Your ethics on sampling

[chim]

This is not really about copyright issues, but rather I'm interested in how you feel about using "clean" samples in your music, without much extensive editing or processing.

 

Say you've got a great couple of samples off a disk or library. Maybe a bunch of 4 bar loops that you just love.

Would you just chuck them into your new masterpiece, wrap it up and call it a day, or would you feel bad about it?

 

Do you think the end justifies the means, or is it more important that your creativity comes to good use?

 

Is it -your- music if all components are samples? How about sampling vocals?

 

How would you feel about releasing a song based entirely out of samples? How would you feel about someone else doing that?

And I'm not just talking tiny bits of sound, but entire loops off of "Sound library X" stuff.

 

I was pondering on this because I made this reggae song out of samples that sounds great, including lyrics and all that..

But it just doesn't feel like I did it. I played it to someone and they pretty much said, "This sounds great but you didn't make it"

I'm thinking about turning it into dubstep or something, keeping some of the samples, but removing

the foundation of the beat. I generally feel bad about using sampled beats, or using a melody sample as a key part of a song.

 

I mean, going DJ Shadow on samples, I respect that, but I think I get worried when it's too "chuck this on, chuck that on, okay that sounds good".. I guess I like a challenge and I like being creative. But I also like shit sounding good. Maybe sometimes the simpler way is better?

 

I also think I respect sampling more when you literally scavenge for samples in old music, films, rather than just using fresh, compressed beats and shit off of disks. Or the amen, tightenup etc.

 

exercise your democratic rights and speak your mind, people

[solarion]

I also think I respect sampling more when you literally scavenge for samples in old music, films, rather than just using fresh, compressed beats and shit off of disks. Or the amen, tightenup etc.

 

I agree with that. Old, obscure samples are okay to use without significant alteration because of the time you put into searching for them and cutting the certain bit to fit just right; whereas samples that are already cut and designed for something need to be messed up enough so that they'll be hard to recognize before they're fair to use.

 

If it sounds great off the disk and you really don't want to change it, then you make it as subtle as possible.

 

arbitary principles yay

[acid1]

I've done an album where i field recorded every sound in an album.

 

I've also done an album composed 100% with a virus and a machinedrum.

 

In summation, I just want to say its not the sample you use, its the motion in the ocean.

[joshuatxuk]

This is not really about copyright issues, but rather I'm interested in how you feel about using "clean" samples in your music, without much extensive editing or processing.

 

Say you've got a great couple of samples off a disk or library. Maybe a bunch of 4 bar loops that you just love.

Would you just chuck them into your new masterpiece, wrap it up and call it a day, or would you feel bad about it?

 

Do you think the end justifies the means, or is it more important that your creativity comes to good use?

 

Is it -your- music if all components are samples? How about sampling vocals?

 

How would you feel about releasing a song based entirely out of samples? How would you feel about someone else doing that?

And I'm not just talking tiny bits of sound, but entire loops off of "Sound library X" stuff.

 

I was pondering on this because I made this reggae song out of samples that sounds great, including lyrics and all that..

But it just doesn't feel like I did it. I played it to someone and they pretty much said, "This sounds great but you didn't make it"

I'm thinking about turning it into dubstep or something, keeping some of the samples, but removing

the foundation of the beat. I generally feel bad about using sampled beats, or using a melody sample as a key part of a song.

 

I mean, going DJ Shadow on samples, I respect that, but I think I get worried when it's too "chuck this on, chuck that on, okay that sounds good".. I guess I like a challenge and I like being creative. But I also like shit sounding good. Maybe sometimes the simpler way is better?

 

I also think I respect sampling more when you literally scavenge for samples in old music, films, rather than just using fresh, compressed beats and shit off of disks. Or the amen, tightenup etc.

 

exercise your democratic rights and speak your mind, people

 

A book could be written on the subject, and I'd volunteer. Personally I think obscurity dictates looping length to a degree, you could use a bars and bars of an unknown vinyl rip of a out-of-print bollywood record or African pop disc and get away with it. Might be a moral dilema though, it's like DJ Shadow made a brilliant record, but on a superficial level, you could say he's a white DJ using the work of unsung black and underground musicians.

 

If it's just looping, excellent layering is impressive. Otherwise, it's all about flipping it. The Field album was so cool because he blatantly sampled major artists and made the sound completely different. But you're worried about using samples without much thought, without really trying to tribute a certain genre or something (like Madlib's genre specific releases) then I guess there is a good reason to feel bad, especially if you're not editing it heavily.

