Russia is now bombing Ukraine

[ignatius]

2 hours ago, psn said:

Poor sods are ignorant as no tomorrow.

a lot of people in russia only found out about chernobyl when the series came out. and then russia decided to make its own "patriotic retelling"

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/07/chernobyl-hbo-russian-tv-remake

https://www.hbo.com/chernobyl

also, radioactive dust!

https://news.yahoo.com/unprotected-russian-soldiers-disturbed-radioactive-165419388.html

[jaderpansen]

21 hours ago, zkom said:

Kadyrov really is like some Sacha Baron Cohen character

Absolutely.

Just recently saw a documentary about kids growing up in Dagestan and Chechnya, whose best chance in life is making a career in MMA, for which there are even special martial arts highschools with ultra strict schedules, like first training starts before even breakfast, when it's time for math and language classes kids fall asleep at their desks etc. ...

Anyway as you might guess popularity of said sports is extremely high and of course one of Kadyrov's six sons, then 13 years old, partook in some kind of big boxing tournament. The other kid didn't dare to throw even a single punch, just standing in place in a defensive stance, randomly getting counted out for a technical KO eventually, with the crowd going all apeshit.

A bizarre spectacle indeed.

[chenGOD]

Sorry my fellow Canadians looks like we're next on Putin's shitlist:

https://www.vice.com/en/article/g5qn74/home-linked-to-international-neo-nazi-propagandist-raided-by-police-sources

Quote

Home Linked to International Neo-Nazi Propagandist Raided By Police: Sources

 

The home linked to “Dark Foreigner,” a neo-Nazi artist revealed by VICE News to be an Ottawa-area graphic designer, was the site of a significant police action Wednesday, according to sources.

 

[zkom]

The India Today ground reporting from Ukraine is absolutely nuts, holy shit

 

[Enthusiast]

1 hour ago, zkom said:

The India Today ground reporting from Ukraine is absolutely nuts, holy shit

 

[chenGOD]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dereksaul/2022/03/31/russia-demands-wikipedia-take-down-information-about-ukraine-war/?sh=57c15c2366f2

There’s an alanis morisette line in there somewhere… 

[usagi]

a reminder: the Ukrainian-originated report of Russian soldiers giving themselves radiation poisoning in/around Chernobyl is as yet unverified. it has been confirmed though that the Russians are withdrawing from the area and the IAEA is going in to assess. tweets are not reliable for anything and I think they should not be reposted anywhere.

(would be pretty funny though)

[ignatius]

57 minutes ago, usagi said:

a reminder: the Ukrainian-originated report of Russian soldiers giving themselves radiation poisoning in/around Chernobyl is as yet unverified. it has been confirmed though that the Russians are withdrawing from the area and the IAEA is going in to assess. tweets are not reliable for anything and I think they should not be reposted anywhere.

(would be pretty funny though)

i've seen a few stories reported by various news agencies but the source is i think all the same.. ukraine's state nuclear agency. 

but this.. was from the operator of the chenobyl reactor. only the first couple paragraphs are relevant. just to clarify the operator is the state so there's no real difference but the one guy is quoted.. 

https://www.silive.com/news/2022/03/russian-forces-leaving-chernobyl-after-soldiers-dug-trenches-and-got-significant-radiation-exposure.html

radiation levels did spike at different times apparently from disturbed soil around the containment zone. so, seems possible some people got some radiation but we'll probably not know for sure... i guess the iaea will have a look when they can and see if there's trenches etc. 

