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Russia is now bombing Ukraine


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7 hours ago, zero said:

how the average non-english speaking Russian citizen responds is what we're waiting to find out here. how long will they continue to buy the BS propaganda from RT/channel 1 that this is all just a peacekeeping mission? they are the ones that the sanctions are going to do a number on. will it be enough to snap them out of the Putin love fest, and realize he's just the same ol same ol as the commie dudes from back in the USSR days? if the country slowly realizes what he's really up to, then I can't see him sticking around to explain his way out of this to them. he'll probably end up exiled in some golden mansion, that is if he can dodge a bullet coming from someone on his team. 

I dunno, there are probably more people in Russia who back Putin than you think, and it probably runs a lot along generation lines.  My friend who is from Belarus, he said that his dad is still very pro-Putin and even now denying that what's going on right now is an actual "war", or aggression from Russia.  He said it's because his dad grew up in the days when it was the "mighty" USSR, and he shares the desire to see those days again (maybe subconsciously or consciously, not sure), not only when the USSR was "stronger", but when they had strong leaders who would stand up to the rest of the world.  Kind of a messed up view, but I think it's completely understandable considering the circumstances.

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Some food for thought.

Hedges: Chronicle of a War Foretold – scheerpost.com

Quote

I was in Eastern Europe in 1989, reporting on the revolutions that overthrew the ossified communist dictatorships that led to the collapse of the Soviet Union. It was a time of hope. NATO, with the breakup of the Soviet empire, became obsolete. President Mikhail Gorbachev reached out to Washington and Europe to build a new security pact that would include Russia. Secretary of State James Baker in the Reagan administration, along with the West German Foreign Minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher, assured the Soviet leader that if Germany was unified NATO would not be extended beyond the new borders. The commitment not to expand NATO, also made by Great Britain and France, appeared to herald a new global order. We saw the peace dividend dangled before us, the promise that the massive expenditures on weapons that characterized the Cold War would be converted into expenditures on social programs and infrastructures that had long been neglected to feed the insatiable appetite of the military.

There was a near universal understanding among diplomats and political leaders at the time that any attempt to expand NATO was foolish, an unwarranted provocation against Russia that would obliterate the ties and bonds that happily emerged at the end of the Cold War.

How naive we were. The war industry did not intend to shrink its power or its profits. It set out almost immediately to recruit the former Communist Bloc countries into the European Union and NATO. Countries that joined NATO, which now include Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Albania, Croatia, Montenegro, and North Macedonia were forced to reconfigure their militaries, often through hefty loans, to become compatible with NATO military hardware.

There would be no peace dividend. The expansion of NATO swiftly became a multi-billion-dollar bonanza for the corporations that had profited from the Cold War. (Poland, for example, just agreed to spend $ 6 billion on M1 Abrams tanks and other U.S. military equipment.) If Russia would not acquiesce to again being the enemy, then Russia would be pressured into becoming the enemy. And here we are. On the brink of another Cold War, one from which only the war industry will profit while, as W. H. Auden wrote, the little children die in the streets.

The consequences of pushing NATO up to the borders with Russia — there is now a NATO missile base in Poland 100 miles from the Russian border — were well known to policy makers. Yet they did it anyway. It made no geopolitical sense. But it made commercial sense. War, after all, is a business, a very lucrative one. It is why we spent two decades in Afghanistan although there was near universal consensus after a few years of fruitless fighting that we had waded into a quagmire we could never win.

In a classified diplomatic cable obtained and released by WikiLeaks dated February 1, 2008, written from Moscow, and addressed to the Joint Chiefs of Staff, NATO-European Union Cooperative, National Security Council, Russia Moscow Political Collective, Secretary of Defense, and Secretary of State, there was an unequivocal understanding that expanding NATO risked an eventual conflict with Russia, especially over Ukraine.

