Jump to content
IGNORED

An interesting lecture in London (human behaviour)


Dale

Recommended Posts

because if you think a system where everyone just works to get fed and watered with no direct reward scheme is sustainable or possible then you are just utterly retarded. its a nice idea from a book that sounds cool and would never, ever work. unless we had machines that could do all manual labour for us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 69
  • Created
  • Last Reply

because if you think a system where everyone just works to get fed and watered with no direct reward scheme is sustainable or possible then you are just utterly retarded. its a nice idea from a book that sounds cool and would never, ever work. unless we had machines that could do all manual labour for us.

Machine automation in a resource based economy, without money, can alleviate humans from repetitive, monotonous jobs. That's the whole point, technology is a tool that we can use to allow us to have more free time in the world.

 

If basic necessities are available, what will motivate us? Quite simply, the things we care about. Children who grow up in affluent environments in which food, clothing, shelter, nutrition, education and much more are provided still demonstrate incentive and initiative. On the other hand, overwhelming evidence supports the idea that malnutrition, unemployment, minimum wages, poor health, lack of direction, lack of education, homelessness, no appreciation of one's efforts, poor role models, poverty and bleak prospects for the future can and do destroy incentive and the drive to achieve.

 

I think the word extensional is important in regards to incentive and motivation.

 

In a resource based economy, when different nations share technology intelligently, it is extensional to everyone regardless of independent beliefs and national interests. Corporate systems, however, benefit owners and shareholders. When inventions serve the needs of all people, they will truly be extensional. When a bank lends money to an individual, there is a benefit but it comes at a cost called debt and obligation. Genuine extensionality does not exact a cost or toll of some kind. Extensionality at its most basic is an act of kindness one does without debt being incurred by the other person.

 

The more people become extensional to one another, the richer the civilization and the interaction between individuals become.

 

You have to think about this.. The air we breathe, clean water, sunshine, forests and nature, for the most part, support life without charge right? With good nutrition in a highly productive humane society, people will evolve a new incentive system. Without the need to work just to survive, there would be enough new things to explore and invent that the notion of people sitting around doing nothing seems absurd. The lack of incentive we see in our present culture happens when people dare not dream of a future that seems unattainable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest joshier

Just to lay down some basic underpinnings, poor parents with no hopes for their selves or children in the UK for example, often give their children less hope and aspirations that they can be successful. It is this kind of reoccurring behaviour that happens time and time again, whereas the flip side you have parents who do own businesses and are in the frame of mind that there is always a way (whether it be becoming successful or just earning lots of money).

 

Pessimism to me is a like a disease, it's really just a behaviour that's carried on and assumed by the siblings (where opportunity is there but it is ignored)

 

Regarding some points Bread made, lots of people lack motivation and I wonder what would happen if they really were able to live their life almost jobless, would they spend more time with their kids? families? would they try and benefit the world with all this given free time? I think it would be a lie to say they would. A lot of people lack self motivation and a lot of people to me seem like they want to work for someone - for someone to tell them what to do. You can't easily fix that because many people are stubborn.

 

Regarding Breads point that in a commercial environment there is no drive for 'scarcity' or lack of expenditure which is obviously true, every business needs as much money to survive and grow but let's not fool ourselves here; Businesses are people too so it always comes back around. The internet is a huge place in which these types of things are less obvious. Many services are free just so anyone can use them so they can gain market share. Any competent person would think uploading a video on the internet so other people can view it would cost, but it doesn't, so this just shows business isn't black and white pay & provide.

 

The recession has shocked many people and has made them consciously aware of their spending, which is a fucking fantastic thing. A lot of people don't realise how useful saving is and how much security it carries. The world is a 'buy this because you "need" it' society and there's no getting away from it, the trouble is that most people are led into this from common behaviour. It's OK for a women to have 30 different pairs of shoes because her friends do it and her mum always did. That was a perfectly adequate example because it's the same kind of trait and common belief that forces women to be self conscious and that by buying into products will alleviate that.

 

I saw an hour long documentary a year ago discussing the 1950/1960's car revolution where they explained what tactics the automotive industry first used to get people in the mindset that whatever car you drive reflects you. It's standard business practise put on a large scale. If this never happened we wouldn't be fooled into buying more expensive cars because they match what perfections we like.

 

The negative trait that comes with commercialism is that everything comes at a price and this in turn makes them hostile to any genuinely free service/product. It makes it harder for people who really are giving their work out for free. [as pointed out, this is changing on the internet].