Edited April 1, 2022 by ignatius

[Konakov]

Hey folks!
We just release a fundraising music compilation with Ukrainian electronic artists.
Take a listen and support us, please <3

Together we will stop the evil, 
Bodya Konakov from ШЩЦ

 

[usagi]

2 hours ago, ignatius said:

i've seen a few stories reported by various news agencies but the source is i think all the same.. ukraine's state nuclear agency. 

but this.. was from the operator of the chenobyl reactor. only the first couple paragraphs are relevant. just to clarify the operator is the state so there's no real difference but the one guy is quoted.. 

https://www.silive.com/news/2022/03/russian-forces-leaving-chernobyl-after-soldiers-dug-trenches-and-got-significant-radiation-exposure.html

radiation levels did spike at different times apparently from disturbed soil around the containment zone. so, seems possible some people got some radiation but we'll probably not know for sure... i guess the iaea will have a look when they can and see if there's trenches etc. 

yeah, there's no difference there. the "operator" of the Chernobyl reactor = Energoatom = the Ukrainian state nuclear power company. I see no sources for any of this at the moment that aren't based on Ukrainian reports. including the disturbed soil/radiation spike story that emerged in late Feb when the Russians first took over the place, which came from the Ukrainian state nuclear overseer. I'd like to hear what the IAEA says finally but yes, as far as Russian radiation casualties are concerned, they've fucked off now so we may never know (which lends a bit of credence to the idea that they did get poisoned).

this sort of grey discussion is a sticking point for me because when you have so much fake shit flying around in a war, you end up having to decide whether you're willing to let the truth be a casualty in favour of supporting "the good guys", or if you're going to stick to your guns and say the truth is paramount no matter what. as much as we would all like to indulge in the funny idea of a bunch of idiot invaders poisoning themselves and having to be carted off home, it's also possible - and it wouldn't be unusual, given what we've seen  already - that it's a fabrication designed to play on that indulgence. why? because it serves a purpose in one of the war's 'battlespaces', which is in people's minds. e.g. a widespread perception of Russian incompetency/failure can serve to further demoralise Russian troops

I always want more corroboration. I'm constantly begging people to be far more circumspect and demanding of their media sources and consumption habits. social media has completely rotted most people's mental capacity for handling ambiguity.

Edited April 1, 2022 by usagi

[psn]

43 minutes ago, usagi said:

I'm constantly begging people to be far more circumspect and demanding of their media sources and consumption habits. 

+1

[zkom]

Here's the Reuters piece from 3 days ago about Russian troops driving through the highly contaminated "Red Forest" in Chernobyl without any radiation protection https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/unprotected-russian-soldiers-disturbed-radioactive-dust-chernobyls-red-forest-2022-03-28/

Quote

Valery Seida, acting general director of the Chernobyl plant, was not there at the time and did not witness the Russian convoy going into the Red Forest, but he said he was told by witnesses that Russian military vehicles drove everywhere around the exclusion zone and could have passed the Red Forest.

"Nobody goes there ... for God's sake. There is no one there," Seida told Reuters.

He said workers at the plant told the Russian service personnel they should be cautious about radiation, but he knew of no evidence that they paid attention.

"They drove wherever they needed to," Seida said.

I am no radiation expert, but what I've read the radiation in the soil and plants is not that dangerous if it stays outside for short periods of time, but if the soldiers inhaled the radioactive dust then it gets into their lungs and stays there and can cause serious problems because then they are basically just irradiating themselves from the inside.

[chenGOD]

https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/short_news/finnish-president-says-nato-referendum-no-longer-necessary/

Any Finns in here care to corroborate?

[zkom]

4 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/short_news/finnish-president-says-nato-referendum-no-longer-necessary/

Any Finns in here care to corroborate?

Well, some of the politicians here don't want to do a public referendum also because the referendums can be easily manipulated by disinformation campaigns and there have been negative experiences in other countries in recent years on letting referendums make decisions on foreign policies, if you know what I mean..

One thing is  also how other NATO members will react because the membership needs to be approved by all the NATO members. And Orbán being such a good pal with Putin the question is will Hungary approve? Hungarians have their parliamentary elections next Sunday so there's an extra bit of excitement..

Other thing is timing. The Finnish president for example is saying that it's not wise to apply for the membership while the war is going in Ukraine because while Finland is probably not in danger it may escalate the situation between Ukraine and Russia. 

