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Guest chax
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holy crap, i just noticed this. it might be tuplets after all, combined with a time signature change - or something: 

YLEb1hM.png

6 16th notes fitting into the space of 5 :wtf:  coincidence? i think not.

the plot thickens. 

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5 hours ago, usagi said:

 

unmatched atmosphere. it was so long ago when i first played it, it seems like another life, but it still evokes it anytime i hear the soundtrack.

 

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@IOS  assuming i am right about that tuplet stuff, it's pretty obvious how that last segment works - i mean, i have no idea how to analyze it in terms of time signature and shit but the "mechanics" of it is pretty simple:

when we get to the 5th beat of the last bar (the 5th quarter note i guess), we hear these tuplets - as i mentioned earlier, 6 of them (sextuplets i guess?) fit into the space of 5 16th notes (this way of putting it seems more accurate than what i previously said though).

whatever the time signature is at this point (5/16 maybe? idk, i suck at this), we're not in 6/4 anymore. and the pulse is now set to the tuplet grid, instead of the former subdvisions - hence the weird timing when we get back to the 1st bar. had the snare rush consisted of 10 hits instead of 8, it would be a different story, as the pulse would still follow the former grid with its 16th note subdivisions. 

all this to say: time sig pls

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1 hour ago, cichlisuite said:

unmatched atmosphere. it was so long ago when i first played it, it seems like another life, but it still evokes it anytime i hear the soundtrack.

 

I finished a playthrough last night. good times.

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1 hour ago, brian trageskin said:

@IOS  assuming i am right about that tuplet stuff, it's pretty obvious how that last segment works - i mean, i have no idea how to analyze it in terms of time signature and shit but the "mechanics" of it is pretty simple:

when we get to the 5th beat of the last bar (the 5th quarter note i guess), we hear these tuplets - as i mentioned earlier, 6 of them (sextuplets i guess?) fit into the space of 5 16th notes (this way of putting it seems more accurate than what i previously said though).

whatever the time signature is at this point (5/16 maybe? idk, i suck at this), we're not in 6/4 anymore. and the pulse is now set to the tuplet grid, instead of the former subdvisions - hence the weird timing when we get back to the 1st bar. had the snare rush consisted of 10 hits instead of 8, it would be a different story, as the pulse would still follow the former grid with its 16th note subdivisions. 

all this to say: time sig pls

i just realized this is rather confusing and self-contradictory. it's getting late though, i'll correct my mistake tomorrow. 

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, brian trageskin said:

had the snare rush consisted of 10 hits instead of 8, it would be a different story

i made a mistake btw, i meant 12 hits within the span of 10 16th notes (in 6/4). or 6 within the span of 5. 

19 hours ago, brian trageskin said:

whatever the time signature is at this point (5/16 maybe? idk, i suck at this), we're not in 6/4 anymore. and the pulse is now set to the tuplet grid, instead of the former subdvisions 

yeah, this is self-contradictory. if the pulse follows the tuplets (if it's outside the 16th note grid), it's not tuplets, it's just 16th notes at a different tempo. 

anyway i changed my mind about this. if these are tuplets and the tempo hasn't changed, what's the time signature then? so yeah, we're still in 6/4 and these are 16th notes, just at a faster tempo. i mean yeah, the new tempo is definitely based on a fancy subdivision (tuplets), and the composer didn't pick just any random tempo, but technically, these aren't tuplets. personally, i don't hear a different tempo though, i just hear a bunch of tuplets which are used in a deceptive manner.

now here's what i'd like to know: imagine there were only 6 snare hits instead of 8, what's the time signature then? considering that the tempo would technically remain the same and it would just be a bunch of tuplets in a different time sig. just out of curiosity. 

while i'm at it, am i even right in thinking that 6 hits within the span of 5 16th notes = tuplets at all? and if i am, are these sextuplets?

Edited by brian trageskin
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13 minutes ago, brian trageskin said:

if the pulse follows the tuplets (if it's outside the 16th note grid)

i meant if the pulse follows the tuplets instead of the 16th notes. 

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Posted (edited)
On 6/1/2022 at 2:25 AM, brian trageskin said:

@IOS  assuming i am right about that tuplet stuff, it's pretty obvious how that last segment works - i mean, i have no idea how to analyze it in terms of time signature and shit but the "mechanics" of it is pretty simple:

when we get to the 5th beat of the last bar (the 5th quarter note i guess), we hear these tuplets - as i mentioned earlier, 6 of them (sextuplets i guess?) fit into the space of 5 16th notes (this way of putting it seems more accurate than what i previously said though).

whatever the time signature is at this point (5/16 maybe? idk, i suck at this), we're not in 6/4 anymore. and the pulse is now set to the tuplet grid, instead of the former subdvisions - hence the weird timing when we get back to the 1st bar. had the snare rush consisted of 10 hits instead of 8, it would be a different story, as the pulse would still follow the former grid with its 16th note subdivisions. 

all this to say: time sig pls

Let's go through this step by step.

There are three bars in that piece, repeating several times.

The first two bars are 6/4 - hands down.

The third bar, whilst it could also be considered 6/4, actually concludes with an 8x 16th note snare rush that is slightly faster than the previously heard tempo; so the snare rush doesn't occupy the space of 8 16ths (aka 2/4) but something less than that. So the last bar can be thought of as: 4/4 + [some duration we haven't calculated yet, which is slightly less than 2/4].

