Jump to content

Recommended Posts

3 minutes ago, Claudius t Ansuulim said:

If you were indeed as big of a history buff as you claim then you would know that much of what we know of modern medicine came from those very experiments, and similarly unethical experiments conducted in the decades that followed wwii

I admit my understanding of medical history is not as advanced as yours. for instance, I did not know that there was a cure for irony. 

  • Like 7
  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Claudius t Ansuulim said:

If you were indeed as big of a history buff as you claim then you would know that much of what we know of modern medicine came from those very experiments, and similarly unethical experiments conducted in the decades that followed wwii

Nazi experiments were terribly unscientific and yielded close to zero usable results.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

you can't fight crazy with facts, folks. you have to fight it with even more crazy. make it borderline believable though. like:

THIS IS ALL AN EXPERIMENT BEING CONDUCTED. THE WORLD HEATLH ORGANIZATION HARVESTED COVID FROM ALIEN FETUSES. AND THEN THEY HANDED IT TO THEIR REPITILIAN COUSINS WORKING IN THE HIGHEST RANKS, WHO INJECTED IT INTO BATS TO SPREAD TO HUMANS, ALL BECAUSE THEY WANTED JOE BIDEN TO WIN! 

  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, zero said:

you can't fight crazy with facts, folks. you have to fight it with even more crazy. make it borderline believable though. like:

THIS IS ALL AN EXPERIMENT BEING CONDUCTED. THE WORLD HEATLH ORGANIZATION HARVESTED COVID FROM ALIEN FETUSES. AND THEN THEY HANDED IT TO THEIR REPITILIAN COUSINS WORKING IN THE HIGHEST RANKS, WHO INJECTED IT INTO BATS TO SPREAD TO HUMANS, ALL BECAUSE THEY WANTED JOE BIDEN TO WIN! 

read somewhere that narrative needs to be raised that the unvaccinated/anti-vaxxers are part of the experimental process and are considered the control group and they could fuck up the experiment if they got vaccinated. 

  • Haha 1
  • Farnsworth 1
  • Big Brain 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Claudius t Ansuulim said:

case-fatality rate. This is not the same as survivorship

Case fatality rate is the proportion of deaths from a certain disease compared to the total number of people diagnosed with the disease for a particular period. So yeah, this is the survivorship rate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While I think pretty much everyone 18 or over should probably go for the vaccine for their own sake, I think we're getting way ahead of ourselves with all the mandate and vaccine passport business.

Sure as a member of the fully vaccinated group go ahead and give me the perks like avoiding testing and quarantine, I'm not complaining. But I haven't seen much convincing evidence that I'm really protecting anyone but myself. The vaccines are being way oversold at the moment to convince as many as possible to get them. Read the fine print and you'll see the data on protection from infection and transmission are mostly pre-Delta, and what we do know about Delta in the vaccinated is mixed at best.

In Belgium we're headed for at least 85% vaccination among ages 18+, at those rates I really think hospital saturation is less of a concern and we need not demonize the unvaccinated minority or treat them as second-rate citizens, at least not until we know for a fact they are truly still more of a risk to others in the real world and not in some pre-Delta research paper.

Besides, it seems obvious this shit is now going endemic for the foreseeable future, and given Delta's infectiousness it won't be long at all until everyone who doesn't die acquires some basic immunity one way or the other. I also don't think we are necessarily headed for endless booster shots in the general population, if we keep running into the virus at every turn that should be enough to keep us immune/it mostly harmless. We might see new or updated vaccines that are worth it, but for now the talk of boosters centers around the higher risk groups.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, manmower said:

While I think pretty much everyone 18 or over should probably go for the vaccine for their own sake, I think we're getting way ahead of ourselves with all the mandate and vaccine passport business.

Sure as a member of the fully vaccinated group go ahead and give me the perks like avoiding testing and quarantine, I'm not complaining. But I haven't seen much convincing evidence that I'm really protecting anyone but myself. The vaccines are being way oversold at the moment to convince as many as possible to get them. Read the fine print and you'll see the data on protection from infection and transmission are mostly pre-Delta, and what we do know about Delta in the vaccinated is mixed at best.

In Belgium we're headed for at least 85% vaccination among ages 18+, at those rates I really think hospital saturation is less of a concern and we need not demonize the unvaccinated minority or treat them as second-rate citizens, at least not until we know for a fact they are truly still more of a risk to others in the real world and not in some pre-Delta research paper.