[chenGOD]

32 minutes ago, zkom said:

Well, some of the politicians here don't want to do a public referendum also because the referendums can be easily manipulated by disinformation campaigns and there have been negative experiences in other countries in recent years on letting referendums make decisions on foreign policies, if you know what I mean..

One thing is  also how other NATO members will react because the membership needs to be approved by all the NATO members. And Orbán being such a good pal with Putin the question is will Hungary approve? Hungarians have their parliamentary elections next Sunday so there's an extra bit of excitement..

Other thing is timing. The Finnish president for example is saying that it's not wise to apply for the membership while the war is going in Ukraine because while Finland is probably not in danger it may escalate the situation between Ukraine and Russia. 

Thanks for that - I just find it fascinating that Putin's actions have essentially done the opposite of what Russia would have considered successful foreign policy. Increased appetite for joining NATO from countries that were pretty leery before, increased defense spending from Germany, increased economic pressure through sanctions etc.

All these things going wrong, and the Russians can't rid themselves of Putin and his ilk.

[ghsotword]

1 hour ago, chenGOD said:

Thanks for that - I just find it fascinating that Putin's actions have essentially done the opposite of what Russia would have considered successful foreign policy. Increased appetite for joining NATO from countries that were pretty leery before, increased defense spending from Germany, increased economic pressure through sanctions etc.

Yes. Also, Putin's grand plan was to unite Russians and Ukrainians as one nation. Now Putin's actions have made Ukrainians even more opposed to this than before

[ignatius]

7 hours ago, usagi said:

I always want more corroboration. I'm constantly begging people to be far more circumspect and demanding of their media sources and consumption habits. social media has completely rotted most people's mental capacity for handling ambiguity.

yeah.. definitely.. i'd also say the proliferation of super biased media sources that have an agenda/political stance have really helped social media shit the bed on all this. social media is the amplifier for the talking head entertainers who spew total bullshit all day long. 

[cichlisuite]

2 hours ago, zkom said:

Here's the Reuters piece from 3 days ago about Russian troops driving through the highly contaminated "Red Forest" in Chernobyl without any radiation protection https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/unprotected-russian-soldiers-disturbed-radioactive-dust-chernobyls-red-forest-2022-03-28/

I am no radiation expert, but what I've read the radiation in the soil and plants is not that dangerous if it stays outside for short periods of time, but if the soldiers inhaled the radioactive dust then it gets into their lungs and stays there and can cause serious problems because then they are basically just irradiating themselves from the inside.

A couple of years ago I entertained the idea of going to Chernobyl exclusion zone as a tourist so I did some research on that as a preparation. Eventually, covid struck, and I also more or less came to my senses about the whole thing.

A few people still live inside the zone, not many, but some still do, and they are ok because they do not receive dangerous doses (the more dangerous doses they receive are in forms of vodka, though). The radioactive dust is constantly swept across the landscape, but is kept checked by weather, and gets concentrated in more dense parts, particularly the urbanized and densely forested parts. Iron and concrete (derelict buildings) contain pockets of higher dosages, but apart from a few very dangerous parts, only prolonged exposure can bring dangerous effects. The most dangerous parts are where metal structures are concentrated, abandoned vehicle parks and manufacture or high-rise buildings. Those are all prohibited from visiting, and are mostly cordoned off. You need to get permissions from authorities to visit the exclusion zone and you cannot go without a guide and a geiger counter, which should be monitored constantly. So the the whole zone is still dangerous, and, as you said, the most dangerous is the radioactive dust that rises from dry ground (dry summers) or debris. Also, touching stuff and equipment left there disturb the finely settled dust on it and inhaling that is easy and very dangerous, as the radioactive dust settles deep in your lungs and stays there.

I imagine that military vehicles (heavy trucks, APCs, tanks) moving through those parts raise a lot of dust. Also, the military usually uses the surrounding material to construct defenses and positions. Using timber for camouflage, and even minor earth works can therefore disturb the settled radioactive material. Using high-rise buildings for military observation and shelter could also lead to high exposure. Military also tries to live off the land as much as possible to offset the logistical issues. So if the soldiers used local wells for water supply, wildlife and especially mushrooms, no doubt some could have received dangerous doses.

