Marxist thought

[chronical]

So what did you guys actually learn from this thread?

[Alcofribas]

2 hours ago, chenGOD said:

So what would you think about a successful baker who has one location where demand exceeds her capacity to supply that demand? Should she be denied opening a second location elsewhere in the locality (which would require hiring employees, managing resources, inventory flow, for which I presume she should be financially compensated with respect to her responsibility and risk). Does she suddenly become a capitalist moving from one bakery to opening a second?

i don't understand the question you're asking. why would she "suddenly become a capitalist?" 

presumably this person hires people to assist with the work. the so-called "workers." as she expands she will likely not be doing the stuff you're talking about (rather vague stuff i might add -- "inventory flow?" lol) - this is all stuff that workers will do. for instance, as a regular staff member at a family owned bookstore i have been responsible for "inventory flow" (purchasing/ordering inventory, pricing it, processing it through the inventory system, shelving it on the sales floor, POS transactions, etc) absolutely 0 of which the owner of the store participated with in any way. this is just normal stuff that falls to the workers of a normal small business, owners are not typically in the trenches ordering pens and receipt paper or ringing people up at the register. i think your picture of the small business owner is a little out of touch - in my experience they relegate as much actual work as possible to people they under pay who never see any serious income boost when business does well and the owners just kind of "manage" whatever they want. typically they will enjoy all the perks, buy themselves nice things like new cars or homes or whatever.

they're definitely not ordering "resources" or dealing with inventory in any way. this is for workers and managers. sure, if they are so small they can barely hire any help they will have to do this - but this is generally not the condition of a "successful" small business and basically every business owner will try to ascend from having to do everything by themselves. you should also keep in mind that small businesses typically exploit workers in many other ways precisely bc they are too small to divide the share of work fairly. additionally, they have a lot of boundary fluidity with what they ask of staff - for instance, at the same job i mentioned above i regularly had to drive to the owner's sister's storage units to help her manage and move her massive collection of stuff. it's been completely normal for me as a worker in small businesses to do stuff like this - the owner just asks their employees all kinds of random shit. so when you talk about supply/demand/second stores you definitely have to be more realistic about what that really means on the ground for the people actually doing all that shit. it's quite cringe to see you comment about how the business owner should be "compensated with respect to her responsibility and risk." basically any worker at a small business would find this amusing ime

[Cryptowen]

10 minutes ago, chronical said:

So what did you guys actually learn from this thread?

some notes on optics

[brian trageskin]

7 minutes ago, chronical said:

So what did you guys actually learn from this thread?

i learned that you mustn't put poo poo into your pee-pee. i tried and it got infected.

[Alcofribas]

i mean, basically every single job i have has depended on workers doing way too much work to keep things going. and nearly every single job i have witnesses people working well beyond the efforts put in by the business owners. literal situations where if one under-payed person decided to leave the business would collapse. this is so common that it's kind of stupid to even mention it. it's so common for business owners and even regular managers to have absolutely no idea what's going on in their business. yeah, they're taking a financial risk - and they are also taking all the reward. they do whatever work they feel like doing mostly, or whatever they absolutely must do. but there are always people giving so much more and those are the people who are taking responsibility and risk and seeing basically the same kind of pay and stability as the people who come in and don't give a shit. and no matter how hard they work they will never see the kind of material uplift that owners are capable of. and that is so obviously shit.

[zero]

3 minutes ago, brian trageskin said:

i learned that you mustn't put poo poo into your pee-pee. i tried and it got infected.

[zlemflolia]

https://citationsneeded.libsyn.com/episode-111-how-small-business-rhetoric-is-used-to-protect-corporate-america

“Obama lauds small business owners in his State of the Union,” announced The Washington Post. “I have always said that there is nothing more optimistic – perhaps maybe getting married – than starting a small business,” Speaker Nancy Pelosi tells us. “John Kerry would raise taxes on 900,000 small businesses,” insisted a reelection ad for George W. Bush.