 

So break down some of these social beliefs is probably best dealt with experience and education but what really can you do with stubborn people who don't want to learn? You usually can't so it's a fairly tough barrier to break because if the parents are like it, their kids will be too. My opinion? Start with better school education, one-to-one tutoring and all of that. I think it's one of the few possible ways.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest countchocula

hey bread, I make more money than you

 

IRL LOL.

 

 

On to the serious part. If I understand correctly zeitgeist followers no longer want a monetary system, but instead a resource based economy. What is going to stop corruption in a resource based economy? The people who behave corruptly in a monetary system are not just going to stop once the switch happens. In fact it would almost seem easier to be corrupt in a resource based economy. The people who have the basic resources to run society like steel, oil, wood etc.. will just horde it like they always have if not more so. Corruption is a natural human action. It is humans looking out for themselves and their own albeit usually overboard.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest ezkerraldean

If basic necessities are available, what will motivate us?

war, no doubt.

 

i don't see what would make this shiny future world peaceful. people aren't just going to stop being xenophobic once they're well-off.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just to lay down some basic underpinnings, poor parents with no hopes for their selves or children in the UK for example, often give their children less hope and aspirations that they can be successful. It is this kind of reoccurring behaviour that happens time and time again, whereas the flip side you have parents who do own businesses and are in the frame of mind that there is always a way (whether it be becoming successful or just earning lots of money).

 

Pessimism to me is a like a disease, it's really just a behaviour that's carried on and assumed by the siblings (where opportunity is there but it is ignored)

 

Regarding some points Bread made, lots of people lack motivation and I wonder what would happen if they really were able to live their life almost jobless, would they spend more time with their kids? families? would they try and benefit the world with all this given free time? I think it would be a lie to say they would. A lot of people lack self motivation and a lot of people to me seem like they want to work for someone - for someone to tell them what to do. You can't easily fix that because many people are stubborn.

 

Regarding Breads point that in a commercial environment there is no drive for 'scarcity' or lack of expenditure which is obviously true, every business needs as much money to survive and grow but let's not fool ourselves here; Businesses are people too so it always comes back around. The internet is a huge place in which these types of things are less obvious. Many services are free just so anyone can use them so they can gain market share. Any competent person would think uploading a video on the internet so other people can view it would cost, but it doesn't, so this just shows business isn't black and white pay & provide.

 

The recession has shocked many people and has made them consciously aware of their spending, which is a fucking fantastic thing. A lot of people don't realise how useful saving is and how much security it carries. The world is a 'buy this because you "need" it' society and there's no getting away from it, the trouble is that most people are led into this from common behaviour. It's OK for a women to have 30 different pairs of shoes because her friends do it and her mum always did. That was a perfectly adequate example because it's the same kind of trait and common belief that forces women to be self conscious and that by buying into products will alleviate that.

 

I saw an hour long documentary a year ago discussing the 1950/1960's car revolution where they explained what tactics the automotive industry first used to get people in the mindset that whatever car you drive reflects you. It's standard business practise put on a large scale. If this never happened we wouldn't be fooled into buying more expensive cars because they match what perfections we like.

 

The negative trait that comes with commercialism is that everything comes at a price and this in turn makes them hostile to any genuinely free service/product. It makes it harder for people who really are giving their work out for free. [as pointed out, this is changing on the internet].

 

So break down some of these social beliefs is probably best dealt with experience and education but what really can you do with stubborn people who don't want to learn? You usually can't so it's a fairly tough barrier to break because if the parents are like it, their kids will be too. My opinion? Start with better school education, one-to-one tutoring and all of that. I think it's one of the few possible ways.

 

Good post bro

Link to comment
Share on other sites

hey bread, I make more money than you

 

IRL LOL.

 

 

On to the serious part. If I understand correctly zeitgeist followers no longer want a monetary system, but instead a resource based economy. What is going to stop corruption in a resource based economy? The people who behave corruptly in a monetary system are not just going to stop once the switch happens. In fact it would almost seem easier to be corrupt in a resource based economy. The people who have the basic resources to run society like steel, oil, wood etc.. will just horde it like they always have if not more so. Corruption is a natural human action. It is humans looking out for themselves and their own albeit usually overboard.

There would be a transition phase for sure. Imagine clicking your fingers and waking up inside a resource based economy, the people who lived all their lives with money wouldn't understand, just as some of you don't understand the concepts behind the ideas I'm trying to get across.

