Decolonizing Electronic Music Starts With Its Software (Pitchfork article + browser apps)

[TubularCorporation]

9 minutes ago, ascdi said:

Huh, dunno. This is an argument that I feel like I’ve heard a bunch of times before, tbh. I feel like you have beef with some possible, but by no means certain, third- or fourth-order knock-on effects of what such an article could cause hypothetical people, whom you already do not like, to feel or do. That’s fair, but subtle, hypothetical, possible effects of the article should take a back seat to the main thrust of the article, which (I gather) is more about increasing inclusion _of something_ in a non-zero way. That’s not a terrible thing to happen. I’m not sure how an article could be written to increase representation equally across the board for all underrepresented groups in music, maybe a smart person could figure out how to write that. And if this article isn’t that, then maybe what you are saying is that this article is imperfect? Which is probably true. But that doesn’t mean it’s bad that it exists, IMO.

That's not really what I was talking about at all, though.

[chenGOD]

23 hours ago, rhmilo said:

Aleksi uses samples. Go to the Colundi site. You can download them,

Proves the point. As does the list of microtuning capable software posted earlier:  there’s not a single major DAW on that list.

Look, I find the tone in which accusations like these are made just as distasteful as everyone else here,  but the fact of the matter is the West has done a real number on the rest of the world and people have every right to point that out.

colundi.net is down, but I'm relatively sure that Aleksi uses generative software. From an interview he gave: "I play with sine waves mostly and build my sounds from them; I love to play around with harmonics." This is supposedly the "colundi keyboard".

As @TubularCorporationpointed out, every version of Logic is on that list. As well, Cakewalk, Cubase/Nuendo are two other major sequencing environments/DAWs that are included in there.

Kontakt, Cycling74,  all the Native Instruments synthesizing environments, they all get plugged in to DAWs and can be tuned however you want. Sure I guess it takes some time and effort to do it, but I also guess everything worthwhile does?

At the end of the day, I don't think there is a serious issue here, and the article is garbage.

18 hours ago, ascdi said:

if you want to “make it” in electronic music, it is very hard to do so without engaging thoroughly with westernized music culture and expectations

If you want to "make it" in electronic music in the western world then you have to engage with westernized music culture. Given that techno/disco/house/IDM what have you arose in the "west" is that really surprising? Like I don't understand this argument at all. If I wanted to make it in Cumbia, I would have to engage with those traditions and cultures (I realize cumbia may not be the best example, given its origins in actual colonization). If this POV makes me a racist colonialist, I guess I'm a racist colonialist.

[Thu Zaw]

1 hour ago, chenGOD said:

(I realize cumbia may not be the best example, given its origins in actual colonization). If this POV makes me a racist colonialist, I guess I'm a racist colonialist.

Cultures have never existed in a vacuum and they don't arrise out of nowhere. All cultures are an evolution and constant blending of influences, whether through migration, invasion, colonisation, cross-cultural unity. If beauty can be created through the exchange of ideas and practices, bring it on. 

There's no such thing as an ethnically or culturally homogeneous land anywhere on earth. There's no such thing as cultural purity.

I celebrate the evolution and unity of cultural ideas, practices and arts.

Creatives everywhere love to push the limits of their tools in order to express themselves. Evolution of music tech that adapts to these new practices is always happening. 

 

I often write music which uses samples, instruments or ideas from cultures that are (not my own, ie they don't match my ethnic heritage). You can call me a cultural appropriator or whatever. But it's my passion. 

 

Track of mine from 2006, made on Reason.

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by Thu Zaw
Typo

[Limo]

5 hours ago, chenGOD said:

"I play with sine waves mostly and build my sounds from them;

Right, and those sine waves are sampled. The colundi sequence is a sequence of frequencies and since those frequencies can't be played using regular sequencers, he creates samples sine waves at those specific frequencies. You can (or could, apparently) download those samples from colundi.net.

5 hours ago, chenGOD said:

As @TubularCorporationpointed out, every version of Logic is on that list. As well, Cakewalk, Cubase/Nuendo are two other major sequencing environments/DAWs that are included in there.

 

Logic can only do twelve tone scales. You can change which twelve tones those are made up of, but still, you'll have to make do with no more and no less than twelve tones. Useless.

Cakewalk is not on that list, only some of its included instruments are. I don't see Cubase and Nuendo either. Are we looking at the same list?What does that have to do with anything?

 

5 hours ago, chenGOD said:

Kontakt, Cycling74,  all the Native Instruments synthesizing environments, they all get plugged in to DAWs and can be tuned however you want. Sure I guess it takes some time and effort to do it, but I also guess everything worthwhile does?

Well, yes, and that is exactly the point: with a lot of effort and additional tools, you can make it work but for plain MIDI sequencing DAWs will only let you use the standard Western 12 tone scale.