“Not only does Russia perceive encirclement [by NATO], and efforts to undermine Russia’s influence in the region, but it also fears unpredictable and uncontrolled consequences which would seriously affect Russian security interests,” the cable reads. “Experts tell us that Russia is particularly worried that the strong divisions in Ukraine over NATO membership, with much of the ethnic-Russian community against membership, could lead to a major split, involving violence or at worst, civil war. In that eventuality, Russia would have to decide whether to intervene; a decision Russia does not want to have to face. . . . Dmitri Trenin, Deputy Director of the Carnegie Moscow Center, expressed concern that Ukraine was, in the long-term, the most potentially destabilizing factor in U.S.-Russian relations, given the level of emotion and neuralgia triggered by its quest for NATO membership . . . Because membership remained divisive in Ukrainian domestic politics, it created an opening for Russian intervention. Trenin expressed concern that elements within the Russian establishment would be encouraged to meddle, stimulating U.S. overt encouragement of opposing political forces, and leaving the U.S. and Russia in a classic confrontational posture.”

The Obama administration, not wanting to further inflame tensions with Russia, blocked arms sales to Kiev. But this act of prudence was abandoned by the Trump and Biden administrations. Weapons from the U.S. and Great Britain are pouring into Ukraine, part of the $1.5 billion in promised military aid. The equipment includes hundreds of sophisticated Javelins and NLAW anti-tank weapons despite repeated protests by Moscow.

The United States and its NATO allies have no intention of sending troops to Ukraine. Rather, they will flood the country with weapons, which is what it did in the 2008 conflict between Russia and Georgia.

The conflict in Ukraine echoes the novel “Chronicle of a Death Foretold” by Gabriel Garcia Marquez. In the novel it is acknowledged by the narrator that “there had never been a death more foretold” and yet no one was able or willing to stop it. All of us who reported from Eastern Europe in 1989 knew the consequences of provoking Russia, and yet few have raised their voices to halt the madness. The methodical steps towards war took on a life of their own, moving us like sleepwalkers towards disaster.

Once NATO expanded into Eastern Europe, the Clinton administration promised Moscow that NATO combat troops would not be stationed in Eastern Europe, the defining issue of the 1997 NATO-Russia Founding Act on Mutual Relations. This promise again turned out to be a lie. Then in 2014 the U.S. backed a coup against the Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych who sought to build an economic alliance with Russia rather than the European Union. Of course, once integrated into the European Union, as seen in the rest of Eastern Europe, the next step is integration into NATO. Russia, spooked by the coup, alarmed at the overtures by the EU and NATO, then annexed Crimea, largely populated by Russian speakers. And the death spiral that led us to the conflict currently underway in Ukraine became unstoppable.

The war state needs enemies to sustain itself. When an enemy can’t be found, an enemy is manufactured. Putin has become, in the words of Senator Angus King, the new Hitler, out to grab Ukraine and the rest of Eastern Europe. The full-throated cries for war, echoed shamelessly by the press, are justified by draining the conflict of historical context, by elevating ourselves as the saviors and whoever we oppose, from Saddam Hussein to Putin, as the new Nazi leader.

I don’t know where this will end up. We must remember, as Putin reminded us, that Russia is a nuclear power. We must remember that once you open the Pandora’s box of war it unleashes dark and murderous forces no one can control. I know this from personal experience. The match has been lit. The tragedy is that there was never any dispute about how the conflagration would start.

Now it's been all but confirmed certain material being fed to us about this war has been embellished or has a false narrative: Attack on Snake Island - Wikipedia

Quote

On 24 February 2022, on the first day of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, two Russian naval warships, Vasily Bykov and Moskva, attacked Snake Island.[50] Later on the same day, following a second attack, the island was invaded and captured by Russian forces.[51] Thirteen Ukrainian border guards, representing the entirety of the Ukrainian military presence on the island, were allegedly[4] killed during the battle after refusing to surrender. One of the Ukrainian border guards told an officer onboard a Russian navy warship to "go fuck yourself" when asked to surrender.[52][53][54] The response gained worldwide attention and became a symbol of Ukrainian resistance.[55][56] President Volodymyr Zelensky posthumously awarded the Hero of Ukraine, Ukraine's highest award, to the 13 defenders.[55][56][57] Russian Authorities claimed that 87 soldiers had been captured on the island.[58] After the alleged incident had received widespread public attention, the Ukrainian Border Guard officially stated on February 26 that the thirteen personnel might be alive

This war is no good regardless of who's right or wrong. What's really dangerous here is how the world, for the majority, is backing Russia into a corner. Ukraine is perhaps being used as a proxy war for bigger players. 