[Amen Warrior]

4 hours ago, chenGOD said:

Thanks for that - I just find it fascinating that Putin's actions have essentially done the opposite of what Russia would have considered successful foreign policy. Increased appetite for joining NATO from countries that were pretty leery before, increased defense spending from Germany, increased economic pressure through sanctions etc.

All these things going wrong, and the Russians can't rid themselves of Putin and his ilk.

I imagine it has a fair bit to do with internal power structures in Russia. Botched foreign policy may be the play if it allows him to strengthen or consolidate power at home.

There's a whole generation of young russian adults that have only known Putin as their leader, who will be eligible to "vote" for the first time in 2024. Dangerous territory for an autocrat

[usagi]

11 hours ago, zkom said:

Here's the Reuters piece from 3 days ago about Russian troops driving through the highly contaminated "Red Forest" in Chernobyl without any radiation protection https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/unprotected-russian-soldiers-disturbed-radioactive-dust-chernobyls-red-forest-2022-03-28/

I am no radiation expert, but what I've read the radiation in the soil and plants is not that dangerous if it stays outside for short periods of time, but if the soldiers inhaled the radioactive dust then it gets into their lungs and stays there and can cause serious problems because then they are basically just irradiating themselves from the inside.

this article is recent but it's rehashing the same story from late Feb when the Russians first took over the area. the dates referenced in it are 24/25 Feb, and it goes on to say no new data has been received by the IAEA from 9 Mar so they could not independently verify the Ukrainians' assertions. as well as saying that Reuters have not been able to verify anything themselves either. I don't know why they saw fit to rehash this now without any new information, it reads like they spoke to some of the workers more recently but nothing new came to light.

[usagi]

I normally put no stock in opinion pieces but this one (NYT) is worth reading re the refugee crisis which has scaled up very fast.

Quote

To put it in perspective, close to one million Syrians, Afghans and Iraqis crossed the Mediterranean Sea to seek refuge in Europe in one year, 2015. Since the Russian invasion of Ukraine began on Feb. 24, nearly one million people have left Ukraine every week. Barring a peace agreement, Russia will keep bombarding civilian infrastructure. Ukraine will keep fighting for its survival. Ten million people — roughly a quarter of the population of Ukraine — could end up leaving the country in the coming months.

in full:

Spoiler

Putin Knows What He’s Doing With Ukraine’s Refugees. This Is the World’s Big Test.
April 1, 2022

By The Editorial Board

The editorial board is a group of opinion journalists whose views are informed by expertise, research, debate and certain longstanding values. It is separate from the newsroom.

The mass flight of refugees from Ukraine has created a humanitarian crisis that dwarfs anything Europe has seen since World War II. More than four million people have poured into neighboring countries, and as long as Russia’s savage war continues, millions more will flee. Already, the flow of refugees from Ukraine is far greater than the number from Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq who fled to Europe in 2015, upending European politics.

Europe’s initial reaction to the flight from Ukraine has been an impressive show of solidarity, given how suddenly the crisis exploded. Refugees, most of whom are women and children, because most men are required to stay behind in Ukraine to fight, have been welcomed and housed even as their numbers swell.

But the scale of this crisis is staggering, and it is still in its early stages. Coping with it will demand more coordination, imagination, funds and determination both within Europe and by the United States and allies elsewhere. Existing refugee centers should receive far more assistance, and ways need to be found to encourage refugees to move on to countries that have more capacity to host them. Preparations should also be made now to help Ukrainians return home, should a lasting peace eventually take hold.

Opening the doors wide to European refugees raises an inevitable comparison to the treatment of refugees from Syria, Afghanistan and other countries. About 16,000 people remain in refugee camps in Greece, and many of them are going hungry because they lack the same rights that are being guaranteed to Ukrainians. But the answer to a double standard cannot be to close the doors to Ukrainians.