Everywhere we turn we are centering the needs of and reminded of the glowing status of the “small business.” They are the bipartisan holiest of holies in our economy – the scrappy little guy that also props up the moral pillars of capitalism – evidence that with a little elbow grease and knowhow anyone can build a business in their image. Small businesses are one of two major vehicles for COVID-19 relief – a wholly uncontroversial good that both parties, all ideologies, everyone!, can agree are worth protecting and prioritizing.

But what do pundits and politicians mean exactly when they say “small business”? How does our romantic vision of “small business” match up with reality, and how is their plight used as a messaging vanguard to strip away environmental and labor regulations, tort protections, taxes and a host of safeguards against corporate greed?

The rhetoric forces the evocation of a wholesome image of a Mom-and-Pop candy store in Appleton, Wisconsin, in order to push for laws that will ultimately benefit hedge funds, Dupont and Koch Industries, and a murderers row of polluters and worker abusers.

 

Edited May 10, 2021 by cyanobacteria

[milkface]

10 minutes ago, brian trageskin said:

i learned that you mustn't put poo poo into your pee-pee. i tried and it got infected.

you too???? great minds think alike.

[dcom]

37 minutes ago, chronical said:

So what did you guys actually learn from this thread?

It's important to not joust rhetorically with insufferable condescending know-it-alls who think they have all the answers to avoid becoming - or divulging that you yourself already are - one as well.

Edited May 10, 2021 by dcom

[thumbass]

People who believe in Marx and the ideologies that came into fruition as a result of said ideas are on some fucken bullshit

That's all that needs to be said

[milkface]

22 minutes ago, thumbass said:

People who believe in Marx and the ideologies that came into fruition as a result of said ideas are on some fucken bullshit

That's all that needs to be said

insightful. please read a book and come back. cheers mate.

[dcom]

2 minutes ago, milkface said:

insightful. please read a book and come back. cheers mate.

A book, such an erudite yet obtuse suggestion. This would do nicely, wouldn't it? Not very subtle or intellectual, but appropriate for this thread's dramatic arc.

[zlemflolia]

5 minutes ago, dcom said:

A book, such an erudite yet obtuse suggestion. This would do nicely, wouldn't it? Not very subtle or intellectual, but appropriate for this thread's dramatic arc.

i'm sure third world resources extraction workers like miners and lumberjacks having the fruits of their labor and the spoils of their country's land shipped off to first world countries, or workers working in factories only to have their final products which they themselves can't even afford through their own labor, despite being the creators of those products, similarly shipped off, would really appreciate you giving them this book.  it wouldn't be a massive kick in the face and an insult to their human dignity, or an indication of the spoiled nature of first world capitalists, surely

Edited May 10, 2021 by cyanobacteria

[thumbass]

37 minutes ago, milkface said:

insightful. please read a book and come back. cheers mate.

Ah thanks for the tip, I'll read a book and come back with the same thoughts as I had when making the post.

[dcom]

1 hour ago, cyanobacteria said:

i'm sure third world resources extraction workers like miners and lumberjacks having the fruits of their labor and the spoils of their country's land shipped off to first world countries, or workers working in factories only to have their final products which they themselves can't even afford through their own labor, despite being the creators of those products, similarly shipped off, would really appreciate you giving them this book.  it wouldn't be a massive kick in the face and an insult to their human dignity, or an indication of the spoiled nature of first world capitalists, surely

I've always thought that I don't have a sense of humour - or it's at least way off what neurotypicals think of as humour - but you really take humourlessness to a whole another level. You're literally calling people slaves on this thread. You're insulting, condescending and nasty, and it really drives me up a wall that on an electronic music discussion board there's an actual Dementor whose only reason for existence is to   disrespectful and one-upping towards any and all who dare to speak. Yeah, I'm committing blatant ad hominmen here, and I'm not holier than thou, I'm a fucking nuisance, too - but at least I can parse and understand a joke.