So far we have:

[ 6/4 ] [ 6/4 ] [ 4/4 + x ]

Let's focus on the ending. As you very correctly pointed out, there are 6 sixteenths that fit within 5 sixteenths of the original tempo - a 6:5 ratio. This also means that, one sixteenth note in that snare rush occupies 5 / 6 = 0.8333333 of a sixteenth in the original tempo. (I know it's a bit weird calling them both 16ths. Think of it as follows: you have a clock/watch which for some reason ticks a bit faster than a normal clock. If we use the 0.83333 ratio of our example, we could say that each 'second' in your watch lasts 0.83 seconds of your normal watch.)

Now the question is, how many 16ths does the snare rush occupy? The answer is: 8 (slightly sped up sixteenths in the snare rush) * 0.833333 = 6.6666666 sixteenths (in the original tempo of 150bpm)

So the final time signature, assuming a constant tempo of 150bpm (if I remember correctly), is:

[ 6/4 ] [ 6/4 ] [ 4/4 + SATAN/16 ]

Hoping this helps

 

Edited by IOS
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oh yeah btw, i forgot to mention that if you were to notate this, the last segment implies that what came before it is not in 6/4, indeed. i chose not to mention this because that wasn't my point, i was simply pointing out that the "cheat code" to understand what goes on is to think of the snare rush as 16th notes at a faster tempo - a tempo that is based on a fancy subdivision of the grid.

tbh i didn't really read your explanation though, my brain is jelly rn as a result of the neighbour being a total pain in the ass (we had to call the cops). i'll do so tomorrow. thanks for taking the time to do this though, i appreciate it. satan/16 lol

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yep, sounds about right. 4/4 + santa/16 = depp won. suck on that, amber  :trollface:

on a more serious note, thanks for this very clear explanation. if i were to notate this though, i wouldn't go through the trouble of indicating the time exact time sig like you did, i would simply indicate a tempo change starting on the 5 of bar 3 and specify that a 16th note = 6:5 or some shit lol (no idea how to notate this properly). so plain old 6/4 with a tempo change. anyway i know you only did this exercise cause i was asking about time sigs, i'm sure you too would choose my option over this one lol.

not that i've ever notated anything anyway, i wouldn't know how. as you can see, i don't even really know how time sigs work. quite cringe from someone who's interested in music theory but in my defense, i never planned to learn "rhythm theory". initially, i was only interested in learning harmony. but as time goes by, i'm getting more and more frustrated to be so ignorant as to how time sigs work, since rhythm dictates everything in music. but i digress.

you haven't answered my other questions though, let me refresh your memory: 

On 6/1/2022 at 8:42 PM, brian trageskin said:

imagine there were only 6 snare hits instead of 8, what's the time signature then?

the snare rush would be a bunch of sextuplets in 5/16, correct? or is there a subtlety i don't get about tuplets? 

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Posted (edited)

one last thing, i totally get why you felt it necessary to break down the time sigs like you did. my wording wasn't clear and i wrote some confusing shit that was theoretically wrong as a result. to be more specific:

On 6/1/2022 at 1:25 AM, brian trageskin said:

whatever the time signature is at this point (5/16 maybe? idk, i suck at this), we're not in 6/4 anymore.

"we're not in 6/4 anymore" implies that beats 1 2 3 4 of bar 3 are in 6/4, which is total nonsense. what i actually meant is that bar 3 is actually 2 separate bars, so neither are in 6/4 (no shit). from that perspective, that is. obviously i changed my mind afterwards.

On 6/1/2022 at 8:42 PM, brian trageskin said:

so yeah, we're still in 6/4 and these are 16th notes, just at a faster tempo.

implying that bar 3 has 2 different tempos: normal (beats 1 2 3 4) and faster (5 6). 

Edited by brian trageskin
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17 hours ago, brian trageskin said:

yep, sounds about right. 4/4 + santa/16 = depp won. suck on that, amber  :trollface:

on a more serious note, thanks for this very clear explanation. if i were to notate this though, i wouldn't go through the trouble of indicating the time exact time sig like you did, i would simply indicate a tempo change starting on the 5 of bar 3 and specify that a 16th note = 6:5 or some shit lol (no idea how to notate this properly). so plain old 6/4 with a tempo change. anyway i know you only did this exercise cause i was asking about time sigs, i'm sure you too would choose my option over this one lol.

 

not that i've ever notated anything anyway, i wouldn't know how. as you can see, i don't even really know how time sigs work. quite cringe from someone who's interested in music theory but in my defense, i never planned to learn "rhythm theory". initially, i was only interested in learning harmony. but as time goes by, i'm getting more and more frustrated to be so ignorant as to how time sigs work, since rhythm dictates everything in music. but i digress.

you haven't answered my other questions though, let me refresh your memory: 

the snare rush would be a bunch of sextuplets in 5/16, correct? or is there a subtlety i don't get about tuplets? 

 

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heck, pressed the wrong keys and submitted an empty reply. Here's my reply:

If you had just the 6 16th notes over a space of 5 16ths then: the time signature would be 5/16, and the 6 equal note durations placed within it would form a tuplet; if you wanted to call it a sextuplet, I guess that should be fine, but I think a more appropriate thing to do would be to put a "6:5" ratio indication in the notation.

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Agreed about the notation approach. The easiest way would be to write:

        150bpm                                                             180bpm                                                         

6/4 ||: /.../.../.../.../.../... | /.../.../.../.../.../... | /.../.../.../.../.../... :||

aka fix the time signature, modify the tempo (and not the other way around, which is what I did earlier). I guess there are times when it's more efficient the other way around

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