Invite to Participate in Graduate Research: "IDM as Popular Music"

[toaoaoad]

Also just to clarify I wasn't being flippant in my suggestion to read the AAA thread. I would consider it a significant document. Sean and Rob modestly share a ton of valuable information about their own work and their opinions about music and the scene etc from the perspective of two very important figures in it. And in terms of the "IDM community" well, you get to see a ton of WATMMers jizz all over themselves and ask S&R to name various pieces of equipment, and of course ask some pertinent questions as well. It's a lot to read in thread form but I think someone around here condensed it into a spreadsheet or something like it.

Edited January 21, 2021 by toaoaoad

[headplastic]

@toaoaoad Hahahah that's great. Yeah I didn't take it that way, I see it as a great document as well and thanks for the suggestion. Combing through this forum is key to providing a description of the community and how artists are represented. WATMM has been active for so long and does not follow the same community structure as many music fandoms do. YouTube, Instagram, reddit, and other social media platforms are mostly used these days, so I see it as unique

[dingformung]

1 hour ago, headplastic said:

@zkom mentioned braindance, is that term not synonymous with IDM as a genre? What about 'experimental techno'?

"Experimental techno" doesn't work as braindance isn't necessarily experimental or techno-like.

[dingformung]

1 hour ago, headplastic said:

electronica

betta

[dingformung]

- Would you consider the IDM community a diverse social space? Is it a cohesive community or fragmented in some way?

Yes and no. It's mostly white males predominantly living within the Anglosphere but from all sorts of age groups and walks of life, it seems.

 

- What constitutes "popular music" in this digital age? Is IDM popular music?

No.

 

- Does the online underground exist? What kind of impact does it have on listeners?

Please define underground. What exactly differentiates underground from non-underground?

[Zephyr_Nova]

Alternative Electronic.

Much as "alternative" became a catchall for bands that weren't tailoring their sound to any specific genre, that's more or less what IDM is but in the electronic realm.  If you make a track and then need to figure out what genre it is afterwards, it's IDM.

[usagi]

3 hours ago, Alcofribas said:

this was called "dance music" which had never been done before and it was copied largely from music being made in midwestern inner cities in the united states. they too were undergoing "economics" by the geniuses of the land so they had to make tunes to make life tolerable.

lmao strewth m8

[ambermonk]

15 hours ago, headplastic said:

 

- Would you consider the IDM community a diverse social space? Is it a cohesive community or fragmented in some way?

- What constitutes "popular music" in this digital age? Is IDM popular music?

- Does the online underground exist? What kind of impact does it have on listeners?

 

a1 - Mixed bag, in terms of cohesion and fragmentation. If we're talking demographics, it seems to be majority white male Westerners, mainly Gen X and Millennials. Mostly politically left-leaning urbanites though.

a2 - Popular music these days likely depends on trending internet memes. IDM itself never really seemed to gain popularity since I was introduced to it in the late 90s. It always seemed to cater to a niche audience. But it may have had some indirect influences on more well-known artists in recent years. Die Antwoord's "Ugly Boy" for example is a cover of Aphex Twin's "Ageispolis".

a3 - I'm sure it does if you know where to look. (SoundCloud, Bandcamp, etc) Probably causes listeners to vibe, purchase, and seek out similar artists, idk. Maybe even inspire them to make their own music.

[J3FF3R00]

@headplastic

 

- Would you consider the IDM community a diverse social space? Is it a cohesive community or fragmented in some way?

I think It's fairly homogenous. If I'm giving my own impression as a long-time member of this community, the main demographic is mostly college-educated, straight, white males. The diversity in the crowd seems to be more in the age range. 

As far as fragmentation goes: Some of us old-timers were consuming music differently way back when IDM started being a known sub-genre. I think a lot of people first got into it through rave culture (a lot of us here are old-school ravers) or more of an "underground" extreme music appreciation network like zines, record stores or completists collecting 12" remixes, etc.  Since then, the younger peeps have more likely been exposed to the music through the internet. Some other fragments probably run between crowds of trained musicians, gear heads, drug addicts, curious youngsters, and NIN fans. I feel like I rarely see strong divisions between musical tastes around, in general... but that is judging only from posting member content. I think, to an extent, people here have diverse listening tastes, but sometimes it seems like most people around here just listen to electronic music. Who knows what's going on with all the lurkers.

 

- What constitutes "popular music" in this digital age? Is IDM popular music?