BOC might have been right, albeit a bit off the mark: If you can be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you can be told what to say or think. 

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hello everybody , im from Ukraine. city in eastern part , under siege . feels surreal , really hard to miss things that you are used to when it's almost impossible to buy or get something , even if you have money. so what are people thinking about all this ? ww3 ?

my English is not perfect , I hope you understand what im talking about

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47 minutes ago, joshuatxuk said:

It never ceases to amaze me see a smattering of kids on IG who are literally non-ironic monarchists and anti-democratic traditionalists or on the other side unironic CCP simps and auth-left apologists. I think things will generally settle down and get better but it's going to be a long-ride in the meantime.

If they are kids, then this is just kids stuff, kid's fascination with historical or contemporary larger-than-life ideas they don't even fully grasp. When I was a kid, fascinated by history, I was easily drawn into the imagination of the mighty Roman empire or the ancient Egypt, I had a book about Carter's exploration of the Valley of the Kings and read it cover to cover several times, studied their pantheon, and even thought Ramesses II was the shit as the mightiest deity, and I imagined how his life would be. My friend at the time made himself an FBI ID (x-files effect) and unironically flash it around like he is an agent or something. Other kids got a moped and thought they were Mike Doohan or something... I mean there was so many things you could become fascinated by, but you grow out of it, puberty kicks in and then girls become the main thing. But that was a different time, I guess. I think it's a part of growing up, seeking own identity.

I'm no psychologist so I can't really make any conclusions out of this, but with this new internet echo chamber communities, I tend to think kids have a harder time growing out of it and maturing. Without parental supervision or self-reflection they become settled in and find answers to their angst in things they really should not. It can become some Lord of the Flies shit, just as a school playground would if it wasn't for the teacher's presence and supervision. I still think this is a relatively low percentage of kids - others still grow out of it by themselves. But because we're plugged in into this matrix all the time, it seems like it's always here and even growing.. idk. It's a well-known fact that new technology brings about societal phenomenons we cannot predict which amplify bad things exponentially for which we are not prepared. And as a crucial thing as supervision and education is for kids, with this in mind, I believe it is absolutely necessary to extend supervision and education into the realm of internet. Starting with parents, of course.

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1 hour ago, Ethel said:

Some food for thought.

Hedges: Chronicle of a War Foretold – scheerpost.com

Now it's been all but confirmed certain material being fed to us about this war has been embellished or has a false narrative: Attack on Snake Island - Wikipedia

This war is no good regardless of who's right or wrong. What's really dangerous here is how the world, for the majority, is backing Russia into a corner. Ukraine is perhaps being used as a proxy war for bigger players. 

BOC might have been right, albeit a bit off the mark: If you can be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you can be told what to say or think. 

this

 

 

 

Edited by Ayya Khema
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1 hour ago, Ethel said:

What's really dangerous here is how the world, for the majority, is backing Russia into a corner. Ukraine is perhaps being used as a proxy war for bigger players. 

Dude, 'backing Russia into a corner?'.. are you really playing the victim card for Putin? They invaded a sovereign nation - they started this war, and can turn around today and there would be no war. The only thing remotely positive about this whole affair is that the world is at least using some means to stand up to obvious belligerent agression.

Of course I wish the western nations actions didn't hurt average Russian citizens, ie those opposed to war. But I think it's much more important to stand up to their dickhead leader, who really has all the power here.