 

Why would it be easier to become corrupt in a resource-abundant environment? If you want to take 5 washing machines instead of one, who are you fooling? Only yourself, because I can still go and grab another washing machine for myself, but you have to store all 5 and make sure you have the space available for all of them. Corrupt behavior just wouldn't be rewarded, so where is the basis for corrupt behavior? Once you eliminate the incentive to become corrupt, you'll find that most problems will be outgrown over time.

 

We need to outgrow this money system, because it isn't practical or efficient. Anyone here work in the services sector? Don't you feel a annoyed that your life is robbed by working for a corporate entity 9-5, 5 days a week? Are you not capable of doing more with your life? A resource based economy would allow people to excel and achieve what they want to do, because there would be no debt or servitude. Give me an example where corruption is rewarded in an abundant environment?

 

here's a great video about the system we live in.. remember, what makes sense to you? That's what you should be asking yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SE-VBXNHbWU

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So tell me, how does a resource economy work internationally? What happens when some countries want more of one resources than the other? How does fast and efficient global trade occur when there is no standard of value for anything? How do you get the entire world to adapt this system (you certainly can't just have one country do this if you want to conduct global trade. Sure you can trade goods for goods, but who wants to trade for anything when resources aren't scarce)? So far i've heard a lot of people kick around ideas of how great a resource economy sounds, but no one has any fucking idea of how it would work on a practical level or how to go about achieving this system other than a unified global revolution spearheaded by zeitgeist co.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So tell me, how does a resource economy work internationally? What happens when some countries want more of one resources than the other? How does fast and efficient global trade occur when there is no standard of value for anything? How do you get the entire world to adapt this system (you certainly can't just have one country do this if you want to conduct global trade. Sure you can trade goods for goods, but who wants to trade for anything when resources aren't scarce)? So far i've heard a lot of people kick around ideas of how great a resource economy sounds, but no one has any fucking idea of how it would work on a practical level or how to go about achieving this system other than a unified global revolution spearheaded by zeitgeist co.

If you are really interested in finding out more, I suggest you read through this:

 

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/The%20Zeitgeist%20Movement.pdf

 

This document goes into specific details in regards to what you want to know, how such a system can be implemented. First and foremost, the monetary system has to fail, which is currently happening on a global scale. Politicians and governments will try and maintain it, but with technological unemployment causing a major problem, this current system is not designed to work along side technological advances. It's not technology that's bad - by causing unemployment, it's the very system itself, which is money. 42Orange, what are your ideas on solving technological unemployment?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A) At a fundamental level, we are slaves to our DNA because we are programmed to propogate the species.

To an extent only. DNA does not trigger direct commands to carry out an action, the environment will influence your actions. I'll take that quote used:

Dr Robert Sapolsky, Professor of Biology and Neurology at Stanford University:

"Genes are rarely about inevitability especially when it comes to humans, the brain or behavior. They're about vulnerability, propensities and tendencies."

 

Take your Professor, put him in a fight or flight situation and see what his response is. The human tendency to survive (and to perform unthinkable actions to accomplish this) is programmed right into our DNA (btw, any professor that uses propensity and tendency in a sentence to mean two different things needs to revisit his thesauraus).

 

As to a resource-based economy, I'm assuming you're talking about something where people get out what they put in? We've tried that before. It's called communism, and though the idea is very nice, the reality is that due to our programming, it doesn't work on a large scale.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Straight off, the guy doesn't know what he's talking about:

As of the early 21st century the prevailing mechanism of virtually all economies worldwide is some

form of “Monetary System”.

What he actually means is that as of the mid 20th century, virtually all economies worldwide are based on fiat currencies.

 

Monetary systems have been around for a long long time, and aren't going anywhere. If you want to read something about the subject might I suggest Joseph Stiglitz, who actually knows what the fuck he's talking about when it comes to economics, and is also a big critic of the current system.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A) At a fundamental level, we are slaves to our DNA because we are programmed to propogate the species.

To an extent only. DNA does not trigger direct commands to carry out an action, the environment will influence your actions. I'll take that quote used:

Dr Robert Sapolsky, Professor of Biology and Neurology at Stanford University:

"Genes are rarely about inevitability especially when it comes to humans, the brain or behavior. They're about vulnerability, propensities and tendencies."

