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the International Criminal Court issues arrest warrant for putin for kidnapping thousands of kids so far in ukraine war

 

the below poster is a propagandist

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if only ukraine had just accepted putins original terms of surrender and allowed independence of the regions they had been perpetrating civil wars against for a decade then there wouldn't have been this massive war.  but of course people will attack this statement with vulgar nationalistic pride in the ukrainian borders, or something, which were only drawn a few decades ago in some of those regions for administative reasons in the USSR.  these imaginary borders are more important than ukrainian and russian lives apparently. and people will attack me for saying it when the only goal of the statement is minimization of death, apparently something people urging on ukraine to keep fighting don't care about. if the ukrainian people wanted to fight this war they wouldn't need to be drafting everyone from young boys to transgender women into the war

Edited by zlemflolia
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48 minutes ago, trying to be less rude said:

the International Criminal Court issues arrest warrant for putin for kidnapping thousands of kids so far in ukraine war

 

maybe he'll turn himself in

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On 3/17/2023 at 7:41 PM, zlemflolia said:

if only ukraine had just accepted putins original terms of surrender and allowed independence of the regions they had been perpetrating civil wars against for a decade then there wouldn't have been this massive war.  but of course people will attack this statement with vulgar nationalistic pride in the ukrainian borders, or something, which were only drawn a few decades ago in some of those regions for administative reasons in the USSR.  these imaginary borders are more important than ukrainian and russian lives apparently. and people will attack me for saying it when the only goal of the statement is minimization of death, apparently something people urging on ukraine to keep fighting don't care about. if the ukrainian people wanted to fight this war they wouldn't need to be drafting everyone from young boys to transgender women into the war

yeah , Ukraine didnt fight for Crimea , look what happened next . and those " imaginary " borders you talk about were accepted by whole world , including russia . for Ukraine its not a war for territories or borders (as it is for russia) - its a war for survival . 

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5 hours ago, maxwellsq said:

yeah , Ukraine didnt fight for Crimea , look what happened next . and those " imaginary " borders you talk about were accepted by whole world , including russia . for Ukraine its not a war for territories or borders (as it is for russia) - its a war for survival . 

it's obvious putin wants to create some version of the USSR but also wants to be able to loot ukraine's assets/raw materials the way they're looting russia. 

in moldovo they've already stopped a couple russian plots to stir up dissent.  hopefully putin falls down a flight of stairs and dies.. or something.. anything to stop this madness. it really is just madness and greed and lust for something in his mind. also wants to destroy ukraine identity. 

he must be stopped or he'll just keep doing this and keep creeping in to europe or wherever. 

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On 3/17/2023 at 12:41 PM, zlemflolia said:

if only ukraine had just accepted putins original terms of surrender and allowed independence of the regions they had been perpetrating civil wars against for a decade then there wouldn't have been this massive war.  but of course people will attack this statement with vulgar nationalistic pride in the ukrainian borders, or something, which were only drawn a few decades ago in some of those regions for administative reasons in the USSR.  these imaginary borders are more important than ukrainian and russian lives apparently. and people will attack me for saying it when the only goal of the statement is minimization of death, apparently something people urging on ukraine to keep fighting don't care about. if the ukrainian people wanted to fight this war they wouldn't need to be drafting everyone from young boys to transgender women into the war

Yeah, those Ukes should just accept a brutal murderous occupation, a total lack of basic civil rights, and gangster justice meted out in basements. So that we can minimize deaths amirite?

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2 hours ago, Walter Ostanek said:

Yeah, those Ukes should just accept a brutal murderous occupation, a total lack of basic civil rights, and gangster justice meted out in basements. So that we can minimize deaths amirite?

original terms of surrender did not involve occupation and theres nothing suggesting putin wanted to occupy or maintain an occupation.  you can say he would have just lied and ignored them but then whats the point of asking for them when clearly if he did that they would back out of the terms

i cant even find them now since search engines are useless for finding information, probably on purpose, but i copied the list of terms early on in this thread and everyone thought they were so horrible, well they were very preferable to what has ended up happening.

