Russia is now bombing Ukraine

[beerwolf]

On 6/29/2022 at 12:34 AM, zazen said:

I've been away from this thread for about 20 pages, a few months ago it seemed Russia were about to crumble. But they're still there. They have had to re-focus on the east, thats something I suppose. But this is looking like a long slog now, and Ukraine has to keep the support flowing in to stand a chance. Becomes a game of keeping people's attention....

Agree. It’s odd when you hear news reports about how Ukraine can win the war on the BBC and then 20 minutes later see a map where ‘pink’ shows territory taken by Russia which is almost the whole Eastern flank of the country. So how does that add up then? I know I’m not the most academic of people but I’m quite sharp when it comes to sensing bullshit. 

Edited July 11, 2022 by beerwolf

[ignatius]

1 minute ago, beerwolf said:

Agree. It’s odd when you hear news reports about how Ukraine can win the war on the BBC and then see a map where ‘pink’ shows territory taken by Russia which is almost the whole Eastern flank of the country. So how does that add up then? I know I’m not the most academic of people but I’m quite sharp when it comes to sensing bullshit. 

russia is essentially turning back the clock on some places by turning them to rubble. flattening entire places. i guess it's what they did in syria. it's their standard method of operating. 

they got beat back for a while and refocused on the other region.. sort of like creating a border then wrecking it all in the border.. pouring fire into it. 

 

[cichlisuite]

30 minutes ago, Satans Little Helper said:

Thanks!

It's a bit too obvious by now to wonder out loud, but it still surprises me that this "ukrainian-russian"-conflict is actually about Russia fighting the "West" on Ukrainian territory (which Putin argues is Russian territory in the first place). Russia, in their mind (if you can actually say that), is actually at war with the west. With us. This is F-ed up.

/obvious

In this case (and at this point in time) it's more about the West (cough USA cough) fighting Russia by Ukraine's proxy. It's an ad-hoc experiment with the ultimate goal to weaken Russia. Bidet rejected all of Zelenskyy's proposals for a peace settlement. Talks are off the table (for now at least) One can see how the grim reality of international politics hit Zelensky like a train; since Bidet chinwagged with the EU coalition, his energy visibly lowered. Again, opportunistic play by USA, who tries to do another Russia vs. USA via Afghanistan 2.0. And Russia will not back down. It's despicable. Nothing ever changes on the big stage. It's all power play.

[chenGOD]

1 hour ago, cichlisuite said:

In this case (and at this point in time) it's more about the West (cough USA cough) fighting Russia by Ukraine's proxy. It's an ad-hoc experiment with the ultimate goal to weaken Russia. Bidet rejected all of Zelenskyy's proposals for a peace settlement. Talks are off the table (for now at least) One can see how the grim reality of international politics hit Zelensky like a train; since Bidet chinwagged with the EU coalition, his energy visibly lowered. Again, opportunistic play by USA, who tries to do another Russia vs. USA via Afghanistan 2.0. And Russia will not back down. It's despicable. Nothing ever changes on the big stage. It's all power play.

So Russia invaded the Ukraine to aide the US in this ad-hoc experiment? That's awfully generous of Vlad.

[Satans Little Helper]

4 hours ago, cichlisuite said:

In this case (and at this point in time) it's more about the West (cough USA cough) fighting Russia by Ukraine's proxy. It's an ad-hoc experiment with the ultimate goal to weaken Russia. Bidet rejected all of Zelenskyy's proposals for a peace settlement. Talks are off the table (for now at least) One can see how the grim reality of international politics hit Zelensky like a train; since Bidet chinwagged with the EU coalition, his energy visibly lowered. Again, opportunistic play by USA, who tries to do another Russia vs. USA via Afghanistan 2.0. And Russia will not back down. It's despicable. Nothing ever changes on the big stage. It's all power play.

Smells like mental gymnastics. And I say this with the knowledge that voices in US government have indeed mentioned preferring Russia dig themselves in the Ukrainien hole (because it weakens them).

Apparently, Russia is under some immediate threat. Which one exactly? Nazis in the Ukraine? Or Ukraine’s desire to join Nato (and or EU) and become a western democracy? * cough its not the nazis cough * 

And if so, what is the immediate threat? It didn’t look like the Ukrain was going anywhere (eu or nato). That discussion only started to move again *after* Putin made his decision to escalate. And this proces to move towards a western styled democracy, wasnt that based on what the Ukrainien people want? Have you noticed them fighting back against this Russian initiated invasion? You consider that a proxy war of the cough US cough? What do you think motivates the Ukrainien people? Do you really believe these people are mere pawns in some US power play? Come on man. How willfully ignorant do you think those Ukrainians are? They are fighting for their lives and you’re pointing fingers to some half arsed geopolitical propaganda from Russian state tv. 