[ascdi]

6 hours ago, chenGOD said:

If you want to "make it" in electronic music in the western world then you have to engage with westernized music culture. Given that techno/disco/house/IDM what have you arose in the "west" is that really surprising? Like I don't understand this argument at all. If I wanted to make it in Cumbia, I would have to engage with those traditions and cultures (I realize cumbia may not be the best example, given its origins in actual colonization). If this POV makes me a racist colonialist, I guess I'm a racist colonialist.

I didn’t call anyone any names in this thread.

I guess it depends on your mental model of how the music culture works. If you think all music cultures start equal, like there are house music message boards, house music record labels, house music live gigs and fanbases, drum and bass message boards, drum and bass record labels, drum and bass live gigs and fanbases, Iranian (to pick a non-western culture that has been mentioned here at random) electronic music message boards, Iranian electronic music record labels, Iranian electronic music live gigs and fanbases, etc., then I can at least see how you get to the argument that each culture has enough resources and “stuff” and should stay in their own lane, so to speak.

I don’t really think that. I think that the vast majority of electronic music culture is centered on the western world. Learning resources, record labels, gig opportunities, access to fans, etc. All — in my opinion — skew incredibly heavily toward westerners. I’m sure people can find counter-examples but I still think we’re talking orders of magnitude difference in the amount of “stuff”.

Beyond that, the actual issue is for people to have access to not only the same amount of stuff, but actually the same stuff. Not trying to be inflammatory here, but “separate but equal” didn’t work out so good last time.

And also, I don’t want to be part of a music monoculture. That sucks. It benefits everyone if people with new ideas and different backgrounds are invited into ONE music culture. This is why Colundi sequences rewire our western brains, because we’ve spent our entire lives listening to equal tempered 12-tone bullshit.

I love Aleksi’s work a ton, but honestly it’s telling that the second other tuning systems are mentioned here, half the discussion jumps to a western musician who only recently has started dabbling with micro tuning, instead of like, the massive extant cultures and musical languages from around the world for whom “alternate” (even this term completely misses the point) tunings are an integral part of like, centuries of musical tradition.

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by ascdi

[Thu Zaw]

Let it also be said that a plethora of musicians from countries where their classical or folk music uses non Western tuning, DO happily create music using Western tuning and western genre styles. 

For example, I know that the psych/prog/mathrock scene is banging in Pakistan right now. 

This is not an argument for any "side". Just a piece of information worth adding to add to the conversation.

[chenGOD]

1 hour ago, rhmilo said:

Logic can only do twelve tone scales. You can change which twelve tones those are made up of, but still, you'll have to make do with no more and no less than twelve tones. Useless.

Cakewalk is not on that list, only some of its included instruments are. I don't see Cubase and Nuendo either. Are we looking at the same list?What does that have to do with anything?

The website that I posted. 

Scala is a preexisting interface that allows for Logic to do micro tuning.

[Thu Zaw]

Sorry @auxien, what I clearly meant to say is all non white people in foreign countries are poor and live in mud huts, are a simple, monolithic people who hit bongo drums and primitive instruments and ponder capitalist, imperialist oppressive USA all day long. 

 

 

[auxien]

5 minutes ago, Thu Zaw said:

Sorry @auxien, what I clearly meant to say is all non white people in foreign countries are poor and live in mud huts, are a simple, monolithic people who hit bongo drums and primitive instruments and ponder capitalist, imperialist oppressive USA all day long. 

u r far 2 enlitened 4 me m8

[chenGOD]

1 hour ago, ascdi said:

I think that the vast majority of electronic music culture is centered on the western world. Learning resources, record labels, gig opportunities, access to fans,

I mean, given that the kind of music we are talking arguable started in Detroit, and took hold largely in Western Europe is this so surprising?

There are many Japanese message boards and fans that conduct “the business” almost strictly in Japanese. Korea too. 

Yes access to more is great and wonderful, but I think the issue is that saying someone has been oppressed by Ableton Live (which was designed for four on the floor/sample based music) is kind of a stretch.  

1 hour ago, ascdi said:

love Aleksi’s work a ton, but honestly it’s telling that the second other tuning systems are mentioned here, half the discussion jumps to a western musician who only recently has started dabbling with micro tuning

I mean we could do Wendy Carlos well-tempered clavier, or a plethora of other electronic musicians that have made records that explore micro tuning. 
 

To me it’s like saying I feel oppressed that I can’t play traditional Japanese koto music on a 6 string. 
 

ps I’m not saying you called anyone names, it was just a bad exaggeration of my feelings. 

[chenGOD]

2 hours ago, rhmilo said:

Right, and those sine waves are sampled. The colundi sequence is a sequence of frequencies and since those frequencies can't be played using regular sequencers, he creates samples sine waves at those specific frequencies

I’m curious how you think “electronic music” is made?

