chim Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 i've been doing abit of reading on counterpoint and fugue etc, and it all feels so complex. I want to create interesting melodies with this technique, and try and incorporate some key changes etc with proper cadences. any tips you could give me? maybe my request is a little vague but hey.. i'm curious what you know of this fine art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcinsu Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 just so you know, your music will sound like baroque/classical music if you follow exactly the rules. I've taken 3 semesters of counterpoint. I think understanding melodic motion, and how melodic motions of melodies interect is important... but if you follow rules like no parellel fifths, always resolve the leading tone etc... youll just get stuff that sounds like bach. its good to do it, and learn the concepts, and what they imply, and then use the ideas in looser, more modern ways, imo actually, this reminds me, I have to write a 4 part fugue before april 3rd for my portfolio, or I wont graduate. bllah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulie Walnuts Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Yeah, modal counterpoint is certainly a little inflexible... I've got a good book on it I was reading over christmas by Arnold Schoenberg, but it is largely convention, not science... Now serial composition... There might be a potential for that in electronic music... Works unsuprisingly well with the 303's step sequencer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest art school faggot Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 counterpoint. not worth the effort, in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cakeface Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 I think it's very much worth the effort. Counterpoint is a very loose term, it can be as complex as a bach fugue or as simple as a dodgy canon in a popsong where vocal lines are overlapped. If you want to learn it you should buy (or download- nobody's judging) the well tempered klavier by bach as he is the undesputed master of counterpoint. Then get your hands on a score (obviously this is on the condition that you can read notated music which will greatly help, nay speed up your understanding of the fugal texture, if you play the piano then this is even more helpful again) and follow along to the the music, you will notice that the thematic material is quite limited in quantity and you can see several (often only one) motives being treated in various interesting ways. Also counterpoint will NOT make your music sound baroque unless you choose for it to sound that way, apart from the fact that bach was one of the most chromatic composers in the history of music and quite frequently broke/ bent the rules of functional harmony, shostakovich has written in the prelude and fugue form with a much different harmonic result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcinsu Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 Also counterpoint will NOT make your music sound baroque unless you choose for it to sound that way, apart from the fact that bach was one of the most chromatic composers in the history of music and quite frequently broke/ bent the rules of functional harmony, shostakovich has written in the prelude and fugue form with a much different harmonic result. If he uses counterpoint rules, found in books on counterpoint, like it sounds like he wants to read, then yes it will. he said he wants to do proper cadences etc. if he follows what the books say, it will sound baroque. I do agree, there is non baroque counterpoint, which I said before... there are concepts etc that transfer over, but he should realize if he follows just the rules from the book, itll sound baroque. and yes, bach broke the rules. but if he follows the rules from the book, itll sound baroque. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulie Walnuts Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 tbh, simple countpoint's something I still really don't understand... I mean, the idea is you're writing horizontally, and not thinking in chords - but to me I just can't separate that from thinking vertical, and I'm always writing in or implying chords even if I don't consciously think about it, I'm sure I am... So I think it's when you strip away all the rules it just stops making sense to me... It's wierd, I'm wierd... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chim Posted March 12, 2006 Author Share Posted March 12, 2006 well I'm not talking about "proper" baroque cadences etc. I'm just thinking of ways to use the concept of counterpoint in modern music. The idea of creating really interesting and complex, maybe even intelligent, melodies sounds like an awesome idea to me. I like imperfect cadences alot more than the regular way-too-classical-sounding "perfect cadences". iv - V - i doesn't even sound pleasing in my ears. i did some reading up on counterpoint a few months or so ago and did some interesting experiments. i did two tracks back then based on what i learned, first one is piano with a 4/4 beat and the second is a more simple/playful electronic music track. http://media.putfile.com/chasepiano http://media.putfile.com/beepbux counterpoint seems to be alot about taking a quite simple sequence and manipulating/multiplying it, adding a higher octave version of the same sequence, adding it a little later than the fundamental melody. i can play the piano but am really bad at reading notes.. i'm gonna take piano lessons pretty soon though actually to leanr that stuff properly, my family's piano just got tuned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcinsu Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 alright, I misunderstood you. Well, I still think its good to study baroque counterpoint. So much to learn. Then take those concepts (like I said in my original post) and apply them to more modern ideas. I'm sure you could find books on 20th century counterpoint, but I'm a firm believer you should start at the beggining, and work your way up. What use is learning nonfunctional harmony, for example, if you don't have functional harmony under your belt, as a reference? So, yeah, go learn traditional counterpoint, understand it, and then move on to applying the ideas to more modern materials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cakeface Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 Also counterpoint will NOT make your music sound baroque unless you choose for it to sound that way, apart from the fact that bach was one of the most chromatic composers in the history of music and quite frequently broke/ bent the rules of functional harmony, shostakovich has written in the prelude and fugue form with a much different harmonic result. If he uses counterpoint rules, found in books on counterpoint, like it sounds like he wants to read, then yes it will. he said he wants to do proper cadences etc. if he follows what the books say, it will sound baroque. That is a fair point, which is one of the reasons i recommended studying the wtk as opposed to a book on functional harmony such as might be used in a stylistic studies lecture. Another master of contrapuntal texture which i would recommend to anyone with an interest is bela bartok as his harmonies are anything but functional and cadence points are pretty much abandoned while the beauty and intricacy of skilful counterpoint is still maintained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest contrapunctus Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Listen to Die Kunst Der Fuge (The Art of Fugue) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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