Besides, it seems obvious this shit is now going endemic for the foreseeable future, and given Delta's infectiousness it won't be long at all until everyone who doesn't die acquires some basic immunity one way or the other. I also don't think we are necessarily headed for endless booster shots in the general population, if we keep running into the virus at every turn that should be enough to keep us immune/it mostly harmless. We might see new or updated vaccines that are worth it, but for now the talk of boosters centers around the higher risk groups.

I disagree. As a fully vaccinated parent of a baby who can’t be vaccinated, it’s maddening to live in the USA with an unwavering 50-ish% vaccination rate. My life and my families lives are going to be severely impaired by a vast amount of selfish fuckstains for the foreseeable future. 
Beyond that, my wife has a compromised immune system and the vaccine may potentially not be as effective for her. So fuck that. Mandate everything, imo. Let’s actually end this fucking thing already. 
It will keep on mutating and getting weirder the longer people give it the chance to. 
 

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@manmower You may not think mandating vaccinations is a good idea now, with COVID-19 being a relatively benign virus and all, but what about when we’re hit with something truly serious like SARS?

Like it or not we’re probably heading towards a future where governments become much harsher in telling us what to do so we can continue to live together in those incredibly densely packed cities of ours without everyone getting killed. Think China - but hopefully without the Uighur thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@rhmilo I'm not against the concept of mandatory vaccination in general, I'm saying in this case I'm on the fence concerning a mandate for the general population, and wary of giving too many privileges to the vaccinated and risk sending the message that they are no longer a risk to others, which we don't know. Living in a region with a very high voluntary vaccination rate, about as high as one could hope for I think, with severe disease and mortality seemingly under control for the time being, I say maybe wait a little while for the smoke to clear. For context, I believe the polio vaccine is the only one mandated in Belgium and in practice the rates are 90+% for many others (measles, tetanus, etcetera).

@J3FF3R00 I appreciate the situation is much different when you're stuck at 50% and run a greater risk of unvaccinated patients clogging up your hospitals again and/or triggering strict measures that severely impact your daily life as well. The case for altruistic vaccination is much stronger in your environment than it is for the remaining unvaccinated minority here in Belgium. At least until it's established that the vaccinated are still less prone to infection or less infectuous with this Delta variant, and I don't think we're there yet.

For the record it looks like the vaccines still do a phenomenal job of protecting against severe disease and death, but they do not live up to the expectations created by research done in the pre-Delta world. They will not stop the virus spreading and mutating anytime soon. So while they may end and prevent a lot of misery they are not going to end the disease. The sooner people are honestly informed about this the better.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, manmower said:

Living in a region with a very high voluntary vaccination rate, about as high as one could hope for I think, with severe disease and mortality seemingly under control for the time being, I say maybe wait a little while for the smoke to clear

Yes, I believe you’re right and that this is the critical point. As long as enough people voluntarily take the vaccine it’s probably wisest not to force matters.

At the same time I also believe this crisis has exposed some serious weaknesses in Western (European) societies. All this having to tiptoe around individual liberties at the cost of everything else has made dealing with the pandemic rather messy and difficult. The contrast with East Asia is stark, of course, but there I’m also thinking of a place like Ghana where the government said “there’s a virus going around, keep your distance and be careful” and that is exactly what people did because, unlike Brits, say, or Dutchmen, they were not stupid.

Like Belgians, apparently. Despite their reputation for anarchy and governmental ineptitude they seem to have handled the pandemic quite well (for a Western country).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, manmower said:

While I think pretty much everyone 18 or over should probably go for the vaccine for their own sake, I think we're getting way ahead of ourselves with all the mandate and vaccine passport business.

Sure as a member of the fully vaccinated group go ahead and give me the perks like avoiding testing and quarantine, I'm not complaining. But I haven't seen much convincing evidence that I'm really protecting anyone but myself. The vaccines are being way oversold at the moment to convince as many as possible to get them. Read the fine print and you'll see the data on protection from infection and transmission are mostly pre-Delta, and what we do know about Delta in the vaccinated is mixed at best.

In Belgium we're headed for at least 85% vaccination among ages 18+, at those rates I really think hospital saturation is less of a concern and we need not demonize the unvaccinated minority or treat them as second-rate citizens, at least not until we know for a fact they are truly still more of a risk to others in the real world and not in some pre-Delta research paper.