I would say "popular music" is more difficult to pin down for me because A) I'm old and I don't know what the kids think is cool these days... and B) when I was younger, "Pop" was either on MTV or the radio so it was immediately obvious. I'm not even sure if you could quantify and artist as being "popular" solely by Spotify plays or YouTube hits, though that is certainly an indicator that someone is popular with somebody. I think if you were to ask me,  pop today is more defined by good old fashioned publicity exposure. Who can still pull big ads, get reviews in print media, win grammys, etc. One caveat: I think, even tho Aphex Twin  won a grammy for Syro and had a couple big MTV vids back in the day, I still would 100% still say he's not "pop", tho he may be the closet thing to it in the IDM-sphere, only because of unanimous critical appeal and longevity. I think your point of AFX cementing his "underground" status by his unconventional behavior is a good one. I'd honestly still probably consider him "underground" because he never really allowed himself to cross over completely into the mainstream in a way that other people do. He never really gave a fuck and at his most popular peak, he always had an air of not really caring who listened to him. I think Warp cared, tho.

 

- Does the online underground exist? What kind of impact does it have on listeners?

I'm not sure? I think the only thing I can really imagine being "underground" is completely distorted by my concept of what "underground" used to mean. An act like Coil for example would be what I considered to be "underground" back in the 90s, though they still had international distribution, etc. Today, I feel like "underground" is probably whatever obscure musical movements are stating to gain traction on Soundcloud or Bandcamp. Because access to music has changed so much, I feel like you could practically interpret anything with only a handful of listens on the internet as "underground"... so I guess I don't exactly think it exists? Well, scratch that. I know people on some indie ambient labels and stuff that I would probably consider "underground". Whatever the case, it's still scene-driven in my opinion. 

[headplastic]

1 hour ago, dingformung said:

"Experimental techno" doesn't work as braindance isn't necessarily experimental or techno-like.

Yeah, good point. I think the music evolved as the artists began to explore the tech and their own musical sensibilities more. What may have started as a sort of experimental techno definitely evolved into something different. I think braindance is a a good term. I mean, there are tonnes of crappy sounding genre names, I think RDJ comments on how silly the name hip-hop sounds, for instance. Such a badass music genre gets a primary school name

[Ivan Ooze]

Only 2 people here liked the new arca, you visited the wrong forum

[dingformung]

23 minutes ago, J3FF3R00 said:

The diversity in the crowd seems to be more in the age range. 

which is unusual

[headplastic]

50 minutes ago, dingformung said:

Please define underground. What exactly differentiates underground from non-underground?

Good question, and as many things are in academia the definition is up for debate (why can't people just agree on shit!). Whatever the case, 'underground,' much like the term 'subculture,' has changed in the last 20 years because of the impact the internet has had on communities and commercialism. The definition my research subscribes to is a community of artists and listeners that operate distinctly apart from mainstream values, popular trends, and widespread attention. The tricky part here is how musicians, such as the Featured Artists on WATMM, make money while remaining "underground" or apart of that community without becoming a sell-out. I argue, as many others do, that they use tactics to shield their underground identity. For example, Aphex Twin skips the Grammys when he wins with Syro, among other examples. This is similar to what you are pointing out @J3FF3R00, thanks for that detailed response btw. These kind of actions protect his subcultural capital, a form of social value that identifies community members respective of their community (eg. this is not a country music community, there is a lot of evidence for that).

The thing with many niche or underground musics these days is that they are not in opposition of mainstream culture so much, at least in a political nature, as are traditional subcultures like Mods, punks, Teddy boys, or rockers.

@Zephyr_NovaI think this is interesting. There is a large sense that idm/braindance evolved with an incredible amount of influences from other types of music, so much so that the production is too complex to simply define. Jazz had a similar problem. Luke Vibert mentions in an interview, "Whenever I’d pop up to London to buy some records they would always just say names of genres I’d never heard of before. You’d think, ‘Oh god,’ we’d just think of it all as dance music, or all acid house, or whatever we called it at the time." Just goes to show that the early ideas some of these guys might of had towards classification never mattered in the first place! But still, it has to sell and thus be categorized.

In terms of what you guys are saying about diversity: Yes the white, educated males with left political views. It is really interesting, and unusual, that the diversity is in age range. I think that says something about the music itself in terms of legacy, but I'm quite sure what it is yet. The phrase "ahead of its time" is mostly banned in the academic circle, hahah. But I'm sure it's something like that.