 

But as far as thinks like cut-up breaks or chopped or pitched melodies, fuck it, to a certain point you're re-arranging it to the point where you making you're own music. What's the difference between a session drummer playing a specific rhythm and using the amen break? Why use a drum machine over sampled beats if the latter sound better?

[YEK]

nothing used before or really known makes yer music more creative

[Guest Adjective]

i usually only use drum loops but it always makes me feel a degree of guilt, even a sense of failure. mainly because i've used them because i failed to create a decent original groove. makes me feel a lot of respect for even mediocre drummers. the more i chop up a break the less badly i feel about it, but no matter what there is still some degree of guilt for using something that someone else created, captured, fine tuned, etc and then milking it, benefiting from it, knowing that all the credit would go to me.

[Silent Member]

I've sampled some breaks, but other than that I like to make my own samples. I've never used readymade loops or shit off sample cd's. Feels like cheating.

 

Just remembered I've sampled some obscure tapes and stuff, but I usually process the shit out of anything that comes from outside my own sound library.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Gocab

[Braintree]

nothing used before or really known makes yer music more creative

 

I wish there was an emoticon of a little guy shoveling bullshit.

[joshuatxuk]

Worst defense of sampling ever:

Timbaland interviewed on "Elliot in the Morning", 2007-02-02

 

============================================================

 

transcribed by Matt Westcott - comments and corrections to gasman@raww.org

 

 

 

Presenter: Timbaland is with us this morning - the CD "Shock Value", that's up

next for you. Interesting mix of people on it.

 

Timbaland: Yes. Lot of shocking news.

 

P: Let me ask you this. How hard is it- well, I mean, it's easy for you to, like

you said, create a beat. Is it, um- we were talking about it before you got

here. Is- If somebody is close to the same level as you are, is it

conceivable that two people could sit down and create something that's

pretty similar?

 

T: [long pause] You could have sampled something to similar, but you can't- In

our opin- Music today, you [look at] some old song, and it's like "hey,

that's how [it went], this song out today".

 

P: Right.

 

T: And what if they got it from that. And somebody says, "I've never heard that

song a day in my life." Music isn't nothing but sounds and notes that

repeats itself.

 

P: Do you feel like you get ripped off a lot?

 

T: Yeah. All the time, but I'm used to it now. But now I'm like "Hey, you love

me don't you." That's what I tell people. "You love me, I'm [all your

mine]".

 

P: Have you ever ripped anybody else off?

 

T: Er - I haven't *ripped* nobody else off. But have I sampled? Hell, yeah.

 

P: Right.

 

T: I didn't rip- go say "Hey I'm gonna steal your beat". I don't have to, I'm

too good. [laughs]

 

P: Now what is the- so what's with the- okay, I love it! - What's with the case

with these- with the Finnish guys, who say-

 

T: Finn- er...

 

P: From Finland, who say you stole their stuff?

 

T: I put it this way. 'Cause, that mess is so ridiculous, I can't really talk

about it because I'm in legal- legal discussions and whatever, but I'm gonna

tell you, if people- That's what I don't believe. Look at my face- I don't

know who they faces are.

 

P: Right.

 

T: The hell wrong with them? [laughs] That's all I can tell you.

 

P: Right.

 

T: It's from a video game, idiot! [laughs]

 

P: [laughs]

 

T: Freaking jerk.

 

P: So that's, so that's all in, tied up in court right now?

 

T: Yeah, 'cause it's like, my whole thing is, yeah, because don't say I stole

some- like, you act- like you just say- A sample, and stole, are two

different things.

 

P: Right. Give me the quick definition that splits those.

 

T: S- Stole is like I walked in your house, watch you make that beat, took your

pro tools and went to my place and gave it to Nells and said "Hey, I got this great song."

 

P: Right.

 

T: Is he crazy? I live in America. I don't even stay in Finla- I ain't gonna get

into it. Then sample is like, you heard it somewhere, and you just sample it.

 

P: Right.

 

T: But you didn't know, maybe you didn't know who it was by because it don't

have the credits listed.

 

P: Right.

 

T: So you just use it. Hey, I don't know, I like it, but I'm gonna use it.

Maybe somebody, you know, might well put a sample claim in, or, I don't

know. You know what I'm saying, but-

 

P: Right.

 

T: I like it, I don't have no researchin'- time is coming up when I got to turn

a record in.

 

P: Right.

 

T: So, that's what sampling is. That's not stealing, 'cause everybody sample

from everybody every day.

 

P: Right.

 

T: And that's what a sample is, like, it maybe [even needs a] credit, cause,

hey, I sampled it, I got it from a game. I don't know.

 

P: Right.