Besides, it seems obvious this shit is now going endemic for the foreseeable future, and given Delta's infectiousness it won't be long at all until everyone who doesn't die acquires some basic immunity one way or the other. I also don't think we are necessarily headed for endless booster shots in the general population, if we keep running into the virus at every turn that should be enough to keep us immune/it mostly harmless. We might see new or updated vaccines that are worth it, but for now the talk of boosters centers around the higher risk groups.

which vaccine? pfizer is doing pretty well against delta variant. still break through cases but so far those people are only experiencing mild symptoms *mostly*.  we'll probably get a booster at some point of same vaccine or new version that is modified for other variants. i think israel is doing boosters for over 65 people who are 6 months from their 2nd shot. 

i don't think the vaccines are being oversold when you consider they can prevent serious case of the disease. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, rhmilo said:

At the same time I also believe this crisis has exposed some serious weaknesses in Western (European) societies. All this having to tiptoe around individual liberties at the cost of everything else has made dealing with the pandemic rather messy and difficult.

yes. western societies have always been more "me" centric than eastern (individualist vs. collectivist in psychology). this level of individualism has gotten far worse thanks to social media, where the "me" is now giving said individual the opinion that they are much more important than the nameless, faceless others out there, and therefore their needs are much greater than that of the rest of the group. this is what we are seeing full on now with the vaccine hesitancy. people proclaiming it is my body, and I shouldn't be forced to put anything I don't want in it. including a potentially life saving vaccine, that is being distributed in the hope of benefitting all of society. people are thinking about their needs, and not what's best for the group.

and of course, it is impossible to change this line of thinking in a short amount of time. the second you start discussing limiting individual freedom, everyone gets all up in arms and throws their personal opinion into it. then you wrap in political motivations and it's argue argue argue with nothing good ever really coming out of it.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, zero said:

you can't fight crazy with facts, folks. you have to fight it with even more crazy. make it borderline believable though. like:

THIS IS ALL AN EXPERIMENT BEING CONDUCTED. THE WORLD HEATLH ORGANIZATION HARVESTED COVID FROM ALIEN FETUSES. AND THEN THEY HANDED IT TO THEIR REPITILIAN COUSINS WORKING IN THE HIGHEST RANKS, WHO INJECTED IT INTO BATS TO SPREAD TO HUMANS, ALL BECAUSE THEY WANTED JOE BIDEN TO WIN! 

AND PANGOLINS!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What about distrust in government, "elites", corporations, etc? Have those ever operated in the interest of people? If anything, it is obvious that well-being of workers and the people have always been off the table. So much in fact that they actively suppress civilian initiatives that try to bring back the balance. It was always profits first, and personal agendas first. Decades of uncovering corruption, lobbying, criminal acts in the highest places of our society with no justice in sight, how's that for curating trust? Before this pandemic, the big pharma was one of the most hated and suspicious entities, and now, it's like the collective memory has been erased. Suddenly, big pharma is our savior, and even non-fda approved vaccines are widely accepted, and the debate about alternative cures (ivermectin for instance) are being censored, and suppressed in the name of "spreading disinformation". Even doctors and qualified experts and scientists are afraid to do their job, because they are afraid of public and institutionalized ridicule. How's that for fostering trust? mRNA vaccines are untested, and a non-standard remedy, yet no usual research of side effects is allowed. Everything is hidden in private labs with WHO as a gatekeeper under questionable leadership at best. Because of that, I'm extremely suspicious about the current situation, and the vaccine being so aggressively pushed.

In the last year or so, I've been very exposed, and could've gotten covid anytime, yet, I haven't noticed a single symptom. I haven't been ill for several years now, not even from common cold. None of the people I know, and my wider family experienced none of the symptoms, nor had any test positive. This is why I'm sceptic about the "dire need" for a vaccine, when there are actual deadly diseases all around the world, with bigger body counts, and no one cares to make a rushed development of vaccine. So many things were handled weirdly: panic mongering from all fronts instead of trying to calm people, "elites" making huge profits off it, atrificial origin of the virus with chinese military lab being involved, and then not allowing international inspection, declaring pandemic when it hasn't been that yet, faking death body count (Bergamo, Italy), faking positive results to keep up the relevancy, and again, people and organisations making profits off tests without any supervision... idk know man, it stinks, like a pile of shit to me.

  • Facepalm 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ignatius said:

which vaccine? pfizer is doing pretty well against delta variant. still break through cases but so far those people are only experiencing mild symptoms *mostly*.  we'll probably get a booster at some point of same vaccine or new version that is modified for other variants. i think israel is doing boosters for over 65 people who are 6 months from their 2nd shot. 

i don't think the vaccines are being oversold when you consider they can prevent serious case of the disease. 

