arrived at similar conclusions. like, here's an article about some separate research from brookings U.S. COVID response could have avoided hundreds of thousands of deaths: research trump spent a lot of time messaging about how mail-in ballots would invite fraud, though it was always easily debunked npr, june 22, 2020: FACT CHECK: Trump Spreads Unfounded Claims About Voting By Mail npr, august 28, 2020: Trump Keeps Pushing Debunked Mail-In Voting Claims nyt, sept 28, 2020: Trump Is Pushing a False Argument on Vote-by-Mail Fraud. Here Are the Facts. trump tried a coup THE UNITED STATES V. DONALD J. TRUMP, defendant - federal indictment of trump for coup because of the immunity ruling, one area of evidence was removed, the part dealing with abuse of doj, as part of the coup. it's important to understand that the coup was a hub-and-spoke conspiracy with around a half dozen components: spreading the lie false slates of electors (giuliani was orchestrating) pressuring state officials (the raffensperger call - threatening him with federal legal action) misusing DOJ to mislead state officials (the jeffrey clark letter they tried to fire the Acting Attorney General so they could send to states) pressuring pence to reject electors for some states (sending the election to the house of reps for a vote by state delegations by which the republicans had the majority) january 6th anyway, this is the revised indictment and it still includes the same charges and counts, despite removing the doj set of evidence. there are multiple counts per crime, but there are 4 crimes he's charged with, in that indictment: conspiracy to defraud the united states - this is him being charged with lying to the public conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding obstruction of official proceeding conspiracy against rights - this is him being charged for interfering with our right to elect the president here's the jeff clark letter here's the raffensperger call House January 6th Committee investigation hearings - PBS youtube playlist of all, full hearings he was indicted for his coup in a separate indictment in the state of georgia. here's that indictment. recently it was revealed that the arizona grand jury wanted to indict trump for his involvement in the elector scheme in the state of arizona. they only didn't because of a norm to defer to the feds when investigating the same thing: Arizona prosecutors asked grand jurors not to indict Trump in state’s fake electors case

it's right there for anyone to see. it's important that i describe it so others can look into it and think about this. it's very concerning. it's crazy concerning, absolutely nightmarish to think about the scenario of trump being compromised by putin and spreading covid to set the stage for a coup. it's alarming that so, so many data points present this consistent picture. i laid out a decently compelling case, i think. i appreciate people bearing with me, and helping me to put it down, here. page 305 is a good starting point

i read the sentence a few times and i don't really understand it tbh. are you saying "information noise" [not entirely sure what this is] us the only thing preventing people from recognizing that trump conspired with putin to spread covid as one of the steps in his coup strategy? as i've said, it's difficult to prove with certainty an explicit agreement between trump and putin for him to try a coup. my sentence about information noise (you know what it is - bannon's flooding the zone with shit, which has drowned out reality in the modern info space) did not refer to the putin part. that sentence was about just one component of what i've been talking about since page 305, and that component is bad enough, which is the following. the following public facts (aka pieces of evidence) paint a damning picture of trump, and, if people weren't mostly tentacle fucked by garbage info, this is something people would be talking about: trump spread covid trump spent tons of campaign bandwidth messaging that covid ballots are going to make the election be fraud trump tried a coup that's bad all by itself, without putin. i just can't help but notice that the putin stuff all lines up and actually helps explain the covid/coup stuff. as a matter of fact, i was anticipating it, wondering how he would set the stage for a coup, at the beginning of 2020. it was a real, strange, nagging question in my mind. part of the reason why i anticipated it is that i followed the russia stuff closely. people itt resting their arguments on assuming trump's intentions. i think eventually people will realize i'm trying to convey, without spending 100 hours building a report for you folks, my reasoning. as someone who had cultivated a good info amalgamator and was unfortunately watching things way too closely, i saw some shit. the experience of observing the consistent pattern of trump always steering toward the iceberg is usefully described as weird. to explain my point about morality, i think a lot of people assume trump wouldn't have these intents in his head as he was doing the damned actions, and i think that's because people don't realize how dark of a character trump is. did you know he knew he had covid during the debate with biden in 2020? he tested positive days earlier, his chief of staff mark meadows wrote that in his book. that's the kind of dude we're talking about, he could have killed biden, and he did it deliberately.