[brian trageskin]

3 hours ago, ascdi said:

we’ve spent our entire lives listening to equal tempered 12-tone bullshit.

this is the dumbest shit i've read all day, congrats on that

[ignatius]

idk what this means. 

[brian trageskin]

7 minutes ago, ignatius said:

idk what this means. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Stravinsky#Serial_period_(1954–1968)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-tone_technique

[kuniklo]

I've been living in Asia for over ten years now and the pop music people actually listen to doesn't use non 12-tone tunings. Anybody that's really concerned about "colonialism" in music first needs to go after the US major labels and their insidious marketing.

[kuniklo]

Also, while I agree it would be good for sequencers to support other tunings directly, synths like Absynth have supported user-definable tunings for many years now.

[ignatius]

25 minutes ago, kuniklo said:

go after the US major labels and their insidious marketing.

there's still major labels? 

[kuniklo]

The other problem I have with articles like this and other progressive crusades is that they create a lot of drama and controversy around relatively minor issues and that sucks all the energy out of the room for the more important issues that really affect people's lives. If you want to address musical colonialism then first go after the music business that drives local acts out with American top 40 garbage. It's like arguing that vegans are destroying local food culture and ignoring KFC and McDonalds.

Just now, ignatius said:

there's still major labels? 

Very much so and dictating tastes more than ever before since with all the new music coming out now having the biggest marketing budget counts more than anything.

[auxien]

On 5/12/2021 at 1:42 AM, dcom said:

Pitchfork article, Leimma, Apotome.

actually read the Pitchfork article instead of skimming it and i think the biggest problem is how poorly it's written (which is not surprising given it's from Pitchfork). but it presents the argument in a muddy context from the get-go. (props for plenty of input from artists tho) ...the argument itself is great of course, any DAW that isn't inherently supporting things as basic as alternate tuning systems is limiting themselves and their users. very simple.

[Limo]

12 hours ago, Thu Zaw said:

For example, I know that the psych/prog/mathrock scene is banging in Pakistan right now. 

They’re also putting on Shakespeare plays in Pakistan. So?

[TubularCorporation]

Ugh, I blame chronic pain for putting me in a state where participating in INTERNET DISCOURSE seemed like a good idea.

 

Anyway, colonialism bad.  Making DAWs more flexible good, but won't actually solve anything.

[Wunderbar]

Has no one seen the new mts esp plugin that has been released recently? Its makes making microtonal music so easy no one can complain anymore the tools are there.

[TubularCorporation]

16 hours ago, rhmilo said:

Logic can only do twelve tone scales. You can change which twelve tones those are made up of, but still, you'll have to make do with no more and no less than twelve tones. Useless.

Logic can literally load Scala files.

[TubularCorporation]

16 hours ago, ascdi said:

I’m sure people can find counter-examples but I still think we’re talking orders of magnitude difference in the amount of “stuff”.

If we're going by sales and popularity, Indian film music has been globally dominant for DECADES, and unless something has changed drastically in the last decade or so it still is.  The fact that people outside of the parts of the world that are majority Muslim or Hindu (which is where it's most popular) don't know this says more about neocolonialism than the piano roll in a DAW does.

 

Anyhow, diatonic scales as we know them originated in India or China, but what we're really talking about when we talk about "Western music theory" is about 300 years old and was driven by technology. Advancements in metallurgy during the industrial revolution allowed the development and mass manufacture of the modern piano, the difficulty of retuning a piano to the key of every piece you played like you would have normally done with a harpsichord or clavichord led to the development of equal temperament, and equal temperament is what enabled diatonic harmony as we understand it to day to exist.

 

I have to make breakfast, I'm not going to try to continue a half-assed, off-the-cuff summary of decades of interdisciplinary academic work that I've only read a tiny bit of myself, so I'm just going to end it by saying that the article in question reminds me of rhetoric I've heard from private consulting firms that help real estate investment companies "work with community leaders" in depressed neighborhoods to build gentrified versions of the local community spaces that had been destroyed by real estate investment companies.  Like another version of the "using capitalism to solve the problems inherent to capitalism" routine.

 

 

Oh, and it's only tangentially related to the conversation but since I imagine most of the people here who would like it are in this thread I just want to recommend this book again, because it's fucking GREAT: https://www.amazon.com/Sound-Culture-Diaspora-Black-Technopoetics/dp/0819575771

[ArtificialDisco]

1 hour ago, Wunderbar said:

Has no one seen the new mts esp plugin that has been released recently? Its makes making microtonal music so easy no one can complain anymore the tools are there.

This is pretty awesome. At the moment I'm playing the Indian Shruti tuning through the Surge plugin, using the free version of mts esp. I also came across this list: https://en.xen.wiki/w/List_of_Microtonal_Software_Plugins, which was helpful. There's also a lot of pre-made tunings available on-line, such as this site: https://sevish.com/music-resources/

This whole thing is kind of making me interested in mircotunings now.