I don't think there are hard contradictions between my posts and yours. I'm 100% pro vaccine and agree all of those that were available to me are already awesome as is, so awesome in fact that I suspect for many of the vaccinated they've already brought the subjective threat of COVID down to a completely acceptable level where they just want to carry on with their lives. I'm actually optimistic those parts of the planet with higher vaccination rates might be close to some sort of resolution where they can gradually allow the virus to circulate and not worry about it too much, maybe after next fall or so. The alternative is to double down and not settle for a level of risk we considered fine before this pandemic, an alternative which would deeply change society forever.

I know it's probably overly pessimistic to entertain the thought that we vaccinated people might be as susceptible to (asymptomatic) infection from Delta as the unvaccinated, and equally infectious for equally long, unknowingly infecting others... I don't really expect that will prove to be the case but the fact is we don't know to what extent we are(n't) and that seems relevant in deciding what privileges we should enjoy and how much coercion should be used to get people to take the shots.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, cichlisuite said:

Before this pandemic, the big pharma was one of the most hated and suspicious entities, and now, it's like the collective memory has been erased.

no, it has not. nobody suddenly loves big pharma. it's just that some people are capable of weighing evils against one another and pragmatically choosing a lesser one. there is currently no sensible alternative to entertaining big pharma in this situation because they're the only ones who can produce and distribute an effective vaccine, it's that simple. I'll leave all the junk science around "vaccines aren't necessary" out of it, not interested in arguing about that at this point. and the "I'm not sick and nobody I know has gotten sick" argument is completely laughable given all the scenes that have been seen around the world in the last year and a half. people who spout that nonsense deserve all the ridicule they get.

when presented with a difficult or complex scenario in which there are few or no "good" options, a person's ability to discriminate effectively and pick the most appropriate option, rather than having their brain auto-snap to the one that aligns most with their prejudices or fears, makes all the difference. the huddled masses' frequent inability to do this is ironically the same reason the wrong people keep get into powerful positions and help create the resistance to systematic change/reform that you referenced - they exploit people's stupidity and paranoia.

  • Like 7
  • Thanks 1
  • Farnsworth 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

57 minutes ago, cichlisuite said:

In the last year or so, I've been very exposed, and could've gotten covid anytime, yet, I haven't noticed a single symptom. I haven't been ill for several years now, not even from common cold. None of the people I know, and my wider family experienced none of the symptoms, nor had any test positive. This is why I'm sceptic about the "dire need" for a vaccine, when there are actual deadly diseases all around the world, with bigger body counts, and no one cares to make a rushed development of vaccine. 

as @rhmilo mentioned, case in point. a lot of "I" there. it ain't all about you dude and what your personal experience with covid has been like. that's egotistical trump shit right there. sometimes you gotta do something for the greater good of things, y'know for the "we." 

and so crazy that tons of places in this world are screaming right now for the vaccine, yet here in the U.S., we are tossing out expired vaccine because we have so much of it.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

Alberta - "Hold my beer" (On Aug. 16, people who test positive for COVID-19 will not be mandated to quarantine anymore...)

Alberta, aka "Texas of the north" still has a way to go though before catching up to the dumbassery going on here:

https://news.yahoo.com/texas-governor-threatens-fines-local-012211820.html

 

Quote

government entities including county, city, school-district, or public-health authorities cannot issue mask mandates. Local government entities that violate the policy and require face coverings may be fined up to $1,000.

The order adds that government entities cannot “compel any individual to receive a COVID-19 vaccine administered under an emergency use authorization.”

 

  • Haha 1
  • Facepalm 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Still very baffled by the fact Covid/Mask/Vaccine are politicized. Still very baffled that its perceived as this world order elite regime invention and conspiration.

When you take the virus in itself, it's an objectively existing dangerous illness with objectively existing preventions methods and solutions not that much different from any other medical conditions. Not very complicated. If youre not careful its transmitted. Vaccine help to prevent transmission and illness. Lockdown controls it. For me, its the same as a broken arm and a plaster cast to fix it, or a cancer, or any other medical conditions.

Should be quite simple to understand. Yet....because it has a global scale and it's an invisible virus, it complicate things, lots of sphere of human activity become affected and it really breakdown quickly.

Human like to complicate things i guess. Seems to happen every now and then from what ive read about past  pandemics, anti-maskers and conspiration just pop up... it seems part of it is almost inevitable to some degree. We have to do the best we can, compliance will never be 100% even in things like deadly viruses. Human diversity inevitably brings chaos and divergence even in simple things like pineapple on pizza so a global scale virus...

The thing is of course the virus thrives on this chaos and must be really grateful of our lack of coordination and chaotic strategy to fight it as a species.

Edited by thefxbip
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.