 

Edited May 10, 2021 by dcom

[zero]

55 minutes ago, dcom said:

It's important to not joust rhetorically with insufferable condescending know-it-alls who think they have all the answers to avoid becoming - or divulging that you yourself already are - one as well.

for me at least, I try and keep in mind that not everyone that posts here is at the same maturity or life experience level as some of us now into our 40's with kids, partners, mortgages, etc. yes, I know this statement can probably be picked apart to death, as not everyone who is older is always necessarily wiser. but knowing that some watmmers are quite possibly 20+ years younger than some of us, helps keep the frustration in check when I glance through some of the more serious back and forth that goes on here.

 

[dcom]

All animals are equal but some are more equal than others.

Edited May 10, 2021 by dcom

[zlemflolia]

44 minutes ago, dcom said:

I've always thought that I don't have a sense of humour - or it's at least way off what neurotypicals think of as humour - but you really take humourlessness to a whole another level. You're literally calling people slaves on this thread. You're insulting, condescending and nasty, and it really drives me up a wall that on an electronic music discussion board there's an actual Dementor whose only reason for existence is to be disrespectful and one-upping towards any and all who dare to speak. Yeah, I'm committing blatant ad hominmen here, and I'm not holier than thou, I'm a fucking nuisance, too - but at least I can parse and understand a joke.

everyone in this thread is most likely a wage slave.  if you support the bourgeois ideology that keeps you a wage slave rather than allows you to aspire to free associative labor, you are a mental slave as well

i have a sense of humor, but using humor in place of real statements and then still pretending to be right is not humor but rather deflection and distraction

31 minutes ago, dcom said:

All animals are equal but some are more equal than others.

liberals the world over resorting to fictional stories to represent their understanding of the world

Edited May 10, 2021 by cyanobacteria

[zlemflolia]

38 minutes ago, zero said:

for me at least, I try and keep in mind that not everyone that posts here is at the same maturity or life experience level as some of us now into our 40's with kids, partners, mortgages, etc. yes, I know this statement can probably be picked apart to death, as not everyone who is older is always necessarily wiser. but knowing that some watmmers are quite possibly 20+ years younger than some of us, helps keep the frustration in check when I glance through some of the more serious back and forth that goes on here.

 

I'm sorry for not being mature and old enough to accept global capitalist hegemony, imperialism, and capitalist exploitation of the global proletariat.  maybe with age I will realize that everything they're doing is actually completely okay and the unnecessary deaths caused by starvation and lack of medical care in even the richest capitalist countries are actually alright because the bourgeoisie is just trying really hard to provide for our material needs but they just can't keep up with all we expect of their hard working selves. it's not their fault that they have to own everything in the world, in fact it must be a hassle.  they're relieving us of the burden of being able to have democracy in the workplace by just giving us dictatorial orders from on high, which if we disobey will result in us being homeless.  in fact this threat of homelessness keeps us working hard, without them punishing us the global proletariat wouldn't get work done.  thank you bourgeoisie for punishing us like we deserve.  i'm a pathetic slave who not only has been physically colonized by the expectation of wage labor, but mentally colonized by the ideology of the bourgeoisie

this is how you sound

Edited May 10, 2021 by cyanobacteria

[Silent Member]

We should turn this into a drinking game.

[Extralife]

10 minutes ago, cyanobacteria said:

I'm sorry for not being mature and old enough to accept global capitalist hegemony, imperialism, and capitalist exploitation of the global proletariat.  maybe with age I will realize that everything they're doing is actually completely okay and the unnecessary deaths caused by starvation and lack of medical care in even the richest capitalist countries are actually alright because the bourgeoisie is just trying really hard to provide for our material needs but they just can't keep up with all we expect of their hard working selves. it's not their fault that they have to own everything in the world, in fact it must be a hassle.  they're relieving us of the burden of being able to have democracy in the workplace by just giving us dictatorial orders from on high, which if we disobey will result in us being homeless.  in fact this threat of homelessness keeps us working hard, without them punishing us the global proletariat wouldn't get work done.  thank you bourgeoisie for punishing us like we deserve.  i'm a pathetic slave who not only has been physically colonized by the expectation of wage labor, but mentally colonized by the ideology of the bourgeoisie

this is how you sound

Here’s what I see as an casual observer of this “discussion”. 