Edited by markedone
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1 hour ago, maxwellsq said:

hello everybody , im from Ukraine. city in eastern part , under siege . feels surreal , really hard to miss things that you are used to when it's almost impossible to buy or get something , even if you have money. so what are people thinking about all this ? ww3 ?

my English is not perfect , I hope you understand what im talking about

I've mostly been thinking about how sad it all is, all the lives that will be ruined and lost in this war. Very very sad times..

Of course I'm hoping it does not escalate into an even larger conflict. I really hope a negotiation leads to Russia backing off before it intensifies further because it is already a horrific and pointless war. Wishing you and your family safety.

Edited by markedone
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20 minutes ago, markedone said:

Dude, 'backing Russia into a corner?'.. are you really playing the victim card for Putin? They invaded a sovereign nation - they started this war, and can turn around today and there would be no war. The only thing remotely positive about this whole affair is that the world is at least using some means to stand up to obvious belligerent agression.

Of course I wish the western nations actions didn't hurt average Russian citizens, ie those opposed to war. But I think it's much more important to stand up to their dickhead leader, who really has all the power here.

 

youve been brainwashed

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Ayya Khema
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1 hour ago, maxwellsq said:

hello everybody , im from Ukraine. city in eastern part , under siege . feels surreal , really hard to miss things that you are used to when it's almost impossible to buy or get something , even if you have money. so what are people thinking about all this ? ww3 ?

my English is not perfect , I hope you understand what im talking about

tell us more. have you any access to food? 

Edited by Ayya Khema
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15 hours ago, Ayya Khema said:

youve been brainwashed

And imo you're crazy for defending an invasion, by agreeing with the narrative that Russia was somehow forced into doing it.

To respond to the part of your post you edited out, my use of 'they' in my previous post was very clearly referring to Putin vis a vis his government and military, not the average Russian.

Edited by markedone
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15 minutes ago, Nebraska said:

hey why is he only coming after us?

"let's just nuke them so they won't exist"....  except oh right.. they have nukes too. 

they'd be dead too because a nuclear strike wouldn't go unanswered. 

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Just now, brian trageskin said:

please elaborate

let's just skip all that and go straight to the conclusion:

 

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3 hours ago, Ayya Khema said:

tell us more. have you any access to food? 

I have some food left that I bought 4 days ago . almost all shops are closed . and those that are working have huge lines , really huge. everything is in shortage. we have airstrike alert every 3-4 hours . a lot of people sitting in subways , rest are at their homes , in the basements if they have one. what else ? we still have electricity internet water and gas . every day there is more bomb victims . a lot of people drove away to western borders , there are huuuuge lines at the border there. I don't want to leave so can't tell how hard it is to get there . also we have increasing looters, marauders activity. overall , very surreal , in a bad way

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also ,  it's starting to feel strange that usa who actively supported our confrontational relationship with russia, now acting like they don't want to touch this mess , even no moral support from them. I can be wrong though and there are things that we are not seeing

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22 minutes ago, maxwellsq said:

I have some food left that I bought 4 days ago . almost all shops are closed . and those that are working have huge lines , really huge. everything is in shortage. we have airstrike alert every 3-4 hours . a lot of people sitting in subways , rest are at their homes , in the basements if they have one. what else ? we still have electricity internet water and gas . every day there is more bomb victims . a lot of people drove away to western borders , there are huuuuge lines at the border there. I don't want to leave so can't tell how hard it is to get there . also we have increasing looters, marauders activity. overall , very surreal , in a bad way

 

14 minutes ago, maxwellsq said:

also ,  it's starting to feel strange that usa who actively supported our confrontational relationship with russia, now acting like they don't want to touch this mess , even no moral support from them. I can be wrong though and there are things that we are not seeing

wow. don't know what to say. sounds beyond stressful. you do have lot's of support over here. many cities have had some gatherings/protests etc in support of ukraine. they had to arrest someone at the russian embassy in usa for vandalism or throwing something. ukraine is the lead story on the news every day. it's all the politicians and news people are talking about. of course part of that is trying to score points on the other party and point blame etc. that part of things is a shit show.. but there's a lot of support. russians are protesting too in moscow and other cities even though they're getting arrested. 