 

T: And you have a listen. And it say, C-64, Commodore 64. I don't know. You know

what I'm saying? So, I like it. I found it. I got sounds upon sounds upon

sound. I don't know what's public domain and what's not. Some stuff don't

say.

 

P: Right.

 

T: Some stuff say it, it says it.

 

P: So the stuff that's public, you just - "F- it, I'm gonna use it"?

 

T: Yeah, you can use it. It's like, I think Swizzy got sued one time for using

the Casio thing, in the Casio equipment that you buy. But who- well I think

they settled, because it's like "Yo, I brought 'em keyboard. I brought it.

They made it for me to use...

 

P: Right.

 

T: "It was a demo in there that I like, and I flip it a certain way - how you

gonna sue me? It's a demo. I brought - the demo."

 

P: Right.

 

T: "Don't - you can't sue me for buying what I b- I purchased this." You just

say "Hey, by the way, don't sample"- it's like, "Well why am I gonna buy the

keyboard?" You know?

 

P: In the world you live in, in terms of being a producer, does that kind of

stuff, all the behind-the-scenes legal stuff, does that go on a lot?

 

T: It go on a lot 'cause everybody want to come out of the woodwork, say like

"you done something. You stole this." Or, You- whatever. Whatever. Whatever.

Whatever. Come on man, I'm good.

P: [laughs]

Edited September 16, 2009 by joshuatxuk

[Silent Member]

haha. priceless

[Guest chax]

here's the thing right, most people don't have any ethics or morality in outright stealing 'sampling' other peoples music and calling it their own. it's all about their ego, popularity, money, time pressure, and lying and thinking to yourself 'you' created the music by adding reverb or something, i don't know. there is sampling in adding something to an original musical creation, and sampling something that becomes the main beat and medley of the song, where barely anything is changed or created. in my opinion i don't like something that is made entirely from samples, it feels like cheating to me and is not original music. people's perception of music is so different from others and reality, talking about 'remix culture' and ripping people off and girltalk and garbage, but it's really all about making as much money as possible, using any method available (which includes stealing other peoples music and calling it your own).

 

here's a documentary that just came out about the entire debate but i really don't agree with it or the 'conclusion':

 

 

http://www.ripremix.com/

 

it's very heavily biased towards bringing down copyright, intellectual property, socialism etc.

Edited September 16, 2009 by chax

[Velazquez]

I sample anything and its mama, and use that however I please, thank you.

[joshuatxuk]

here's the thing right, most people don't have any ethics or morality in outright stealing 'sampling' other peoples music and calling it their own. it's all about their ego, popularity, money, time pressure, and lying and thinking to yourself 'you' created the music by adding reverb or something, i don't know. there is sampling in adding something to an original musical creation, and sampling something that becomes the main beat and medley of the song, where barely anything is changed or created. in my opinion i don't like something that is made entirely from samples, it feels like cheating to me and is not original music. people's perception of music is so different from others and reality, talking about 'remix culture' and ripping people off and girltalk and garbage, but it's really all about making as much money as possible, using any method available (which includes stealing other peoples music and calling it your own).

 

here's a documentary that just came out about the entire debate but i really don't agree with it or the 'conclusion':

 

 

http://www.ripremix.com/

 

it's very heavily biased towards bringing down copyright, intellectual property, socialism etc.

 

 

Yeah. I watched this a couple months ago. I appreciated the criticism of the major record industry and their hypocrisy regarding copywright. It hightlights a lot of issues, had some good interviews and historical tidbits. That said, it's hipster porn providing an excuse for such douchebags to download mp3s. The solution is as extreme as the problem it's targeting. And fuck girltalk, where's the love for 2 many djs? I've outgrown mash-up but those guys are a lot better and have done it a lot longer.

[Guest theSun]

i don't usually use other peoples samples or songs but as long as you don't release it wtf is the harm?

[Guest emef]

i will take any sample i like from anywhere

have no qualms about it at all

i mostly take small bits

but occasionally big bits

biggest thing i've nicked was the whole intro from a film called 'bring it on'

for a track i put out called 'cheerleaders'

without that sample the track is nothing

i never gave using that sample a second thought

[kaini]

I sample anything and its mama, and use that however I please, thank you.

 

 

I sample anything and its mama, and use that however I please, thank you.

[vamos scorcho]

sample that shit

 

someday when i get into a beef with another artist i'm going to sample the sound of my hand smacking his girl's ass as we fuck

[Guest JohnTqs]

i will take any sample i like from anywhere

have no qualms about it at all

i mostly take small bits

but occasionally big bits

biggest thing i've nicked was the whole intro from a film called 'bring it on'

for a track i put out called 'cheerleaders'

without that sample the track is nothing

i never gave using that sample a second thought

 

kid606?

