Russia is now bombing Ukraine

[Nebraska]

2 hours ago, dingformung said:

The Russian war against the Ukraine is probably a CIA operation and so is the attack on the Nord Stream pipeline. The idea may be to destroy the economic bonds between Russia and Europe and seeding division in the region to increase American influence in Europe and maintain supremacy, weakening the EU, secure American economic influence and shift dependencies. It all serves the interests of a finance elite and war industry. Russian oligarchs and power elite don’t actually care about ideological reasoning and their domestic propaganda, their personal lives aren’t affected by such a war or the suffering of their population, so the economic sanctions on Russia European countries are now doing won’t have any effect other than attacking the wealth of European and Russian citizens, which again will not necessarily influence any decision made about the continuation of the war. It’s all orchestrated by a global elite of industry and mainly American controlled secret services that have their own interests and influence on the media coverage, not a conflict between nations or peoples. The fact that we pay so much attention to this particular war and ignore other wars and topics is a result of that. In the end it is impossible to know the real reasons for anything happening in the world without some historical distance but usually, when it comes down to it, the diagnosis is concentration of non-democratically legitimated power pursuing capitalistic interests. Any ideological differences are just a tool. I suspect that the Russian and the Western elites have planned the conflict in accordance with each other, ignoring the interests of their own nations and people, and maybe even governments. It’s usually really a war between classes, everything else that we are led to believe it is is the result of years of propaganda and indoctrination by an elite that controls every aspect of our information culture. That doesn’t necessarily mean that we are or aren’t directly lied to, it just means that the real incentives, reasons and agendas are completely hidden and impossible to see through for any of us.

they choose the worst time EVER to begin this operation then

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/28/politics/us-embassy-russia-warns-americans-leave/index.html

 

[GORDO]

3 hours ago, ignatius said:

ya think?  who does this hurt the most? i know we have what biden said with the smug close lipped smile.. but seems like this hurts germany and EU the most as winter approaches. putin weaponizing the gas and an energy crisis to put pressure on them is something he's been doing.. but the pipeline "falling out a window" like one of his enemies.. i mean.. wtf. idk.  i mean.. russia still has contracts for that gas and i think they get the money regardless of being able to deliver the gas or something.. so they get the money and EU doesn't get the gas? 

it's gonna play out how it plays out.  what a fucking time to be alive. 

The prospect of Russia supplying Europe with cheap gas was the only thing that could motivate European countries to promote some sort of negotiation.

Now that's gone. it's not even on the table anymore. Russia can neither threaten to cut the supply anymore nor tempt them to alleviate their energy problems. Their top, if not only, card to play is just gone.

Who would be interested in this scenario? Number one ofc Ukraine since it ensures Europe has no incentive now to maybe push for a deal. Number 2 is the united states now they got a big buyer for their overpriced gas, plus the above, removing any sort of leverage Russia had over Europe.

Among these two who has the means to carry out such sabotage? 

[ignatius]

1 hour ago, GORDO said:

The prospect of Russia supplying Europe with cheap gas was the only thing that could motivate European countries to promote some sort of negotiation.

Now that's gone. it's not even on the table anymore. Russia can neither threaten to cut the supply anymore nor tempt them to alleviate their energy problems. Their top, if not only, card to play is just gone.

Who would be interested in this scenario? Number one ofc Ukraine since it ensures Europe has no incentive now to maybe push for a deal. Number 2 is the united states now they got a big buyer for their overpriced gas, plus the above, removing any sort of leverage Russia had over Europe.

Among these two who has the means to carry out such sabotage? 

yeah true.. this guy has a reasonable take on it. 

 

[droid]

Aghast as I am to be in agreement with the tankies and conspiracy nuts and Russians, but it was totally the US. They had the means, the motive and the opportunity as well as a record as long as your arm.

[ignatius]

26 minutes ago, droid said:

Aghast as I am to be in agreement with the tankies and conspiracy nuts and Russians, but it was totally the US. They had the means, the motive and the opportunity as well as a record as long as your arm.

and biden saying they'd do it on camera.  what kinda fucked up clown world are we living in?

Norway to deploy military to protect its oil and gas installations

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/norway-beefs-up-security-across-oil-gas-sector-2022-09-28/

 

Edited September 28, 2022 by ignatius

[Enthusiast]

The same people claiming this was the United States doing also blamed the west when Russia invaded Ukraine. 

[jaderpansen]

it's estimated all around 800.000.000€ worth of gas will leak til around sunday... no idea what to think about anything anymore tbh.

[ignatius]

 

[rek]

the unfortunate thing about energy in europe is that there's really no energy shortage, only greed and corruption on the highest levels. the energy brokers ain't broke, to mangle a pun. the other unfortunate thing is that most people (on both sides of the iron curtain) accept the word of politicians and their banker/corporate controllers, and their owned and controlled mainstream news sources on face value and wonder why the world never seems to become a utopia.