 

Take your Professor, put him in a fight or flight situation and see what his response is. The human tendency to survive (and to perform unthinkable actions to accomplish this) is programmed right into our DNA (btw, any professor that uses propensity and tendency in a sentence to mean two different things needs to revisit his thesauraus).

 

As to a resource-based economy, I'm assuming you're talking about something where people get out what they put in? We've tried that before. It's called communism, and though the idea is very nice, the reality is that due to our programming, it doesn't work on a large scale.

Communism has a monetary system, so it's bound to fail. An RBE is different because it has no currency or money.

 

I agree, our brain is hardwired to ensure we avoid danger where possible because we are pleasure seekers. However, in that fight or flight situation you have mentioned, something has happened within the environment to set about the fight or flight response. This is what I have been trying to say throughout the thread, that the environment triggers these biological responses, they don't just happen on their own - there has to be something in the surroundings which sets off the fight or flight reaction. If you can control the environment, abhorrent/corrupt behaviors can be prevented or outgrown.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Drahken

Its not that humans are born programmed to do bad things. We are born with free action, and it is inevitable no matter how glossy and happy and perfect our environment or society is for someone, somewhere to do something 'bad'.

I don't accept that we are born inherently "bad", it doesn't make sense and has no basis at all. If you have a system that does not reward bad behavior, why would someone carry out something that would be determined as "bad" in the first place if you are not gaining anything from the act? The monetary system we live in rewards corrupt behavior - this is an important point as to why people come out with what you have said, they haven't lived in another system before where abhorrent behavior is not rewarded, you're unfamiliar with it.

 

learn to read

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Straight off, the guy doesn't know what he's talking about:

As of the early 21st century the prevailing mechanism of virtually all economies worldwide is some

form of “Monetary System”.

What he actually means is that as of the mid 20th century, virtually all economies worldwide are based on fiat currencies.

 

Monetary systems have been around for a long long time, and aren't going anywhere. If you want to read something about the subject might I suggest Joseph Stiglitz, who actually knows what the fuck he's talking about when it comes to economics, and is also a big critic of the current system.

Try to avoid picking on points that are small and irrelevant, otherwise you might miss the point on things being explained to you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its not that humans are born programmed to do bad things. We are born with free action, and it is inevitable no matter how glossy and happy and perfect our environment or society is for someone, somewhere to do something 'bad'.

I don't accept that we are born inherently "bad", it doesn't make sense and has no basis at all. If you have a system that does not reward bad behavior, why would someone carry out something that would be determined as "bad" in the first place if you are not gaining anything from the act? The monetary system we live in rewards corrupt behavior - this is an important point as to why people come out with what you have said, they haven't lived in another system before where abhorrent behavior is not rewarded, you're unfamiliar with it.

 

learn to read

Try to learn how to write longer sentences to explain what you mean - saying "learn to read" doesn't get you anywhere

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest joshier

learn to read

Hear hear, we are civilised men, we needn't result to the silly short un-insightful insights. This is a great debate! Keep it clean fellow men.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Drahken

I don't really feel I need to. I don't see whats so hard to understand here, unless of course your arguing removing all emotion from the human experience.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't really feel I need to. I don't see whats so hard to understand here, unless of course your arguing removing all emotion from the human experience.

If I don't understand what you mean, or if I had previously misinterpreted something you typed, then let me know.. If you don't feel the need to, and I need to some how work it out myself without any more information from you, then I'm afraid I can't do much

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest countchocula

The thing is people don't become corrupt because of the monetary system. They would be corrupt in a resource system and there would even be corruption in your super resource system where everyone has what they need.

 

There will be people in this utopia who have everything they need and then some, but they will want more and if they can't get it they will take it from others. The monetary system does not reward people when they become corrupt. No one says hey good job for embezzling those retirement funds. They are rewarding themselves by doing it. It is the way things are.

 

I don't like the sound of this system where everything is peachy and okay and we have what we need. People need to learn suffering and pain because what happens when the system fails? People will be completely unready for it. This type of system scares me for that reason and because it sounds down right bland. What is the point of life if everything is safe and perfect.

 

Please watch those stories on the winners of the American lottery. They will confirm that even when people have everything they need and then some they still want more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest joshier

A lot of people have no self control as I mentioned previously, but there's things in place which almost encourage that behaviour. TV ads, ads everywhere.. it's making people want.