[joshuatxuk]

i will take any sample i like from anywhere

have no qualms about it at all

i mostly take small bits

but occasionally big bits

biggest thing i've nicked was the whole intro from a film called 'bring it on'

for a track i put out called 'cheerleaders'

without that sample the track is nothing

i never gave using that sample a second thought

 

kid606?

 

I remember that, "Pregnant Cheerleader Theme Song" was the name.

[Guest Tamas]

Personally, I would never use a straight loop of a drum beat or any other instrument really, but using each individual hit to sequence your own drums, or say, taking a sample of a synth sound in a song and using it to make another synth, is ok. I still think it takes away from the creative process, but if that's how you work, that's how you work.

 

The whole idea of becoming successful by taking loops and using them straight up in your music is a joke to me really, as anyone who's even slightly intelligent could steal a bunch of bits from a song and rearrange them in a way that would make them sound decent or danceable.

 

And man that timbaland guy sounds like a moron. It was painful trying to read that interview... =/ I guess that just goes to show you, how easy it is for some idiot to steal a bunch of loops and become successful off it.

[kaen]

do whatever you want imo

 

copyright is fucking bullshit

[Squee]

Copyright isn't bullshit. I would be pissed if someone stole something from a track I had made and then made a fortune from it (not that that's going to happen). So, what I do when I sample is that I change the sample so it can't be identified.

[Guest epsy]

fatboy slim-bad

amon tobin-good

[Guest chax]

I just got back from the world premiere of Copyright Criminals at the Toronto International Film Festival. The documentary deals with early hiphop and musicians that solely rely on sampling.

 

 

One of the people they interviewed at the beginning was either an author or a music journalist or something that basically said 'sampling is easy, uncreative, cheap, unoriginal, and shouldn't be looked upon with the same respect as people who entirely create their own music.' I'm paraphrasing but that's what he basically said. The documentary to me wasn't really biased in one direction, it fully explored the entire range of opinions, and wasn't overly biased hipster BS like Rip: a remix manifesto. There were so many parts of it I disagreed and agreed with, like how it takes little to no effort to take the most awesome parts of a bunch of different songs, change a few things, then take all the financial credit and recognition for other peoples music while screwing over the original musicians. Like if you could clear the samples then that's kind of rare but okay, or if you use some obscure music that nobody knows about I could see that working, or even taking like really small bits from things or disguise samples to become your own, but if your music is entirely samples and other peoples music then there are probably some copyright infringement issues. It's a grey area but you need to use common sense.

 

After the screening the directors took a few questions from the public, which was a complete disaster due to all the crazy drunk homeless people that were there and decided to ask questions. There were accusations of racism and total BS like "what does a honky like you have a say on all the black people?" Which at that point I started to yell at them not to even respond or to dignify that kind of question with a response, yet I think they still answered it because they didn't know what else to do and didn't know the guy was drunk. And all the questions after that were about racism, basically ignoring the majority of the documentary or what it was even about. I still don't understand how anyone had any racial problems with the movie. Security thankfully very quickly escorted the drunk hobos away after the questions were over.

 

After that there was a concert by Eclectic Method which really wasn't that great. They were doing live video remixing of music videos and songs with Clyde Stubblefield "The Funky Drummer" on drums, who they interviewed a lot in the movie. There was also an MC but I had no idea who he was. Anyways they either didn't rehearse enough, or there were other technical problems, because it didn't come together AT ALL. Like they kept on playing Beastie Boys - Integalactic over and over again, while the guy was rapping overtop of them rapping, then went into Queen - We Will Rock You and then Michael Jackson and it was just so hamfisted and stiff and even taking the best parts of songs nothing was really enjoyable, you could tell nobody in the audience was enjoying it, nobody was dancing or feeling it, just really bad all around. After more homeless drunk people started showing up (they're a plague in downtown Toronto) I decided to take off. Overall though the documentary was seriously well done, and I can't wait to watch it again.

[Guest chax]

One more thing I forgot to add was that I liked that they talked about the power of influence in music, and how basically all musicians influence each other without their knowledge. But there is a very fine that everyone should be aware of, in the music that influences you in creating an original and entirely new composition (which is difficult), and being influenced so much by a certain song that you outright sample it directly and then call it your own without any form of credit for the original musician (very easy to do). Those are two very different things and it seems like now more and more people are using the second method because it takes a lot less skill and is more fun and enjoyable.

Edited September 20, 2009 by chax