[zlemflolia]

i think you should also ask what motivated the ukrainian state to perpetrate war against russian border regions for a decade even cutting off water supplies to crimea which russia promptly turned back on again after invading ukraine.  putin wanted to play hero liberating these regions and ended up with a bigger war than he thought.  US+NATO back it as anti-russian proxy war and zelensky is stuck between domestic nazis who will kill him if he surrenders and nato who does not want a peace deal.  just because the ukrainian people are the biggest victims here who need the most consideration does not mean the ukrainian state is not malicious and corrupt even in this scenario

[zlemflolia]

5 hours ago, beerwolf said:

Agree. It’s odd when you hear news reports about how Ukraine can win the war on the BBC and then 20 minutes later see a map where ‘pink’ shows territory taken by Russia which is almost the whole Eastern flank of the country. So how does that add up then? I know I’m not the most academic of people but I’m quite sharp when it comes to sensing bullshit. 

the massive propaganda surrounding everything from the ghost of kiev to the fucking goat of kiev and western backing of the continuation of this war so they can sell weapons reeks of bullshit and human slaughter on a mass scale, there are no good sides especially not the corrupt ukrainian dictatorship which refused to surrender to putin's terms which were basically "stop perpetrating war against donbas and crimea and don't join NATO"

Edited July 12, 2022 by ilqx hermolia xpli

[may be rude]

the above poster is a propagandist

Edited July 12, 2022 by trying to be less rude

[brian trageskin]

9 hours ago, Satans Little Helper said:

 Ukrainien hole [...] the Ukraine [...] Ukraine’s desire [...] the Ukrain [...] the Ukrainien people [...] those Ukrainians [...]

reading this gave me a headache.

[psn]

Headache in U Cranium.

[chronical]

 

[cichlisuite]

16 hours ago, chenGOD said:

So Russia invaded the Ukraine to aide the US in this ad-hoc experiment? That's awfully generous of Vlad.

No, you have to look at it from the other end. Ad-hoc means it was devised to fit this sudden circumstance. Russia criminally invaded Ukraine under its own assumptions/goals, independent of any western interest. However, I'm willing to bet that all the indices for the russian invasion were known well in advance from intelligence sources, and, like in the case of 9/11, were ignored because they could offer an opportunity. I tend to believe this because there was this absence of action from EU/USA, even when Russian units were already assembling on the ukranian borders (but also before that). Also, because even prior to that, Ukraine was in a leadership crisis, and it was well known this was largely because of Russian/USA meddling. This presented a void.

How long after the first russian units crossed the Ukrainian border until any diplomatic (or other) western counter-action was made public? Long enough for the situation to develop into an irreversible chain of events. Long enough to uncover true Russian intentions. Long enough to facilitate proper US response. Which was: seizing the opportunity to sell weapons to Germany (and Finland, and most probably Sweden, and other nations who out of fear are upgrading and expanding their arsenals). Selling weapons to Ukraine and Poland. US selling gas and oil to Germany at a markup, because her main supplier is now conveniently gone. US is leading the "Marshall plan" for Ukraine. 

Bidet's visit to Europe was to give instructions on how to deal with this situation: the main goal is to prolong the war - NO DIPLOMATIC SETTLEMENT, WHY FFS?!? - because the idea to weaken Russia's influence in Europe is a more lucrative goal, with a huge bonus of investment reparative opportunities for rebuilding  a completely shattered Ukraine. The goal is to weaken Russia by destroying Ukraine. This is what western nations (led by USA) believe to be a solution.

[chenGOD]

49 minutes ago, cichlisuite said:

I'm willing to bet that all the indices for the russian invasion were known well in advance from intelligence sources, and, like in the case of 9/11, were ignored

What would you have proposed the "west" do with this intelligence?

 

1 hour ago, cichlisuite said:

US selling gas and oil to Germany at a markup, because her main supplier is now conveniently gone.

There were issues raised by the EU and US over Nord Stream 2 long before this illegal invasion: https://www.dw.com/en/us-sees-gas-exports-to-germany-by-2022/a-45516432 (that's from 2018). EU also purchases gas and oil from the middle east. What the illegal invasion has done  is speed up German plans to increase the use of renewables for energy sources: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-present-renewable-energy-expansion-measures-2022-04-05/ (in the works since last year).
 

