Marxist thought

[zkom]

Just not to derail the Ukraine thread more asking this here..

@ilqx hermolia xpli Care to elaborate how the dissolution of USSR was illegal? Illegal under what law? I've never heard this kind of legalistic argument and I like all sorts of cooky political stuff.

[ghsotword]

I've seen news stories like this on this topic:
https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-examines-recognition-of-baltic-independence/27102853.html
Anyway, the Baltic states never voluntarily joined the USSR in first place. They were forced to join at gunpoint during World War II. Because of this, I think the question of whether the independence of the Baltic states in 1991 was in accordance with the constitution of the USSR is irrelevant

[zlemflolia]

8 hours ago, zkom said:

Just not to derail the Ukraine thread more asking this here..

@ilqx hermolia xpli Care to elaborate how the dissolution of USSR was illegal? Illegal under what law? I've never heard this kind of legalistic argument and I like all sorts of cooky political stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Soviet_Union_referendum

the vast, vast, vast, majority of the USSR population wanted to keep it together.  the baltic states disagreed though so they should have been allowed to leave but the rest kept together

[chenGOD]

I guess some of you may be interested in this channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCva7xBQlC_a06OvVqfoj0fg

I only found out about it because my friend gave a talk on there (he rambles a bit at the beginning, forgive him, he's in academia):

 

[zkom]

7 hours ago, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Soviet_Union_referendum

the vast, vast, vast, majority of the USSR population wanted to keep it together.  the baltic states disagreed though so they should have been allowed to leave but the rest kept together

You didn't answer my questions. Under what law was it illegal? Legality isn't about popular support.

[zlemflolia]

20 minutes ago, zkom said:

You didn't answer my questions. Under what law was it illegal? Legality isn't about popular support.

http://soviethistory.msu.edu/1991-2/shevarnadze-resigns/shevarnadze-resigns-texts/law-on-secession-from-the-ussr/

Article 2: The decision on a Union republic’s secession from the USSR is made by a free expression of the will of the Union republic’s people by means of a referendum (popular vote). The decision on holding a referendum is made by the Union republic’s Supreme Soviet on its own initiative or at the demand of a petition signed by one-tenth of the USSR citizens permanently resident on the republic’s territory and possessing the right to vote under USSR legislation.

 

a popular vote referendum for each republic to withdraw from the USSR never happened, except for baltics

Edited March 10, 2022 by ilqx hermolia xpli

[zkom]

On 3/10/2022 at 7:06 AM, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

http://soviethistory.msu.edu/1991-2/shevarnadze-resigns/shevarnadze-resigns-texts/law-on-secession-from-the-ussr/

Article 2: The decision on a Union republic’s secession from the USSR is made by a free expression of the will of the Union republic’s people by means of a referendum (popular vote). The decision on holding a referendum is made by the Union republic’s Supreme Soviet on its own initiative or at the demand of a petition signed by one-tenth of the USSR citizens permanently resident on the republic’s territory and possessing the right to vote under USSR legislation.

 

a popular vote referendum for each republic to withdraw from the USSR never happened, except for baltics

There was a referendum in Ukraine on Dec 1st, 1991 where 91% of Ukrainians voted for secession and independence.

But back to the actual dissolution because secession is not really the same thing. There was shit ton happening in 1991, but on Dec 12th the Supreme Soviet of Russian SFRSR ratified the Belazheva accords, that proclaimed that Soviet Union had ceased to exist and CIS was to take it's place. On Dec 25th Gorbachev resigned. On Dec 26th the Soviet of Republics, the upper chamber of the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union, voted the Soviet Union out of existence.

So the Soviet political bodies that legally had the control of the USSR and the republics themselves dissolved the USSR. I don't see how all this was done illegally?

[zlemflolia]

31 minutes ago, zkom said:

There was a referendum in Ukraine on Dec 1st, 1991 where 91% of Ukrainians voted for secession and independence.

But back to the actual dissolution because secession is not really the same thing. There was shit ton happening in 1991, but on Dec 12th the Supreme Soviet of Russian SFRSR ratified the Belazheva accords, that proclaimed that Soviet Union had ceased to exist and CIS was to take it's place. On Dec 25th Gorbachev resigned. On Dec 26th the Soviet of Republics, the upper chamber of the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union, voted the Soviet Union out of existence.

So the Soviet political bodies that legally had the control of the USSR and the republics themselves dissolved the USSR. I don't see how all this was done illegally?

well whatever, maybe youre right, im not a lawyer and written law can have all sorts of abuses put on top of it while still being legal, it is at the very least undemocratic and extremely harmful to the people as the rampant prostitution, starvation, homelessness, and decreased life expectency shows.  im not convinced it was legal though the people didn't agree to it and the people give consent to be governed

[zkom]

Thanks to the Russia's invasion of Ukraine there's a lot of talk about removing soviet era (and possibly tsarist era) statues from Finland, a sort of de-Finlandization. First one to go is this communist abomination from Helsinki.

[zlemflolia]

moving this to the marxism thread to add more comments later

 

[zlemflolia]

 

[milkface]

Capitalism is evil

[zlemflolia]

gorbachev is dead

 

FUCK that guy LMAO

[iococoi]

[aderei]

Couple of things:

Probably already mentioned? Maybe I'm stating the obvious 

1. Marxism and the USSR aren't the same

2. The Cold War being won by the U.S isn't the same as the USSR failing even though it would have even without constant undermining by the U.S

3. The USSR collapsing isn't proof of Communisms weakness 

4. Capitalism is collapsing

[cruising for burgers]

lol

[Wunderbar]

Do you guys go to school or something? how do you know this stuff?

[prdctvsm]

food 4 thought ... communism = capitalism = NWO™ :