lol but i'm not persuaded an important part of the theory i'm describing is the preemptive aspect of trump contesting the election. he was clearly spending valuable attention, to subvert the integrity of the election, before it happened. in the moment, in 2020, september, october (it was just about every day in october), he was campaigning against the legitimacy of the election, before it happened. i'm sorry but you can't chalk it up to stupidity. as stupid as that fucker is. he was setting the stage to contest the election, earnestly, investing time and energy into it, for months before the election. a big part of that was his "mail ins are fraudulent" narrative.

it's only because of information noise that people don't recognize the glaring impropriety of a president spreading plague while campaigning on why the election will be fraud because of the plague-related mail-in ballots, and then trying a coup using that lie among others. like just read that sentence. it's fucking weird and you have to give him the benefit of the doubt to let him get away with it, like assume he's a moral person and wouldn't do that. that he's not a sociopath compromised by putin, being steered to participate in a major covert military intelligence attack on the US. i'll reiterate that i've qualified my language to indicate that i haven't reached the conclusion with certainty that he explicitly conspired with putin for this purpose. but it sure is funny that it looks like he did. anyway regardless of putin, that fucker was deliberately trolling covid, spreading bullshit, undermining professional experts, and inserting himself to sabotage and stop the experts from doing what they prepared for years to do. the effect was spreading plague while he was also campaigning about mail-ins and then he tried a coup. i'm sorry but i don't see how you let him get away with that. people should acknowledge that's what he did. i cannot believe that in his mind he wasn't fully aware of the connection. i was watching and what i saw was a really fucked up dude who appeared to be deliberately spreading covid and preemptively setting the stage to contest the election. hard to believe right? why would he do that? kind of crazy and weird. he would have to be a sociopath compromised by putin or something for that to make sense. or maybe just a bent narcissist fearing federal prison and ruin. but i don't get why you would ignore the established putin connection. you have to really strain to believe that. i don't. it doesn't make sense. yes, he's an idiot, but think about how so many people were urgently advising him to the contrary. it strains credulity that he could reach the conclusion in good faith. the picture i see is that he always steered toward the iceberg. that's the thing, the consistency of the pattern. there's the covid theory and there's the putin theory and for both it's weird how consistently the data points indicate them. and it's weird how they both are consistent with each-other

it's preposterous and it seems like he stated a reasoning as a legal defense protection. i noticed it seemed like that at multiple points

except for the part about the population being lessened. i didn't say anything about the population being lessened (wtf with you imagining that?). but yeah if you're going to try a coup, yeah, spread a plague to bump the chaos level a good bit he tried his coup and it came pretty close. pence stood up against him in a rather remarkable way. he tried to ride to the capital himself but his secret service stopped him. pence luckily escaped an engagement between his detail and the crowd, which could have escalated to gunshots. raffensperger happened to stand up to trump. some staffers happened to grab the electoral votes from the chamber before evacuating. there are a million ways things could have gone worse, and we came strangely close to the certification of the election getting indefinitely delayed under emergency control powers by the president 2 weeks before inauguration day. his using the mail-in narrative was part of that. the shit fucking happened and it came way too close to working, man. glad we agree that it would matter if that were the case. it is. you can see it with your eyes. no one wants it to believe it but he's a sociopath and he's compromised by putin. wtf are you talking about man. i never said anything close to that. seriously wtf is wrong with you anyway, some other contextual info, i was way too plugged in in 2020 and i remember shit like how he had cdc do less testing in jun 2020. that's the "spread covid" switch. testing is one of, if not the most important tools in dealing with a pandemic. precisely at the time when there was a shortage of testing and an extreme need for it, and when the federal government was uniquely poised to be able to solve that problem, trump inserts himself to cause the institutions to test less. that's just one example, but there was the same disturbingly consistent pattern. why did he keep flipping those spread-covid switches? hey, i'll play devils advocate. maybe there was another purpose to not testing. but it's preposterous. it's fucking preposterous. i cannot take it seriously. so, once you establish that he was flipping the "spread covid" switch, the next question naturally is why? with the benefit of hindsight, now, it's not a mysterious question. we know he committed a coup attempt months later. i'm sorry but i was watching and he knew what he was doing when he was spreading covid. he knew he was fucking spreading covid. and he was grinning about hydroxychloroquine and bleach next to dr deborah birx who is beside herself as she experiences this sociopath trolling a real deadly pandemic how do you make an excuse for him like his brain somehow is broken in exactly the perfect way that he's innocent or something? it's ridiculous. people are in denial.