To put it in perspective, close to one million Syrians, Afghans and Iraqis crossed the Mediterranean Sea to seek refuge in Europe in one year, 2015. Since the Russian invasion of Ukraine began on Feb. 24, nearly one million people have left Ukraine every week. Barring a peace agreement, Russia will keep bombarding civilian infrastructure. Ukraine will keep fighting for its survival. Ten million people — roughly a quarter of the population of Ukraine — could end up leaving the country in the coming months.

Cities in Poland, Moldova and Romania have been transformed, putting pressure on schools, housing, hospitals and government assistance programs. Warsaw, a city of about 1.6 million people, is now hosting more than 300,000 Ukrainian refugees, many of whom are sleeping in hastily set up welcome centers. Overcrowded shelters for women and children are targets for human trafficking and criminal exploitation.

Refugees are not a design flaw of Vladimir Putin’s war in Ukraine. Indiscriminate bombing and shelling of civilian infrastructure is part of a broader strategy to demoralize the civilian population and drive residents into neighboring countries, where their presence can be destabilizing. This became clear during last year’s episode on the Belarus-Poland border, after Aleksandr Lukashenko, the autocratic ruler of Belarus, apparently manufactured a crisis by encouraging migrants to cross into Poland.

Over time, resentment of Ukrainian refugees may grow. People who started off welcoming the refugees could turn against them, putting pressure on their governments to force Ukraine to end the war on Russia’s terms. Easing this pressure, by supporting the countries that are hosting refugees, makes this tactic of trying to weaponize refugees less effective.

The Council of the European Union has already taken an important step by passing a directive that grants temporary protected status to Ukrainian nationals and certain legal permanent residents of Ukraine for up to one year. Most Ukrainians already had the right to travel without visas to European Union countries for 90 days. The new measure gives them the right to live, work and attend school in E.U. countries without having to go through the official process of seeking asylum.

But far more needs to be done to assist the places where refugees are clustered, and to help refugees find their way out of overcrowded welcome centers. Britain’s “Homes for Ukraine” program, which pays families and organizations to take in refugees, has resulted in the issuing of 2,700 visas so far, while Finland has offered spots in universities to 2,000 Ukrainians.

These ad hoc efforts are important but insufficient given the millions of people who are affected. The European Union has established a platform to match offers of help with those in need. Seven countries, including Norway, Liechtenstein and Switzerland, have pledged to take in some 15,000 of the Ukrainians now in Moldova. But that’s a small fraction of the estimated 98,000 Ukrainians in Moldova, many of whom are reluctant to leave because a language they know, Russian, is spoken there.

The European Union has also identified roughly 17 billion euros in funds for pandemic recovery and programs to promote social and economic cohesion that could be immediately spent on urgent needs, including housing, education, health care and child care. An E.U. proposal to address the current crisis would distribute more of those funds to countries hosting large numbers of refugees. Hungary, Poland, Romania and Slovakia would receive 45 percent more funding than they would have gotten. Austria, Bulgaria, the Czech Republic and Estonia — member states that have received the highest number of Ukrainians in proportion to their national populations — would get that increase as well.

Efforts to humanely accommodate those displaced by the war need not be confined to Europe. Canada, which is home to a large Ukrainian population, has agreed to welcome an unlimited number of people fleeing the war to stay for at least two years. Even Japan, which has long been reluctant to take in refugees, has agreed to accept Ukrainians.

President Biden’s announcement that the United States would accept up to 100,000 is a good start, but the country can do more, especially when public support for welcoming Ukrainian refugees is strong. The United States has been a key player in Ukraine over the years, from encouraging Ukrainians to stand up to Russia to persuading Ukrainians to agree to the removal of nuclear weapons from their territory following the collapse of the Soviet Union, a decision that many Ukrainians deeply regret today.

