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\\\ Renoise 1.8 ///


Paulie Walnuts
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"if renoise were to go that way half the community would migrate to Skale or Buzz"

 

not if it would be an extra, an option, feature, blah, it should never replace the vertical pattern setup. If they implement it, like fruity's pianoroll I can defenitely see use for it, would create another type of workflow.

 

Imagine making a melody pattern, and another pattern with just drums & mix these 2 patterns in the pianoroll... mixing patterns with different speeds, you could also make a normal vertical tracked song & in the end decide to add some extra patterns in the pianoroll etc etc. Yeah, they should take a hard look at how fruity has implemented this.

 

 

the whole point is fruity is really shit for sequencing unless you're making dubstep

 

i doubt i've made a single track in the last 5 years that would be compatible with piano rolls... there's so many instances when being able to pre or post-trigger note on's and note offs is important - every old prodigy tune did this because he was playing in everything live - it's only been the advent of piano rolls and arrange pages which has seen so many producers start to rigidly work and think in blocks... there's work-arounds in floops and logic, but they're messy and ideally avoided - to the point where so much music nowadays is blocked off in either 1 or 2 bar sections.

 

it was PlayerPro, on the Mac... the first tracker as far as i know to implement a piano roll...

 

dropped off the face of the earth shortly afterwards.

 

there would be a backlash in the tracker community - i don't just dislike piano rolls, i think they're the most damaging thing you can encounter as a musician... it's hard not to let them fuck you up

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Thanks Maynard, you re-solidified my generalization of this subforum, and thus will not bother coming back.

 

1) That dubstep comment is retarded, no one sequencer is made for one type of music. I don't even like fruity loops.

 

2) You can pre post trigger not on's and off's in piano roll's just fine.

 

3) Floops and logic aren't the only piano roll sequencers out there.

 

4) Trackers are very much block based as well unless you use a tickless tracker like Aodix or Cyanphase

 

5) Just cuz a mac based tracker failed years ago doesn't mean it will fail in all cases

 

6) I'm glad you speak for tracker community, the most damaging thing a musician can encounter? Hard to not let them fuck musicians up? I don't even think i'm gonna bother touching any of this bullshit.

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1) wrong - Sibellius is made for orchestral music

 

2) no you can't

 

3) duh

 

4) no they're not - you can leave midi events hanging as long as you want

 

5) "those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it"

 

6) "The worst things (in the world) are the timeline sequencers where you can see on the screen what's coming up. That really f**ks with your head..." - Sean Booth

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i don't just dislike piano rolls, i think they're the most damaging thing you can encounter as a musician... it's hard not to let them fuck you up

 

This is by far the silliest, silliest thing I've read in relation to computer aided composition. I guess if you're not doing anything other than harmonically/melodically suffocated music then not seeing intervals or how a melodic line develops over time is no big deal, but to anyone who plays an instrument or reads traditional notation the piano roll is no different from seeing the pitch vs. time trails in your head as your fingers move across the keys/frets/holes/pads/valves/whatever.

 

Trackers are good for beats and microprogramming but are very restrictive for actual composition. Perhaps this is just something that people coming from a classically trained background feel, but i'm sure there will be many that agree with me.

Edited by Severian
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i don't just dislike piano rolls, i think they're the most damaging thing you can encounter as a musician... it's hard not to let them fuck you up

 

This is by far the silliest, silliest thing I've read in relation to computer aided composition. I guess if you're not doing anything other than harmonically/melodically suffocated music then not seeing intervals or how a melodic line develops over time is no big deal, but to anyone who plays an instrument or reads traditional notation the piano roll is no different from seeing the pitch vs. time trails in your head as your fingers move across the keys/frets/holes/pads/valves/whatever.

 

Trackers are good for beats and microprogramming but are very restrictive for actual composition. Perhaps this is just something that people coming from a classically trained background feel, but i'm sure there will be many that agree with me.

 

 

i was at one of the europe's top schools for music (stowe) on a scholarship - went on to do a year studying serial composition in NY... been to more stockhausen lectures than i can even remember

 

real musicians can't take piano rolls seriously

 

see, the fact you think there's anything natural about seeing pitch vs time as a horizontal line is what i'd call, and what sean booth, liam howlett (classically trained), tom jenkinson, etc. would call being messed up in the head already

 

time is not a horizontal line - it's more akin to a tunnel you're travelling through - the Z dimension

 

no serious composer actually composes horizontally - this is such an important thing to realise - a major part of what stockhausen, ligeti, boulez and reich did, as well as the black musicians of the same era, was to break down linear ways of thinking about, performing and conceptualizing music...

 

10_important_words.jpg

 

the way music's written can't help but affect how we perceive it - whether you're composer, performer or listener... it's absolutely fundamental...

 

stockhausen actually invented what we now know as the piano roll style of sequencing as a deliberately mathematical and systematic way to record formulated music - as with Gesang der Junglinge... but this was music born out of strict logical systems - not melodies and song ideas

 

the reason sheet notation is as esoteric and coded as it is, is absolutely to stop you hearing with your eyes... you can scan sheet music, but the aural translation is indirect - the length of a note is a code, the key is held in memory, parts don't all line up exactly underneath... when you see a certain cluster of notes, you don't translate each note audio/visually, it represents a chord which you can trigger independantly - that chord then represents some kind of harmony information in context, maybe it's some chromatic harmony, a raised third on the supertonic resolving to the dominant or something... but you see what's important composition wise - you understand what's going on musically - but you don't see notes like stupid long bricks on a toy piano

 

on a piano roll you just start hearing music like a baby would

 