cool strawman bro

yes. i actually explained it, you're not seeming lucid today. here you go, i'll quote my post from the top of page 305. ok i see where i can clarify maybe. my post at the top of page 305 kind of followed this post from page 304: wait. wait. wait. he's doubling down on this after the debate? you know back in the biden debate i thought it was odd that a couple times trump decided to start talking about how he didn't call the troops suckers and losers, like out of nowhere, and he said things like he didn't have sex with a porn star. like why are you deciding to talk about that. almost like he was trying to trim points or lose. in other ways, in the biden debate, i suspected him of trimming points, like he saw biden freeze and didn't react. the one time he took a shot at biden's awful performance was pretty mild. kind of like how he fumbled 2020 with covid, and how he seemed to be trying to lose in 2016, when he was coming out with tons of bizarrely offensive gaffes, innovating new ways to come out with offensive gaffes with impressive frequency. in 2016 i think he was trying to lose because he was compromised. in 2020 i wonder if he was trying to trim points because putin wanted him to topple the government and he wanted to do it. all he had to do was do what everyone was telling him to do, in 2020, and he would have handled covid well and he would have very likely won. he denied testing, tracing, and supplies, and he subverted expert public advisory guidance. he was deliberately sewing the seeds of unrest, creating the conditions for his coup attempt, as early as spring 2020. his reactions to the george floyd protests showed him eager to use any chance to exercise emergency powers. he wanted to invoke the insurrection act, bill barr and esper had to stand up to him and say no. lafayette square was tear gased, helicopter buzzed, there were rubber bullets and doj troopers with no insignia, it turns out commanded by bill barr and taken from the prison system, and trump was messaging that cops should exercise brutality, literally, repeatedly, like he was trying to escalate the frontlines of civil unrest during those protests. he devoured the bait pellets kamala fed him to trigger him. now he's doubling down on cats and dogs. does he want to lose? is he trimming points? does bannon's ai indicate that the dog narrative will win him the voters he needs? is trump just lamer since he disgraced himself with a coup? in that post i discuss how trump would have won 2020 if he had handled covid well. i use qualifying language because i'm careful about reaching conclusions but that's where i started the topic of how i notice the theory of the covid response being an anticipation of a coup may appear consistent with the idea that trump is compromised by putin. it would explain his behaviors that steered toward nearly breaking american democracy. i also clarified the level of confidence in this part of a post to ignatius on page 305 thanks for letting me clarify. it does all tie together, if you assume the conclusion that trump coordinated with putin for the purpose of toppling the us government (difficult to prove but concerningly it is possible to make a strong argument). i was refering to this from my post on the previous page:

reminder i edit my posts a bit after posting the heat helps the edits

i actually don't think it's a big leap at all. i think we are being willfully blind to ignore what is right before our eyes. specifically, it's quite clear he attempted a coup. and, it's just the factual record that he quite astonishingly blocked the fervent advice of expert consensus regarding how to handle a pandemic. and, it's just the factual record that he spent a ton of time before the election campaigning about how the election would be fraudulent because of mail-in ballots. why would you not connect those dots? especially with the other context i posted on page 305, such as how he demonstrated actions of seeking to cause a pretext for martial law, which pandemic may also serve the purpose of. maybe that's some more contextual info that helps to recognize the pattern for @auxien , being familiar with how trump was actively, clearly trying to escalate protests while simultaneously trying to use them as a reason to initiate martial law, in may of 2020 i happened to have been anticipating him setting the stage for a coup somehow, so i was uniquely positioned to watch it in his eyes and his movements in real time every day as he subverted expert advice. he was spreading covid while campaigning on mail-ins being fraud. think about that. read my post.