As the world enters a period of greater instability, its leaders can no longer ignore the need for a coordinated and humane response to all of those fleeing war and other desperate circumstances.

this at least acknowledges the refugee double standard but falls short of saying what could be done to combat it. it's not rocket science... try treating people equally? you know, in accordance with those enlightened western values. after all the political drama in 2015 (which fed rightwing freakshows across Europe for years after) and the moaning about costs, it turns out it's not really that hard to rapidly throw out a range of measures for refugees including protected legal status, accommodation, billions of dollars in funding, even university placements. if they look right.

I'm sick of hearing shit like "they're like us, they're just next door" etc which people are using as justification with complete barefacedness. it's a simple matter of principle to grant civilians fleeing from war refuge regardless of where they're coming from or what they believe. either acknowledge a lack of this principle and cease pretending to be a beacon of civilisation, or... do the right fucking thing.

Edited April 2, 2022 by usagi

[Rubin Farr]

17 hours ago, cichlisuite said:

A couple of years ago I entertained the idea of going to Chernobyl exclusion zone as a tourist so I did some research on that as a preparation. Eventually, covid struck, and I also more or less came to my senses about the whole thing.

A few people still live inside the zone, not many, but some still do, and they are ok because they do not receive dangerous doses (the more dangerous doses they receive are in forms of vodka, though). The radioactive dust is constantly swept across the landscape, but is kept checked by weather, and gets concentrated in more dense parts, particularly the urbanized and densely forested parts. Iron and concrete (derelict buildings) contain pockets of higher dosages, but apart from a few very dangerous parts, only prolonged exposure can bring dangerous effects. The most dangerous parts are where metal structures are concentrated, abandoned vehicle parks and manufacture or high-rise buildings. Those are all prohibited from visiting, and are mostly cordoned off. You need to get permissions from authorities to visit the exclusion zone and you cannot go without a guide and a geiger counter, which should be monitored constantly. So the the whole zone is still dangerous, and, as you said, the most dangerous is the radioactive dust that rises from dry ground (dry summers) or debris. Also, touching stuff and equipment left there disturb the finely settled dust on it and inhaling that is easy and very dangerous, as the radioactive dust settles deep in your lungs and stays there.

I imagine that military vehicles (heavy trucks, APCs, tanks) moving through those parts raise a lot of dust. Also, the military usually uses the surrounding material to construct defenses and positions. Using timber for camouflage, and even minor earth works can therefore disturb the settled radioactive material. Using high-rise buildings for military observation and shelter could also lead to high exposure. Military also tries to live off the land as much as possible to offset the logistical issues. So if the soldiers used local wells for water supply, wildlife and especially mushrooms, no doubt some could have received dangerous doses.

One Russian Solider has died from exposure reportedly 

[Richie Sombrero]

I've seen videos in twitter in passing of alleged Russian executions north of Kyiv of civilians.

I'm finding the constant flow of info and dis-info very difficult to parse and navigate. On the one hand, it could very well be propaganda but perhaps I just want to believe that to shield myself from the horrific truth. 

At face value, it looks correct and I have no doubt Russia is the aggressor and has committed atrocities. 

On 4/1/2022 at 9:26 AM, Konakov said:

Hey folks!
We just release a fundraising music compilation with Ukrainian electronic artists.
Take a listen and support us, please

Together we will stop the evil, 
Bodya Konakov from ШЩЦ

 

 

Kyiv summer tracks is one of my favourite releases from the last couple of years. Hope you're well man. I miss your beautiful city. I see 20ft Radio are doing a fundraiser and I've donated.

Give me a shout anytime. 

[zkom]

Some progress in the Finnish NATO membership discussion.

Finnish PM: Nato decision must happen this spring https://yle.fi/news/3-12388118

[usagi]

14 hours ago, Richie Sombrero said:

I've seen videos in twitter in passing of alleged Russian executions north of Kyiv of civilians.

I don't know about which twitter videos but I think much of this is real. consistent reports that they killed a lot of people in Bucha as they withdrew.