Edited September 30, 2022 by rek

[ignatius]

[chenGOD]

Nord Stream was financed by both European and Russian companies.

https://www.nord-stream.com/press-info/press-releases/nord-stream-completes-phase-ii-financing-305/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream_2#Costs_and_financing

Russia certainly has the capability to sail undetected and also has underwater drone capability.

Ukraine also has underwater drone capability (the UK delivered to them last month) and they have been calling for a complete embargo on Russian fuel purchases.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/qa-nord-stream-gas-sabotage-whos-being-blamed-why-2022-09-30/

https://www.wired.com/story/nord-stream-pipeline-sabotage-explosion-russia-gas/

All that to say - exactly what Beau (Bo?) said in that youtube video - no-one knows yet.

[ignatius]

 

[Enthusiast]

You think the blower uppers of their own economy wouldn't blow up a pipe?

[Milwaukeeeee]

No

[ignatius]

1 hour ago, Enthusiast said:

You think the blower uppers of their own economy wouldn't blow up a pipe?

just saw a news report that said it's obvious putin did it because of how he smirked when someone asked him about it. 

[Wunderbar]

I think its Luxembourg who did it.

[ignatius]

 

[dingformung]

On 9/29/2022 at 3:27 AM, GORDO said:

The prospect of Russia supplying Europe with cheap gas was the only thing that could motivate European countries to promote some sort of negotiation.

Ironically, Russia is benefiting from rising international oil and gas prices caused by the Ukraine crisis.

Germany and other EU members now buy Russian raw materials via India, but more expensively.

Germany and other EU members now purchase even more oil and gas from other countries that wage wars that violate international law and disregard human rights.  Examples: Saudi Arabia (Yemen war), Qatar (fascist-like Islamism), USA (can also be used as an example for a nation that has waged numerous wars that violate international law and sometimes attacks foreign countries with a Putin-like encroachment, Iraq is just an example), Azerbaijan (dictatorship, recent war with Armenia).

This is not really about human rights, but about complex interests of nations and international actors such as secret services and business elites. If the humanitarian aspect were decisive, our media and governments would also address and react to other wars with similar intensity. This bigotry is related to the fact that capitalist interests are the actual motive for the actions of all actors involved, except for the Ukrainians who are being attacked.

 

[dingformung]

5 hours ago, chenGOD said:

Ukraine also has underwater drone capability (the UK delivered to them last month) and they have been calling for a complete embargo on Russian fuel purchases.

Ukraine has no interest in attacking pipelines of countries that potentially will send them a lot of weapons to help them defend against Russia.

[chenGOD]

8 minutes ago, dingformung said:

Ukraine has no interest in attacking pipelines of countries that potentially will send them a lot of weapons to help them defend against Russia.

The pipeline belongs to russia (nominally), and is used to send Russian gas to European countries. Russia will not send weapons to Ukraine to defend against Russia.

As I noted earlier - Ukraine has called for a total embargo on Russian oil and gas.

[dingformung]

2 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

The pipeline belongs to russia (nominally), and is used to send Russian gas to European countries. Russia will not send weapons to Ukraine to defend against Russia.

As I noted earlier - Ukraine has called for a total embargo on Russian oil and gas.

The pipelines were financed by Russian and European, mainly German, companies and lead directly to Germany (which also at least officially tries to minimise climate impacts, so wouldn’t be happy about anyone doing this). Germany is discussing to send tanks and other weapons to the Ukraine, which may have a significant impact on the course of the war. The Ukraine won’t risk damaging their relationship to Germany and the EU at this point as they depend on their help. It was most likely some American secret service.

[chenGOD]

19 minutes ago, dingformung said:

The pipelines were financed by Russian and European

Yes, I noted that above. It's still owned by Russia. The only insurance companies that would insure it were Russian.

20 minutes ago, dingformung said:

It was most likely some American secret service.

As has been said by many people, there is not enough information to make a determination one way or the other.

[ignatius]

25 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

Yes, I noted that above. It's still owned by Russia. The only insurance companies that would insure it were Russian.

As has been said by many people, there is not enough information to make a determination one way or the other.

I’m 50/50 Russia or America and 50% no idea. Though also maybe 50% those orcas that hunt great white sharks by ramming them and ripping out their livers

[dingformung]

26 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

Yes, I noted that above. It's still owned by Russia. 

I thought you tried to suggest that this is as an argument that the Ukrainians had an interest in attacking the pipeline while in fact they have more of an interest in receiving weapons from EU countries, so they won’t attack pipelines that go to the EU and were built by EU countries. Maybe I misunderstand you.

It is highly unlikely Ukraine did it.

 

26 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

The only insurance companies that would insure it were Russian.

Do you suspect Russia is trying to scam their own insurance companies?

 

26 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

As has been said by many people, there is not enough information to make a determination one way or the other.

It seems likely to be as I suspect, though, for a number of reasons. Of course we don’t know for sure

[usagi]

I did it. for the rush, the adaptation and the general nihilism of the act.