i put together a post back on page 7-4-24 in this thread: that covers some important points, and those pieces of info come from solid sources i added a couple more on 7-25: but i guess you were kind of sloppily and rudely requesting citations for info i had seen that helped me be able to recognize trump's deliberate intent in his actions, in real time, in 2020, if i trace back the conversation. some good documents that informed an anticipation of trump attempting a coup (also good documents on trump/russia): mccabe's book "the threat" the senate select committee on intelligence's report on their investigation into trump's connections with russia, parts 1-5. the parts on manafort in part 5 are particularly worth reviewing the mueller report there's a lot, man, it's going to be hard to pull together a comprehensive set of info i had seen which tipped me off to the potential reality that this dude could be up to some shit that was much darker than people would think. but there are some citations of just stuff i had seen before 2020 other good sources relevant to trump's connections to russia or his intentional coup, that came out since then: strzok's book "compromised" mccabe's book "where law ends" the house committee on january 6th's public hearings so, there you go i guess you wanted examples of stuff i was familiar with to a greater extent than many other people. i hope that helps. i'm not sure why you're coming at me on this sunday afternoon. do you think i'm posting this shit for fun and careless with regard to whether i truely believe it's accurate?

cited where? dude you were responding to me seeing "we've seen different information" was i supposed to have a citation for that comment? do you want a citation of all information i've seen? there's a lot i've consumed. and 99.9% of people haven't seen that stuff.

please share this secret information. i was referring to public information. Expand conspiratorial nonsense. i'm not saying Trump's better than stooping to doing that, i'm just saying that's not what happened. must be cool to astral project to the helsinki meeting and confirm yeah, i know. but there has been an intelligence war going on under the radar for decades. they do shit like this, developing agents, maneuvering them into positions of power. people associate it with espionage films. also it's something that occurs in reality. but it's not so strange, a lot of trump's behaviors are straight out of the authoritarian playbook. like, go big, with a big lie. that's a technique hitler described. the bigger you go, the more you drown out the previous things, and the more it sounds like a crazy story to call out the lie. make a clean break in the realities of the populace, they have to choose, so they go with the simpler reality. and trump does that. i do use qualifiers and i agree we should be careful in how we speak about it. but i think it's possible and appropriate to speak about it. we don't owe it to trump to ignore what it looks like. at this point it's important that people know what it looks like. look at him in the debate the other day, he couldn't even say he wants ukraine to win. it's everywhere you look. he attempted a coup, and he weirdly sucks putin's balls, and we're not supposed to wonder if that's connected?

penetrating the modern information networks is an unsolved problem, but history commonly has a fuller and more accurate view. thanks for letting me clarify. it does all tie together, if you assume the conclusion that trump coordinated with putin for the purpose of toppling the us government (difficult to prove but concerningly it is possible to make a strong argument). i was refering to this from my post on the previous page:

i'm sorry but i don't think it's that. i know it's hard to believe. that's why people don't want to voice this publicly. i hope eventually public attention moves to this. hopefully if it's established in court that he tried a coup, that will make it easier for public discussion to happen about whether his actions regarding covid related. i'm sorry but to me it's a pretty starkly clear picture. if he's convicted of espionage act crimes, maybe that will make it easier for discussion to happen about whether espionage related. you know trump was using those documents for deeply fucked up purposes. we haven't all seen the same information. there's kind of a small set of people who were watching things very closely and who also had the contextual information to be able to observe trump deliberately spreading covid. you could watch it on tv, his covid conferences. i really hope eventually history addresses this part of the whole trump episode. it's very relevant to note that the doj determined, and grand juries agreed, that they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt, including motive and intent, in 2 different indictments, that trump attempted a coup and committed espionage act crimes.

this is your reminder that, in 2020, all 10 living former secretaries of defense signed a public letter saying that the military must not be used by the president in his efforts to contest the election https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/03/politics/trump-election-defense-secretaries-public-letter/index.html think about that