harmony

[vkxwz]

46 minutes ago, IOS said:

 So earlier I was referring to the sensation you get when two tones are so close to each other that you end up hearing 'beating'.

Agreed that an augmented fifth/minor sixth (C-G#) will sound more tense than a perfect fifth (C-G), but it also depends on the context. Of course, by the same token, a C-F# would be far more dissonant than a C-G.

Have a look at this article:

https://mutor-2.github.io/MUTOR/units/04.html

..which says amongst others that historically some intervals were perceived dissonant at first, but were gradually accepted as consonant.

Yeah so I agree about the beating part, I find that part less interesting overall though because I think it plays less of a role that the other part of dissonance, which is the part common between C4 C#4 and C4 C#5, and the thing you perceive in monophonic melodies where the notes arent played at the same time but the interval is a huge part of the emotion of it. There are some interesting things in that article, but it still seems to stress closeness of frequencies as the main predictor of dissonance which i dont find too convincing

[IOS]

10 hours ago, vkxwz said:

Yeah so I agree about the beating part, I find that part less interesting overall though because I think it plays less of a role that the other part of dissonance, which is the part common between C4 C#4 and C4 C#5, and the thing you perceive in monophonic melodies where the notes arent played at the same time but the interval is a huge part of the emotion of it. There are some interesting things in that article, but it still seems to stress closeness of frequencies as the main predictor of dissonance which i dont find too convincing

Consider the intervals not as they are laid out on a piano, but as they appear in the harmonic series; as we move to higher partials, the intervals become smaller, and dissonance increases.

I'm not entirely sure if there's something to be convinced about really.. To my mind, there's a subjective notion about what dissonance is, and there's also a physiological explanation based on how our ears are 'constructed' (basilar membrane etc). Regarding the former, it can vary wildly from one person to another, from an epoch to another, even in the same person at two different times.

I read somewhere that the history of western classical music throughout the centuries can be seen as a gradual acceptance of music intervals that were previously seen as dissonant; Mark Levine echoes that same statement here (this is from "The Jazz Theory Book"):

[brian trageskin]

14 hours ago, brian trageskin said:

btw i forgot to mention this concept which is that chords with similar functions (because they're a major or minor 3rd apart, which means they share the same notes) can be used as substitutes for one another.

my definition suggests that any chord that's a minor or major 3rd above or below another chord shares the same notes as this chord, and can be used as a substitute, which is completely untrue. for example, the Cmaj chord is a major 3rd above G#m and they have zero note in common.

what i actually meant is that any major chord can be substituted for the minor chord that's a major 3rd above it, or the minor chord that's a minor 3rd below (the Cmaj chord can be substituted for either Em or Am), just like any minor chord can be substituted for the major chord a minor 3rd above it, or the major chord a major 3rd below it (Am substituted for either Cmaj or Fmaj). which isn't true, since it all depends on the chord's function.

for example, in the key of C major, if you substitute the IV chord (Fmaj) for the ii chord (Dm), it's all good because they both have the subdominant function. if you substitute the IV chord for the vi chord though (Am), you lose the subdominant function in the process, because the vi chord is a substitute for the tonic. so yeah, it's a bit more complicated and nuanced than simply using chords that share the same notes.

Edited January 30, 2022 by brian trageskin

[brian trageskin]

34 minutes ago, brian trageskin said:

just like any minor chord can be substituted for the major chord a minor 3rd above it, or the major chord a major 3rd below it (Am substituted for either Cmaj or Fmaj). which isn't true, since it all depends on the chord's function.

in the case of minor chords this doesn't even work, whatever the function of that chord. to be honest, i didn't ever know the harmonic functions in minor keys until now (i just googled it). 

i need to study this shit. it's one thing to hear of a concept, it's another thing to study the shit and understand how it really works. so yeah, i wasn't being modest when i said i don't know much theory, i really dont. 

Edited January 30, 2022 by brian trageskin

[iococoi]

muah

muah II

[Zephyr_Nova]

@brian trageskin transcribe this one:

Whole lotta cool cluster chords going on.

[brian trageskin]

37 minutes ago, Zephyr_Nova said:

@brian trageskin transcribe this one:

Whole lotta cool cluster chords going on.

don't tempt me frodo

[vkxwz]

On 1/31/2022 at 1:07 AM, IOS said:

Consider the intervals not as they are laid out on a piano, but as they appear in the harmonic series; as we move to higher partials, the intervals become smaller, and dissonance increases.

I'm not entirely sure if there's something to be convinced about really.. To my mind, there's a subjective notion about what dissonance is, and there's also a physiological explanation based on how our ears are 'constructed' (basilar membrane etc). Regarding the former, it can vary wildly from one person to another, from an epoch to another, even in the same person at two different times.