as for directly from USA. they're sending aid and arms and working with other countries to get those things into ukraine. it's a logistical problem of course but they're figuring it out. i saw where Elon musk sent starlink equipment so the internet can be accessed if the current internet goes down. somehow they got that in on a truck. so i assume that will continue and be developed. i think USA approved $350million more in aid. probably not the last. 

regardless, much, if not all, of the world is watching and doing what it can w/o triggering putin to go nuclear. 

it's early days but we'll see how it goes in the coming days and weeks. some military analysts/former intelligence people saying this is only the beginning.  

anyway.. my thoughts are with you and it's hard to think about anything else. 

Edited by ignatius
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36 minutes ago, maxwellsq said:

also ,  it's starting to feel strange that usa who actively supported our confrontational relationship with russia, now acting like they don't want to touch this mess , even no moral support from them. I can be wrong though and there are things that we are not seeing

I think the USA/Biden would have probably contributed more direct military assistance if it wouldn’t be interpreted by Putin (right or wrong) as an act of aggression. Putin is falsely blaming Ukraine and anyone that supports them for his actions and sadly my guess is that Biden may have reason to suspect that any direct show of force would result in an actual WW3 situation. It’s a mess. 
I can’t imagine what you or your friends and family are experiencing right now. I have a Ukrainian flag in my window. I really wish I could do more. 
Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us ❤️

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1 hour ago, maxwellsq said:

I have some food left that I bought 4 days ago . almost all shops are closed . and those that are working have huge lines , really huge. everything is in shortage. we have airstrike alert every 3-4 hours . a lot of people sitting in subways , rest are at their homes , in the basements if they have one. what else ? we still have electricity internet water and gas . every day there is more bomb victims . a lot of people drove away to western borders , there are huuuuge lines at the border there. I don't want to leave so can't tell how hard it is to get there . also we have increasing looters, marauders activity. overall , very surreal , in a bad way

I wish you all the best. 

And I know it's not my place to comment on this, but please consider getting out of Ukraine. Unless you want to join the fight. If you don't though, I don't think staying will do you any good. (Again, not my place to comment. But this is a life/death thing, so I'm afraid I can't bother with being nice and friendly. You have to think about your own safety and those around you. And it's simply not a safe place to be right now)

On a sidenote, here's an interesting video (hopefully not already posted - havent kept up)

 

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58 minutes ago, J3FF3R00 said:

I think the USA/Biden would have probably contributed more direct military assistance if it wouldn’t be interpreted by Putin (right or wrong) as an act of aggression. Putin is falsely blaming Ukraine and anyone that supports them for his actions and sadly my guess is that Biden may have reason to suspect that any direct show of force would result in an actual WW3 situation. It’s a mess. 

There's basically no chance that any NATO country would directly attack Russian troops in Ukraine because it would mean a direct conflict between NATO and Russia that could escalate fast to a nuclear confrontation.

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6 hours ago, zkom said:

There's basically no chance that any NATO country would directly attack Russian troops in Ukraine because it would mean a direct conflict between NATO and Russia that could escalate fast to a nuclear confrontation.

that's true as of right now. but if this continues to escalate as it's looking like will happen, then I think the next few days are really going to put NATO to the test in regards to not getting directly involved militarily. if this next wave of Russian forces being sent into Ukraine amounts to hundreds more (or thousands) of civilian casualties, then the humanity part of our brains is going to overwhelm the rational part, and IMO there will be more and more public pressure put on NATO for direct military response. that will be the shit hits the fan moment I know no one wants to see happen. but I can't imagine any country being able to stomach seeing massive amounts of civilians getting killed. if Russia sends in these convoys that are going to be expected to commit huge amounts of on the ground violence to an overwhelmed Ukraine, then a change of thought as to how to respond is undoubtedly going to occur.

fuckin hell. this is all so bad. the planet seems to just be finally crawling out of 2 years of pandemic doom and gloom, and now this. 

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