 

From day one 99.9% of kids will watch tv or something very similar, it will make them want things.. if they grow up like that that's what they will always believe unless shown otherwise. What we need done is some kind of realisation, but I think that's happening right now what with the recession. Those people who splashed away shit to buy new flat screen tv's are regretting it now. The old TV was more efficient but you bought into commercialism, you only have yourself to blame.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A) At a fundamental level, we are slaves to our DNA because we are programmed to propogate the species.

To an extent only. DNA does not trigger direct commands to carry out an action, the environment will influence your actions. I'll take that quote used:

Dr Robert Sapolsky, Professor of Biology and Neurology at Stanford University:

"Genes are rarely about inevitability especially when it comes to humans, the brain or behavior. They're about vulnerability, propensities and tendencies."

 

Take your Professor, put him in a fight or flight situation and see what his response is. The human tendency to survive (and to perform unthinkable actions to accomplish this) is programmed right into our DNA (btw, any professor that uses propensity and tendency in a sentence to mean two different things needs to revisit his thesauraus).

 

As to a resource-based economy, I'm assuming you're talking about something where people get out what they put in? We've tried that before. It's called communism, and though the idea is very nice, the reality is that due to our programming, it doesn't work on a large scale.

Communism has a monetary system, so it's bound to fail. An RBE is different because it has no currency or money.

 

I agree, our brain is hardwired to ensure we avoid danger where possible because we are pleasure seekers. However, in that fight or flight situation you have mentioned, something has happened within the environment to set about the fight or flight response. This is what I have been trying to say throughout the thread, that the environment triggers these biological responses, they don't just happen on their own - there has to be something in the surroundings which sets off the fight or flight reaction. If you can control the environment, abhorrent/corrupt behaviors can be prevented or outgrown.

 

Communism is based on communal ownership of goods and resources as well as the means of production. Resources are a form of "currency".

 

Who decides who controls the environment? You? Me? George Bush? You cannot control an environment, there are too many variables.

A fight or flight behavious is not corrupt, it is natural. We are not programmed to avoid danger because we are pleasure seekers, we are programmed to propogate the species.

 

 

Straight off, the guy doesn't know what he's talking about:

As of the early 21st century the prevailing mechanism of virtually all economies worldwide is some

form of "Monetary System".

What he actually means is that as of the mid 20th century, virtually all economies worldwide are based on fiat currencies.

 

Monetary systems have been around for a long long time, and aren't going anywhere. If you want to read something about the subject might I suggest Joseph Stiglitz, who actually knows what the fuck he's talking about when it comes to economics, and is also a big critic of the current system.

Try to avoid picking on points that are small and irrelevant, otherwise you might miss the point on things being explained to you.

If the guy starts off his argument with a point that is fundamentally wrong, what hope does the rest of his paper have? This is not a small and irrelevant point, it's part of the basis of his theory. This "social designer" isn't explaining shit except for the fact that he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Communism is based on communal ownership of goods and resources as well as the means of production. Resources are a form of "currency".

Currency is a medium of exchange. In an RBE, you are not exchanging resources for another resource between each other -- technology is optimized to deliver abundance for everyone, without needing to exchange my resource for your resource, it's just there to take if you need it. In a way, the very word "economy" in a resource-rich environment has no specific place in the definition itself.

Who decides who controls the environment? You? Me? George Bush? You cannot control an environment, there are too many variables.

A fight or flight behavious is not corrupt, it is natural. We are not programmed to avoid danger because we are pleasure seekers, we are programmed to propogate the species.

Computers will be used to manage resources. We need to make sure that the number of resources and materials are monitored by technology and are in accordance with the carrying capacity of the Earth's population. The governments today are an insult to human intelligence. You would have machinery that can monitor the soil, maintaining dynamic equilibrium via the output of nutrients and water into the soil when needed -- this is carried out by the machinery which measures this constantly. This is a form of governance in itself, without the need for human intervention. In this current system we live in, Government and industry will continue to assign more responsibility for decision making to intelligent machines. Today's machines handle trillions of bits of information per second, far more than any number of industrial or political decision-makers can handle. They can also constantly update and process information. Here's a great video where Jacque Fresco expands upon governments and laws in the system today:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbtbGcKiLiM

 

 

A slight tangent, but I just wanted to throw in this extra quote into the thread by Dr Norbert Wiener, one of the founders of cybernetics:

"It is a degradation to a human being to chain them to an oar and use them as a source of power, but it is an almost equal degradation to assign them to purely repetitive tasks in a factory which demands less than a millionth of their brain power".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.