You are a person who (at times) makes some valid and thought provoking points — but they tend to be completely undermined by your smug, black and white, holier-than-thou attitude. 
 

Might be time to take a break from the net, bud.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Extralife

[dcom]

38 minutes ago, cyanobacteria said:

everyone in this thread is most likely a wage slave.  if you support the bourgeois ideology that keeps you a wage slave rather than allows you to aspire to free associative labor, you are a mental slave as well

i have a sense of humor, but using humor in place of real statements and then still pretending to be right

Oh the poor apparatchik getting trampled by the spit-shined boots of a Western bourgeoisie sycophant?

No.

I was part of the Finnish Pioneer movement from a very early age - my parents were hard-line communists in the 70s (my mother was part of the so-called singing revolution as a member of a group called Agit Prop), and I actually lived the socialist utopian dream, I was there, I had skin in the game, I was not an edgy adult poser: I wore the green shirt, the red scarf, the achievement badges and pins, sang the songs, saluted the flag, repeated the slogans - with pride - I was being explicitly indoctrinated into the system you idolise. My first foreign language at school was Russian. I went to the Pioneer camps, I was part of a group that got to visit the Pioneer Palace in what was then still called Leningrad to participate in the Pioneer International. I was there, willing and eager - but then I understood what it was, and stopped. I was 14.

Get off your soapbox. You have nothing on me. You have the theories down pat, but you haven't lived it.

Edited May 10, 2021 by dcom

[zlemflolia]

5 minutes ago, dcom said:

Oh the poor apparatchik getting trampled by the spit-shined boots of a western bourgeoisie sycophant?

No.

I was part of the Finnish Pioneer movement from a very early age - my parents were hard-line communists in the 70s (my mother was part of the so-called singing revolution as a member of a group called Agit Prop), and I actually lived the socialist utopian dream, I was there, I had skin in the game, I was not an edgy adult poser: I wore the green shirt, the red scarf, the achievement badges and pins, sang the songs, saluted the flag, repeated the slogans - with pride - I was being explicitly indoctrinated into the system you idolise. My first foreign language at school was Russian. I went to the Pioneer camps, I was part of a group that got to visit the Pioneer Palace in what was then still called Leningrad to participate in the Pioneer International. I was there, willing and eager - but then I understood what it was, and stopped. I was 14.

Get off your soapbox. You have nothing on me.

if the conditions of your upbringing made you the determiner of all truths then and now, then those also involved in the same conditions as you who disagree with you and uphold socialism are also the same determines.  but you are contradicting each other.  thus these types of statements are not meaningful.  you may have given up on socialism, but that's just because you've either accepted your conditions as a wage slave or risen to become petty bourgeois yourself.  you don't speak for the global south socialists who are begging for revolution

[dcom]

1 minute ago, cyanobacteria said:

if the conditions of your upbringing made you the determiner of all truths then and now, then those also involved in the same conditions as you who disagree with you and uphold socialism are also the same determines.  but you are contradicting each other.  thus these types of statements are not meaningful.  you may have given up on socialism, but that's just because you've either accepted your conditions as a wage slave or risen to become petty bourgeois yourself.  you don't speak for the global south socialists who are begging for revolution

No, I'm just calling you an insufferable poser. Enjoy.

[zlemflolia]

1 minute ago, dcom said:

No, I'm just calling you an insufferable poser. Enjoy.

you are a beneficiary of social democracy built on the backs of the global proletariat