@Ivan Ooze, just to clarify, by the "new Arca" do you mean post-gender transition Arca? Who identifies as 'she'? Or a new form of music she released? A growing trend right now in academia, and the progressive left, is reconciliation, gender fluidity, racial equality, and the recognition of these topics. So I feel like part of my responsibility in this paper is to discuss these matters. Do you guys think these topics fit into IDM/braindance at all?

[zero]

16 hours ago, headplastic said:

- Would you consider the IDM community a diverse social space?

no, mostly white males ranging in age from 20 - 50 who overwhelmingly adhere to liberal/left-wing ideologies. some of us are even so far past the left and now subscribe to fantastical belief systems not rooted in reality. it would be great if more women or other people from different cultures joined and I really have no idea why they haven't, as people here wouldn't mind at all.

 

16 hours ago, headplastic said:

Is it a cohesive community or fragmented in some way?

cohesive in the sense that we were all at one point drawn to the music that watmm in particular is dedicated to. fragmented when you get into the personal beliefs and attitudes of said people. some of these people are not to be trusted man.

 

17 hours ago, headplastic said:

 

- What constitutes "popular music" in this digital age? Is IDM popular music?

popular = radio pop crap my wife listens to. "The Voice" type stuff. and probably whatever is trending on spotify or those streaming sites.

IDM has never been popular. the most recognizable name is Aphex by far. but even then, most people out there will say something like "oh yeah, isn't that like unh-tst-unh-tst-unh-tst" when Aphex's name is mentioned.

 

17 hours ago, headplastic said:

- Does the online underground exist? What kind of impact does it have on listeners?

isn't watmm considered more or less "underground?" it's certainly no reddit or other mainstream site where people comment back and forth with each other a lot of times about music. only the hacks over at p4k will sometimes drop a watmm reference when they're reviewing Autechre, which I've feared in the past would flood the site with hipsters. it doesn't seemed to have worked though. FYI I found this site when I was searching for Aphex Twin back in like 2001 and it was still called aphextwin.nu. I was looking for content and...

impact would be I've learned about great new music over the years by coming here, and there are certain posters in this community I will usually always check out the albums they recommend in the new releases section of this site.

 

[Ivan Ooze]

the new arca you dumb fuck open your fuckin eyes

[headplastic]

@zero thanks for the responses. I was thinking about the diversity question a lot during my time in-class with my colleagues. Because it seems like a welcoming community, and I've learned quickly that it truly is, but the reason as to why the scene is not more diverse may be due to the white-male history of the genre. Still, from what I've learned about the rave culture (I was born in the 90s), it has always been welcoming, free-spirited, and untainted by bigotry for the most part. I think @Stickfigger makes a good point on that topic.

Also,

4 minutes ago, Stickfigger said:

Loaded phrases without context make that impossible to understand or provide commentary on.

yes, true, the statement is a bit loaded. As I said in my reply to @dingformung, the term 'underground' is a bit finicky in general. There are debates in popular music studies about the defining differences between 'popular, mainstream' and 'underground, subcultural'. But I think you ask good questions here that are worth exploring. Ultimately, I don't think terms like 'underground' are really that useful today. Unless 'alternative' counts as a catch-all

[exitonly]

i would argue that if this is what you've found yourself doing for your thesis, that you should promptly head straight to the university and ask for your money back.

[aencre]

15 minutes ago, Valleyfold said:

Not really, classic IDM wasn’t very identity centered, apart from Aphex Twin’s trolling presentation, which I’m sure some academics could recontextualize as some sort of “queering” lol. They do play a huge role in newer experimental electronic circles though. 

Yeah, «classic IDM» and its surrounding discourse feels pointedly apolitical compared to, say, the industrial music it partly came from, or today’s tape labels. Stuff like the Anti EP or, I dunno, One Very Important Thought really feel like rare, almost polite exceptions to the norm.

Edited January 22, 2021 by aencre
I almost felt like I needed to add a lol after «classic IDM». But that’s the truth : idm is prog.