I read somewhere that the history of western classical music throughout the centuries can be seen as a gradual acceptance of music intervals that were previously seen as dissonant; Mark Levine echoes that same statement here (this is from "The Jazz Theory Book"):

True about the harmonic series if you are only looking at intervals between adjacent notes as you go up but once you step outside it or consider intervals between notes that arent next to each other in the series then that rule doesnt work as consistently at all.

Maybe its just too idealistic of an idea that there would be a mathematical / physics based explanation that does perfectly predict how dissonant intervals are.

What you mentioned about acceptance of intervals that were previous seen as more dissonant brings up a larger issue i think, about how much of our perception of music is built on associations made in our minds and how much is more universal. For example do some melodies sound sad because of similarity to the tones you hear when someone is talking while sad? Or is there some fundamental part of the structure that triggers those emotions reliably regardless of a minds prior experience, the later seems unlikely

[IOS]

9 minutes ago, vkxwz said:

What you mentioned about acceptance of intervals that were previous seen as more dissonant brings up a larger issue i think, about how much of our perception of music is built on associations made in our minds and how much is more universal. For example do some melodies sound sad because of similarity to the tones you hear when someone is talking while sad? Or is there some fundamental part of the structure that triggers those emotions reliably regardless of a minds prior experience, the later seems unlikely

Emotional responses to pleasant and unpleasant music correlate with activity in paralimbic brain regions

Universal Recognition of Three Basic Emotions in Music

These might be relevant. There's plenty of other studies.

(I'm trying to forget Music Perception & Cognition bro lol. The examinable material for that module was 99 papers)

[IOS]

 

18 minutes ago, IOS said:

Universal Recognition of Three Basic Emotions in Music

[brian trageskin]

[iococoi]

ntrstng

https://louisbigo.com/hexachord

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonnetz

[Zephyr_Nova]

@brian trageskinI expect a full transcription of this material on my desk by Monday:

There is harmony in there, btw, so is completely on topic.

[brian trageskin]

lol yeah i saw this vid. no thanks. 

On 1/31/2022 at 10:10 PM, Zephyr_Nova said:

@brian trageskin transcribe this one:

Whole lotta cool cluster chords going on.

i learned how to play the song on the keyboard btw, in fact i did so right after you posted it. then i started breaking down the harmony, it's pretty straightforward stuff aside from the odd modulation or chord function but anyway, i got lazy at some point and quit. i could get back to it if you're really interested, though i guess this was just you trolling me for a bit of fun, lol. anyway it's a pretty cool song , i like playing it. 

btw dude, fav major voicing? i'm still waiting. 

[chim]

@brian trageskin

Root-third substitions in chord progressions are pretty common, especially in jazz but you hear it in pop as well. It's always root minor - major third as well as root major - minor third, unless you're going for something Boccy or grandiose major pop thing. Is that what you were going for? 

Edited May 20, 2022 by chim

[brian trageskin]

3 hours ago, chim said:

@brian trageskin

Root-third substitions in chord progressions are pretty common, especially in jazz but you hear it in pop as well. It's always root minor - major third as well as root major - minor third, unless you're going for something Boccy or grandiose major pop thing. Is that what you were going for? 

oh shit, i was writing a long-ass response when i realized you weren't talking about the toro y moi song lmao. i'm dumb.   

yeah i know about that stuff. the concept i mentioned is interesting though, stacking thirds up or down a chord, regardless of its function. that doesn't mean that both chords necessarily share the same function, that depends on the function of the chord you picked. plus different schools of thought will disagree on which scale degrees share the same function. it's a cool thing to experiment with though (with other chords than the tonic). 

on that note, here's a quick random tip for beginners, to build major and minor extended chords ( in root position): 

pick any note. stack a minor 3rd on top. stack a major 3rd on top of that interval. stack a minor 3rd on top of that triad. stack a major 3rd on top. repeat until you get 7 notes. congrats, you just played an extended minor chord in root position. you don't have to play all 7 notes btw.

now pick any note. stack a major 3rd on top. stack a minor 3rd on top. stack a major 3rd on top, etc. extended major chord, yay! 

now here's how that relates to what i was talking about: play the extended minor chord you just learned. now remove the bottom note (the root), and stack a minor 3rd or major 3rd on top of your chord, depending on how many notes you chose to play - if the top interval was a major 3rd, play the minor 3rd above that and vice versa. do the same in the opposite direction: remove the top note, play the major 3rd below the bottom note if it's a minor chord or the minor 3rd below if it's a major chord. repeat the operation as many times as you like - remove the bottom note, play the 3rd above the top note, now remove the bottom note, play the 3rd above, etc. - or in the opposite direction. yay. you now sound like a beginner (root position chords are boring) but at least you now how to build a basic extended chord without knowing anything about scales. that'll be €20. come back next week.

Edited May 20, 2022 by brian trageskin

[brian trageskin]

edit: you now know how to build a basic extended chord.