 

a tracker's as close to ideal as you'll get - you don't write music with a mouse or a pencil - you write music in your head or on a keyboard... however you're writing, you never make that fatal horizontal connection - the human eye doesn't scan from top to bottom in that way - it's much closer to stockhausen's construct of a tunnel or a journey... you're able to see only what's slightly ahead and slightly behind, and only if you look for it

 

 

i set an open challenge once, find me one good piece of music written in fruity loops... absolute pollutant

Edited by Maynard F. Periwinkle
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I have to get back to work... I'll leave you with this:

 

"There's nothing better than turning the screen off and just going analogue," stresses Booth. "You're not looking at data representation and so you can drift off and just listen. We do this a lot. When we're putting things down and mixing things and are trying to make things sound right, the screen has to go off. It's an illusion that totally pollutes what you're thinking and what you're listening to. Yes, you can be in the zone when sitting with a laptop. You absolutely can. But you just want to listen and not interact with the device. The worst things are the timeline sequencers where you can see on the screen what's coming up. That really f**ks with your head when you're listening."

 

- Autechre

 

(Published in SOS April 2004)

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Well, uh, thanks for that. Completely apocryphal at best, but hey - internets. The fallacies behind the arguments you are making highlight to me that you are lying about your credentials and don't quite have a firm grasp on what you're rambling about, so there's not much point trying to turn this into some sort of interesting discussion. I'll use the time saved to go and tell all my friends they aren't real musicians!

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I have to get back to work... I'll leave you with this:

 

"There's nothing better than turning the screen off and just going analogue," stresses Booth. "You're not looking at data representation and so you can drift off and just listen. We do this a lot. When we're putting things down and mixing things and are trying to make things sound right, the screen has to go off. It's an illusion that totally pollutes what you're thinking and what you're listening to. Yes, you can be in the zone when sitting with a laptop. You absolutely can. But you just want to listen and not interact with the device. The worst things are the timeline sequencers where you can see on the screen what's coming up. That really f**ks with your head when you're listening."

 

- Autechre

 

(Published in SOS April 2004)

how many times have you posted that? it doesn't even mention piano-rolls.

 

it's not hard to look away from a screen and listen, and have enough self-control to not allow yourself to be affected by the visual side of things.

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Guest mushroom

underneath all the pretentiousness and dictional obfuscation, swift actually has some interesting ideas from time to time. I wish he'd post at least a fucking sample of his music, though.

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underneath all the pretentiousness and dictional obfuscation, swift actually has some interesting ideas from time to time. I wish he'd post at least a fucking sample of his music, though.

he doesn't make music...it's like an elaborate joke rofl

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Well, uh, thanks for that. Completely apocryphal at best, but hey - internets. The fallacies behind the arguments you are making highlight to me that you are lying about your credentials and don't quite have a firm grasp on what you're rambling about, so there's not much point trying to turn this into some sort of interesting discussion. I'll use the time saved to go and tell all my friends they aren't real musicians!

 

 

nice, non-specific reply there - why not pick out a single fallacy? you might as well roll over and let me tickle your belly you narrow-minded little runt.

 

 

anyway, i got into electronic music thru s/w like cubase on the ST... i did notice something happening in the early days - my appreciation for electronic music would fade as i became more involved in production - a once emotive melody would often sound strangely empty... i found my own piano playing was becoming more bound and less explorative... it was many years later at a party (of all places) where i noticed that my brain had been warped by working in cubase so much ("cubase syndrome") - i was listening to some band and noticed that the drumming, singing, melody, etc. was coming from a conceptually fixed point... it was a frame by frame progression, rather than a left to right journey...

 

the 1st beat in a one bar loop is actually right next to the 4th one - e.g. 2 - 3 - 4 - 1 <-

 

not on the other end of some imaginery line

 

so there's this continuous stream of sound to deal with and conceptualize, not just blocks at all

 

the big problem with piano rolls and even 909 style programming is that you're thinking in a very specific way about composition - and when you listen to the vast majority of modern electronic music, you realise very few people are actually able to write melodies any more

 

it's become not only possible but pretty much standard practice to release music, esp. electronic music, which has no discernable quality whatsoever... it's just sequenced sounds... a bit like a book becoming just arranged words...

 

now every book is arranged words, but what separates a good book from a bad book is not the arrangement, but the concept conveyed thru the arrangement... obviously with music you've got freedom to explore every aspect of sound and concept - but by learning to think horizontally and compartmentally about melody and harmony, you're embracing patterns in exchange for concepts... in other words, the medium takes the focus away from the message

 

what i found after spending a short period of time working with an MMT8 (h/w sequencer) was that my brain adjusted to conceptualizing music in terms of time again, and not in terms of distance, and this experience can leave you at both a loose end and staring at infinite possibilities

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Guest Endoplasmic Reticulum

People, just use whatever works best for you. There is no "correct" way to create music. Some people work better with different tools. Just because a method works great for Autechre doesn't mean it will work great for you.

 

If you're writing a punk rock song with power chords in an ABAB format, you're composing in a very specific way. But that doesn't mean you can't be creative within that structure. Just because you can't be as creative as you like using piano rolls, doesn't mean that others can't.

 

These are just tools after all.

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i don't think it's the piano roll that's evil, it's the clip view arranger that's evil. copy/paste highway. i think it's extremely useful to see pitches in a vertical relation.

 

it's weird that the wealth of options in those programs is what kills the whole thing, it's like we need to be protected from the computer.

 

here's an interesting article on the subject: http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~denker/old/_A_bic..._the_mind_.html

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where is the 1.8 tutorial ??? i can't find it on their site ... blonde moment anxiety ..

 

also why does it say that the version will expire in november ,.... ?? .. does that mean we only have it for a month ... or is that when they pop up another beta or the finished thing or something .... i'm a regged user fS

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