[Alcofribas]

3 minutes ago, nikisoko said:

i would argue that if this is what you've found yourself doing for your thesis, that you should promptly head straight to the university and ask for your money back.

saying this to everyone i know tbqh 

[ignatius]

too bad the IDM mailing list isn't around.. or is it? i wonder if the list and some messages were archived? it would certainly be a rabbit hole of exploration for better or worse.

i'm sure younger people will have a different take than some of the seasoned fans here. i don't have tons to say on it really. 

here's an anecdote though: in portland, IDM shows from 2004 on (when i moved here) always had a tough time getting a big crowd but had the same general bunch of faces who'd show up. But someone puts together a night for a DJ who got well known at burning man and suddenly literally a thousand new faces come out for it. 

at the same time there was a weekly tuesday night in town called the laptop lounge a bar called the nightlight. some friends did and i was involved every week for a year. it was packed and people heard about it and we'd play records, others would play live and once or twice a relevant person who was in town on tour for a gig would add the night if it worked and we'd get a special set.  also, Autechre sells out every time they play here. last time in 2015 they did 2 sold out shows. there were lot's of people there i've never seen in portland but also lot's of people moved here so they were likely lots of new faces to portland in general. there's some funny tweets and message complaints to the venue about the "in the dark" sets they did so i suspect plenty were new to autechre as well. 

I only mention this because i think, in the USA at least, everything is very much different in every part of the country. west coast in particular has a festival culture but each city.. LA, San Diego, San Francicso also have their own scenes and histories. what's true in New York and Miami might be very different in Wisconsin.  the same way montreal, toronto and Vancouver BC probably add up to different places. 

while sure it's true there's common crossover of certain artists.. miami had a really awesome IDM electro type scene for a while where the weirdest shit would get dropped in a mix and hands would go in the air. 

but the idea of what is popular music is going to vary by geography.. i'm sure the UK is no different.

so, you might need to focus on a region or something and extrapolate out. it might help you focus. 

[ignatius]

18 minutes ago, nikisoko said:

i would argue that if this is what you've found yourself doing for your thesis, that you should promptly head straight to the university and ask for your money back.

i hate to say it because harsh but this was my first though. have all the choices for a thesis been taken already?

but so long as the he's going through with it.. might as well add something to the posts here. wtf else do i have to do today. 

[headplastic]

8 minutes ago, ignatius said:

too bad the IDM mailing list isn't around.. or is it? i wonder if the list and some messages were archived? it would certainly be a rabbit hole of exploration for better or worse.

There are accessible internet archives with some of the back-and-forth conversation on the mailing list, including the first mentions of IDM by Americans

9 minutes ago, ignatius said:

 but the idea of what is popular music is going to vary by geography.. i'm sure the UK is no different.

so, you might need to focus on a region or something and extrapolate out. it might help you focus. 

In terms of geography, COVID disrupted a lot of plans to travel for the research, plus a large portion of my writing is based on social and cultural theory. The discussion around community is why I'm focusing on internet forums that relate to this music. If anything the geographical focus is historical, so yeah it would be UK with mention of the US because that's where the mailing list started.

23 minutes ago, nikisoko said:

i would argue that if this is what you've found yourself doing for your thesis, that you should promptly head straight to the university and ask for your money back.

Yeah I get what you mean, and you guys aren't the first to point this out, but you also don't have the full context of my project. These questions and your responses are being used to represent the community. As I said above, the significant part of my thesis is a theoretical analysis, reanalyzing social theories and cultural theories that help those who write policy and history make decisions. It's a foot-in-the-door to begin a career studying music and culture. Whether it seems pointless to you or not really doesn't concern me. I appreciate the harshness and blunt honesty though, it helps remind me why I do it! I chose IDM because I enjoy talking about it, I identify with the community for the most part, and from a musical perspective it has a lot of unique factors that haven't been touched on. Other scholars have a history of focusing on medieval music and classical music. That kind of thing just didn't jive with me, but hey, plenty of thesis topics still available!

[exitonly]

I was totally joking

[ghsotword]

I don't think I've ever come across an IDM fan who is a Trump supporter, so there seems to be a strong correlation between listening to IDM and having certain political views. The music, track titles or artwork themselves don't usually contain any explicit political messages, though, so it's not obvious to me where this correlation comes from

[headplastic]

@nikisoko /s

12 minutes ago, ghsotword said:

I don't think I've ever come across an IDM fan who is a Trump supporter, so there seems to be a strong correlation between listening to IDM and having certain political views. The music, track titles or artwork themselves don't usually contain any explicit political messages, though, so it's not obvious to me where this correlation comes from

Yeah a few users have touched on this. I have to do some more research to understand why this may be, because it seems like too much of a coincidence! I hate to say it, but you've inspired me with your comment, maybe there is a certain intellectual significance behind "IDM" hahah!! Something to look into at least