[iococoi]

39 minutes ago, brian trageskin said:

oh shit, i was writing a long-ass response when i realized you weren't talking about the toro y moi song lmao. i'm dumb.   

yeah i know about that stuff. the concept i mentioned is interesting though, stacking thirds up or down a chord, regardless of its function. that doesn't mean that both chords necessarily share the same function, that depends on the function of the chord you picked. plus different schools of thought will disagree on which scale degrees share the same function. it's a cool thing to experiment with though (with other chords than the tonic). 

on that note, here's a quick random tip for beginners, to build major and minor extended chords ( in root position): 

pick any note. stack a minor 3rd on top. stack a major 3rd on top of that interval. stack a minor 3rd on top of that triad. stack a major 3rd on top. repeat until you get 7 notes. congrats, you just played an extended minor chord in root position. you don't have to play all 7 notes btw.

now pick any note. stack a major 3rd on top. stack a minor 3rd on top. stack a major 3rd on top, etc. extended major chord, yay! 

now here's how that relates to what i was talking about: play the extended minor chord you just learned. now remove the bottom note (the root), and stack a minor 3rd or major 3rd on top of your chord, depending on how many notes you chose to play - if the top interval was a major 3rd, play the minor 3rd above that and vice versa. do the same in the opposite direction: remove the top note, play the major 3rd below the bottom note if it's a minor chord or the minor 3rd below if it's a major chord. repeat the operation as many times as you like - remove the bottom note, play the 3rd above the top note, now remove the bottom note, play the 3rd above, etc. - or in the opposite direction. yay. you now sound like a beginner (root position chords are boring) but at least you now how to build a basic extended chord without knowing anything about scales. that'll be €20. come back next week.

[marf]

Ive played around with theory. Its nice to know some things for chords, but unless you know it front to back / inside out. Even be able to read music, You are bound to get something wrong and then the point is lost.

So I just use my ears. 

[brian trageskin]

3 hours ago, marf said:

Ive played around with theory. Its nice to know some things for chords, but unless you know it front to back / inside out. Even be able to read music, You are bound to get something wrong and then the point is lost.

So I just use my ears. 

i certainly agree that mastering the basics is key (pun intended) - i should know, i have many gaps in my knowledge of basic theoy that keep me from progressing. but even with those gaps, a sketchy understanding of theory is still preferable to zero understanding in my book. i'd rather have a tool than no tool at all, even if i don't know how to use it properly. sure, i'd be better off learning how to use the tool properly, but i'm already happy with what i'm able to do with my sketchy knowledge. very happy. which is the most important thing.

[Zephyr_Nova]

On 5/20/2022 at 12:51 AM, brian trageskin said:

i learned how to play the song on the keyboard btw, in fact i did so right after you posted it. then i started breaking down the harmony, it's pretty straightforward stuff aside from the odd modulation or chord function but anyway, i got lazy at some point and quit. i could get back to it if you're really interested

Haha that's awesome!  I am interested in you finishing what you started.  You should post a vid of yourself playing the song after.

One day I will get to that maj chord thing.  It'll be when you least expect it.  Like... you'll wake up one day, and my favourite chord will be there, standing over you.

[vkxwz]

21 minutes ago, Zephyr_Nova said:

Haha that's awesome!  I am interested in you finishing what you started.  You should post a vid of yourself playing the song after.

One day I will get to that maj chord thing.  It'll be when you least expect it.  Like... you'll wake up one day, and my favourite chord will be there, standing over you.

This sounds like a threat

[brian trageskin]

1 hour ago, Zephyr_Nova said:

Haha that's awesome!  I am interested in you finishing what you started.  

i will if the neighbours stop being so noisy, i can't focus on anything when there's too much noise around me.

btw i don't know why i mentioned "the odd modulation" in the tune like it's something challenging, cause it's really not. the only modulation in the tune is a section in Db major, so basically Bb minor (the home key) moving to its relative major. no key signature change. super basic stuff. this is exactly what chim was talking about earlier btw, tonic chords moving to their relative major or minor. some schools of thought disagree that you can substitute both chords in minor keys, they say that the relative major has the subdominant function, but most people say they both have the tonic function. truly fascinating, i know. 

1 hour ago, Zephyr_Nova said:

You should post a vid of yourself playing the song after.

hell no. it's not like i've learned how to play the chords and the melody simultaneously, i just play the chords and the bassline and it sounds very boring. 

1 hour ago, Zephyr_Nova said:

One day I will get to that maj chord thing.  It'll be when you least expect it.  Like... you'll wake up one day, and my favourite chord will be there, standing over you.

it would be hilarious if after all this time, you told me your fav major voicing is C E G.

Edited May 21, 2022 by brian trageskin

[brian trageskin]

super cool video in which 12tone lists and labels every possible relationship between 2 triads - major and minor only - regardless of tonal function.

mediants are mentioned btw, i.e. the chord relationships chim and i have been talking about.

Edited May 22, 2022 by brian trageskin

[brian trageskin]

edit: in which 12tone lists and names every possible relationship. to label doesn't mean what i thought it meant. i'm just being anal, i know. no one cares.