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3 hours ago, zlemflolia said:

original terms of surrender did not involve occupation and theres nothing suggesting putin wanted to occupy or maintain an occupation.  you can say he would have just lied and ignored them but then whats the point of asking for them when clearly if he did that they would back out of the terms

i cant even find them now since search engines are useless for finding information, probably on purpose, but i copied the list of terms early on in this thread and everyone thought they were so horrible, well they were very preferable to what has ended up happening.

have read several stories about children being stolen from ukraine and sent to russia to "become russian"  this is how you erase a culture..a  culture that putin doesn't think exists anyways. 

seems, i don't know.. maybe.. just maybe a little.. ugh.. uncool or something. but maybe i'm wrong.. maybe putin and the oligarchs don't want to install a crony government and loot ukraine the way they loot russia all the while using gays as scapegoats to make plans to fuck with other countries.. no one should resist any of this. just let a mafia government take over and have its way because those guys stole all that industry and cash fair and square and they should have the biggest yachts and all that stuff.. pet tigers or whatever.. and those london banks should also make lot's of money laundering those billions and letting russian oligarchs buy huge mansions in london and stuff.. 

 

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6 minutes ago, ignatius said:

have read several stories about children being stolen from ukraine and sent to russia to "become russian"  this is how you erase a culture..a  culture that putin doesn't think exists anyways. 

seems, i don't know.. maybe.. just maybe a little.. ugh.. uncool or something. but maybe i'm wrong.. maybe putin and the oligarchs don't want to install a crony government and loot ukraine the way they loot russia all the while using gays as scapegoats to make plans to fuck with other countries.. no one should resist any of this. just let a mafia government take over and have its way because those guys stole all that industry and cash fair and square and they should have the biggest yachts and all that stuff.. pet tigers or whatever.. and those london banks should also make lot's of money laundering those billions and letting russian oligarchs buy huge mansions in london and stuff.. 

 

i mean isnt that what the US and NATO already did

im not trying to simp for putin, but sending the ukrainian government, one that was already massively corrupt, tons of weapons and extending this war doesn't help.  how can we tell whether it was preferable to let ukraine lose rather than prolong the war and kill more people and destroy more infrastructure, rather than go with the terms of their loss? we can't know, since the US and nato aren't interested in finding out to begin with since they fueled this

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17 minutes ago, zlemflolia said:

i mean isnt that what the US and NATO already did

im not trying to simp for putin, but sending the ukrainian government, one that was already massively corrupt, tons of weapons and extending this war doesn't help.  how can we tell whether it was preferable to let ukraine lose rather than prolong the war and kill more people and destroy more infrastructure, rather than go with the terms of their loss? we can't know, since the US and nato aren't interested in finding out to begin with since they fueled this

i guess we shouldn't make decisions at all because who will know how things will turn out????? 

let's just decide to NOT do stuff since that's how the world works. don't follow your gut.. it's probably wrong.. don't follow your intellect.. it's probably wrong too. 

after putin invaded crimea.. was only a matter of time until ukraine was next.. then who else? moldova maybe? we'll see.. but who knows.. let's just shrivel up into a ball and let things happen and hope the net loss/gains even out in 20 years or so.. 

 

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i mean you can hyperbolize what i said if you want but all im trying to say is supporting the ukrainian government and NATO is not a flawless position and you are supporting a corrupt oligarchic state that just happens to be on the defensive (whereas it used to be on the offensive against its own citizens in decades long civil wars) along with imperialist NATO warmongers urging them on with weapons.

the only side anyone should be on is the citizens, whose material interests are not necessarily aligned directly with one specific nation in this national conflict, but is instead aligned directly with whatever ends the war the soonest, no matter what national pride is bruised, and backing ukraine+NATO is not the clear position that will end the war ASAP unless you can convince me otherwise, and its now gone on how long? so clearly that didn't work well.

why is ukraine drafting if the people themselves supposedly want to fight so bad?  no, the state wants to force the people to fight

antiwar vs prolong the war on ukraine/nato's "side"

I think the more moral position is clear

Edited by zlemflolia
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7 hours ago, zlemflolia said:

i mean you can hyperbolize what i said if you want but all im trying to say is supporting the ukrainian government and NATO is not a flawless position and you are supporting a corrupt oligarchic state that just happens to be on the defensive (whereas it used to be on the offensive against its own citizens in decades long civil wars) along with imperialist NATO warmongers urging them on with weapons.

the only side anyone should be on is the citizens, whose material interests are not necessarily aligned directly with one specific nation in this national conflict, but is instead aligned directly with whatever ends the war the soonest, no matter what national pride is bruised, and backing ukraine+NATO is not the clear position that will end the war ASAP unless you can convince me otherwise, and its now gone on how long? so clearly that didn't work well.