1 hour ago, cichlisuite said:

Bidet's visit to Europe was to give instructions on how to deal with this situation: the main goal is to prolong the war - NO DIPLOMATIC SETTLEMENT, WHY FFS?!?

Zelenskyy, during negotiations, said in February (so a month before the US team visited Ukraine) that "effective negotiations cannot happen while invading forces from Russia continue their assault". He reiterated that it is "harder to negotiate with Russia in the face of their [Russian] war crimes" in early April. And of course, the most-recent quote is that Ukraine won't cede any territory for peace with Russia.

The US is selling weapons to Germany because of NATO compatibility and interoperability. Yes the Russian invasion created some urgency, but this is hardly the ad-hoc, opportunistic approach that you seem to be insinuating. This is systemic planning that has undoubtedly been undertaken over a number of years.

The US is selling weapons to Ukraine because Zelenskyy has been calling for an increase in aid in the form of lethal weapons since virtually Day 1 of the illegal invasion.

[may be rude]

 

 

[may be rude]

 

[ignatius]

video/story picked up internationally by news outlets.. made it to the usa.  russian soldiers castrate ukraine POW and stuff his genitals in his mouth, drag him behind a car then shoot him in the head. 

https://news.yahoo.com/horrifying-footage-appears-to-show-russian-captors-castrating-a-ukrainian-prisoner-of-war-221414554.html

this will only make ukraine soldiers fight harder because they don't want to get captured or surrender. 

[may be rude]

interesting blog post by timothy snyder on how putin's power is weakening. https://snyder.substack.com/p/putins-rule-is-weakening

 

 

[ignatius]

whoa. 

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/world/daughter-of-russian-philosopher-alexander-dugin-killed-in-car-explosion/2665902

Quote

 

A car belonging to the daughter of famous Russian political scientist and philosopher Alexander Dugin exploded late Saturday in Moscow, according to media reports.

Darya Dugina’s car exploded on Mozhayskoye highway around 9.45 p.m. local time, with witnesses claiming the blast rocked the vehicle in the middle of the road and scattered debris.

Preliminary reports said she died instantly. The elder Dugin has arrived at the scene, according to a video on social media.

There is no official confirmation or information on the cause of the explosion.

It is unclear if the explosion was an assassination attempt targeting her father, who has been described as the “brain” of Russian President Vladimir Putin. 

Darya Dugina, like her father, was engaged in journalism, philosophy and political science.

 

 

yeah.. here's dugin in 2014. i can't verify the translation though.. 

edit: Ukraine denied any responsibility. 

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/08/21/7364194/

Quote from Podoliak: "Ukraine, of course, has nothing to do with yesterday's explosion [Darya Dugina was killed when her car exploded in flames on the outskirts of Moscow - ed.], because we are not a criminal state, which is the Russian Federation, and even more so not a terrorist state."

Edited August 21, 2022 by ignatius

[MaartenVC]

It's still unclear who targeted her or him and why.
Could be Ukraine, as Dugin is a radical a**hole actively supporting Putin's invasion into Ukraine. Or really, it could be any other victim of the radical groups Dugin supported over the years. But I actually think it could also be Putin himself, for whatever reason.


Anyway, back to Ukraine: It seems, past month, there have been some covert/guerrilla counteroffensives (most likely by Ukraine, maybe with some help from allied resources) in Crimea damaging Russian military positions and infrastructure.
Some photos:

Edited August 21, 2022 by MaartenVC

[Enthusiast]

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/21/ex-russian-mp-claims-russian-partisans-responsible-for-moscow-car-bomb

 

 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2022 by Enthusiast

[chenGOD]

Whoops, another prominent Russian who criticized the war just happened to fall out of a window...

 

[Satans Little Helper]

What a coincidence...

[Soloman Tump]

How careless

[may be rude]

clearly the fault of the west

[marf]

There was the Ukrainian Shipping magnate that got his house blown up. Putin doesn't give a fuck. I always wondered why Putin would kill his enemies with unique profile radiation pellets on the end of umbrellas. I guess to signal to governments and others that they can get you anywhere with something very well regulated? I never fully understood the whacky assassination like the 2,3,7,8-Tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin poisoning of Yushchenko. Why not a bullet?  Why these nutty chemicals and radiation poisonings? Ok, they are throwing people out of windows. Thats more clandestine actually.