why is ukraine drafting if the people themselves supposedly want to fight so bad?  no, the state wants to force the people to fight

antiwar vs prolong the war on ukraine/nato's "side"

I think the more moral position is clear

Leon Trotsky: Learn to Think (1938)

 

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9 hours ago, zlemflolia said:

i mean you can hyperbolize what i said if you want but all im trying to say is supporting the ukrainian government and NATO is not a flawless position and you are supporting a corrupt oligarchic state that just happens to be on the defensive (whereas it used to be on the offensive against its own citizens in decades long civil wars) along with imperialist NATO warmongers urging them on with weapons.

the only side anyone should be on is the citizens, whose material interests are not necessarily aligned directly with one specific nation in this national conflict, but is instead aligned directly with whatever ends the war the soonest, no matter what national pride is bruised, and backing ukraine+NATO is not the clear position that will end the war ASAP unless you can convince me otherwise, and its now gone on how long? so clearly that didn't work well.

why is ukraine drafting if the people themselves supposedly want to fight so bad?  no, the state wants to force the people to fight

antiwar vs prolong the war on ukraine/nato's "side"

I think the more moral position is clear

I don’t think you can speak for the people of Ukraine. 

edit: also, you know they had an uprising there to throw out the dictator who spent a fortune on his palace and made himself a private pond and private zoo w/griaffes and stuff right? i mean.. people died in the streets to make this happen and they chased him from power because he was a stooge of russia and corrupt af. yes, ukraine has oligarch and there's still corruption. change takes time but obviously they're working it out and making it happen. 

the country has changed and is still changing even while the war is ongoing. 

russia is immoral, most corrupt on the planet perhaps.. if not in the top 3. it's a joke that you don't see this and some how think it's the better option to let them run over their neighbor which they're doing because that country is trying to change and be its own distinct country and have control over its destiny and all that shit.. .it's crystal fucking clear. 

Edited by ignatius
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dont see how becoming the latest weapons contractor cash cow by letting themselves be used in a US-Russia proxy war and destroying their country and killing so many people in the process is forging their own path, or other idealism.  and its not even the ukrainian state's fault, it's the US's

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5 hours ago, Alcofribas said:

this was good thanks

however, it doesn't address this situation directly.  this situation is directly an inter-capitalist conflict between the Ukrainian and Russian bourgeoisie, fought by each's proletariat, and more indirectly it is an inter-capitalist conflict between the US and Russian bourgeoisie.  i don't think i would characterize it as a Ukrainian anti-imperialist national liberation struggle; when regarding the history of the event it's more clearly an inter-capitalist US-Russia proxy war being fought on Ukrainian soil

what should be a Ukrainian proletarian's reaction? clearly accepting weapons from NATO and using them against Russia

what should be a Russian proletarian's reaction?  clearly this document claims that it would be sabotage of the Russian military offensive

what should be an American proletarian's reaction?  I'm not entirely sure how you differentiate it from the Russian's proletarian reaction.  what is the effect of pushing escalation of the conflict by encouraging NATO arms shipments to the Ukrainian bourgeoisie, apart from lengthening the war and making it more severe?  when you look at putin's claims as to why he started the war, the facts that were previously reported in even mainstream media pre-war, its clear that a naive interpretation of putin invading for fun or for ukrainian resources, as if there will be any left at this point, is not very meaningful, when clearly his statements were directed at biden and NATO

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1 hour ago, zlemflolia said:

dont see how becoming the latest weapons contractor cash cow by letting themselves be used in a US-Russia proxy war and destroying their country and killing so many people in the process is forging their own path, or other idealism.  and its not even the ukrainian state's fault, it's the US's

well US will be US. they seek to maintain their dominance in world affairs, and will always look only after their own interest. Any other nation (China in this case) would do the same. Nothing good comes out of pursuing that goal. And US is as dirty as anyone will ever be. However, don't be naive to think that Putin would go easy on Ukraine if the annexation happened without the western interference. And don't think Putin would stop there. If anything, without western interference, Putin would be encouraged to take more and more land. Where does it stop?

One must look further back into history (but not too far) to understand what actually is happening here. There was a time when EU and Putin tried to be friends. It was a mutual desire, Putin himself officially expressed a wish to join the EU. Do you know who disrupted this? USA. A sovereign EU (that is, without being basically a vassal state of USA as it is now) in a close alliance with Russia (not necessarily a member state of EU) would be a very strong entity in global affairs. And if you count in relatively close alignment of China and Russia -- a tripartite pact like that, the status of USA is seriously threatened. Obviously, they will never stand for that. Even if that pact was strictly benevolent on the world stage, USA simply would not stand for it, because they would not be able to operate from a position of strength in negotiations as they are used to. They are just not built like that. Never gonna happen. Not even in the wildest nightmares.

Enter Putin as a solo player. A Stalin fanboy, a paranoid brute, he is not capable of delegating to competent people. He is afraid of them. It's the world he was brought up in, it's the doctrine he's fanboying for. He had good diplomatic options initially (that is before Chechniya, Georgia, or Ukraine debacles), a blank paper to write on, so to speak. He failed miserably at diplomacy, where he could gain much by soft, indirect leverage. He would never need to take a single plot of land. Today, everything is business. He could've established a reasonably good democracy, leave the Kremlin on a good standing and good prospects. But this was never his domain, so we can safely say he would never have succeeded going that way. That is not to say that the 'good' Putin would never face fierce opposition from USA.

About Ukraine, this unfortunate amalgam of nations with her borders drawn by a foreign committee (just like the Middle-East after Sykes-Picot, and just like Africa) was a powder keg waiting to explode. What is weird to me is that I can't explain to myself such things in any other way but to see them as a deliberate, manufactured kegs, being volatile by design. Nothing is learned from history, that is, if the 'international community concerned' is truly benevolent in their determination to draw these borders. Every time this happens, shit hits the fan at some point later on. One would think that there must be another way. But it's not. It's always the same shit in the end: war. And the profits that come along with it.

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a tangent but as long as there are resources being contested by various representative entities with leverage there will be resource deprivation and escalating conflict to resolve them, the conflicts will manifest in points of contradiction in the chain of production or geography.  the only resolution is the elimination of the contesting entities altogether and the planning of conflictless distribution and production through a unified system of harmonious agreement, hate to always end up saying it but it seems only capable of being done through socialism, which is hardly completely unrelated considering russia/ukraine's past and US's original anti-socialist aims with NATO

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1 hour ago, zlemflolia said:

the only resolution is the elimination of the contesting entities altogether and the planning of conflictless distribution and production through a unified system of harmonious agreement,

so go ask nicely. i'm sure they'll see your logic and lay down arms and wear big smiles on their faces as they hug in joy and set out to make paradise.  perhaps they'll all get on board w/fighting climate change too and agree to dismantle the global market economy. no need to force anyone to do anything. just explain. 

anyone who doesn't agree can go to the gulag or GITMO or join the Uyghurs in camps.. or whatever you choose. 

 

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2 hours ago, prdctvsm said:

da6wyop-957c0285-48ea-4d9f-afaa-1bf12b89 ?

stalin, what a prankster though. he'd make his cabinet and military people drink until they threw up or passed out and do it consecutive nights to the same people.  if you hung out w/stalin you could drink or die.. from drinking. 

also, stalin and ukraine.. it's complicated. 

listened to some stories about iraq recently since it's 20 years since USA did the thing... it's basically crony capitalism. super corrupt.. as is the way. USA broke it good. lot's of younger people there who weren't alive under sadam aren't so happy w/USA and UK and that whole mess that happened. not that the older people who lived through it are happy either.. 

anyway.. who wants hot cocoa?

edit: also, Russian activity near Norway’s oil and gas pipelines being monitored by NATO

obviously super mainstream media angle but.. 

 

Edited by ignatius
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On 3/23/2023 at 7:50 AM, zlemflolia said:

i mean you can hyperbolize what i said if you want but all im trying to say is supporting the ukrainian government and NATO is not a flawless position and you are supporting a corrupt oligarchic state that just happens to be on the defensive (whereas it used to be on the offensive against its own citizens in decades long civil wars) along with imperialist NATO warmongers urging them on with weapons.

the only side anyone should be on is the citizens, whose material interests are not necessarily aligned directly with one specific nation in this national conflict, but is instead aligned directly with whatever ends the war the soonest, no matter what national pride is bruised, and backing ukraine+NATO is not the clear position that will end the war ASAP unless you can convince me otherwise, and its now gone on how long? so clearly that didn't work well.

why is ukraine drafting if the people themselves supposedly want to fight so bad?  no, the state wants to force the people to fight

antiwar vs prolong the war on ukraine/nato's "side"

I think the more moral position is clear

decades long civil wars ? are you stupid or just lying ?

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