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1 hour ago, Tim_J said:

as always i don't get it... so, if a girl who's my friend tells me something like, oh that guy is hot and i say to her, nvrmn he's gay... wtf am i doing wrong??? and if i look at a guy and say hey man you're so fucking hot wanna go on a date and he replies me back sorry dude i'm straight...

if i make a joke saying that filipinos eat too much rice, i'm wrong, but just the other day the filipinos on my ship complaint that the meals they're being served don't have enough rice... :psyduck:

Now i bet everyone wants to call me a retard but they won't... :^) 

 

Neither of those examples are using the word “gay” in a negative sense. That’s simply describing a person’s characteristic. If you saw someone doing something incredibly stupid (like Trump opening his mouth to speak), and you said “oh man this is going to be fucking gay”, that’s a little insensitive, don’t you think so?
 

A generalization about Filipinos eating a lot of rice is simply a generalization. Generalizations can be positive, negative, or neutral, but usually it is better to avoid generalizations when describing a specific person. For example, “Filipinos eat more rice, on average, than English people” is a fine use of that particular generalization. On the other hand, let’s say you meet Tom, who happens to be Filipino. You and Tom get along so you invite him for lunch. “Oh you’re Filipino, you must like rice”, is probably not the best use of that particular generalization, because you’re trying to apply it to an individual. 

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honestly i think it's as simple as "don't be a dick"

using retard etc despite knowing that enough people get pissed off at hearing it is a dick move. these aren't always just "sjw's begging to be offended" or whatever, it's also parents of disabled children, people who care for disabled people, etc.

for them to hear you call your friend who put shaving cream on his balls the same word that gets used to degrade their child sucks.

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I agree, but I also think it's sort of good to diffuse these words somewhat, and using them in more casual, innocuous ways does do that.  We give words far too much power.  It's not the words that should have the power, it's the way we use them that should count.  Of course "don't be a dick" should be the general rule... though I can even kind of appreciate people being dicks every now and then.  Keeps things interesting.  So does getting offended on occasion.  Jesus I can't even recall the last time I was offended by anything... I get razzed by stupid bullshit I see around me all the time.  Maybe I have offended-envy.  Someone offend me pls.  Sean pls.

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I was listening to a Patrice O’Neal radio show called The Black Phillip Show sort of recently. Patrice would be drawn and quartered these days, but I hadn’t laughed that hard in a while. Comedy was better without all of the babysitters with medieval witch hunt fantasies. 
 

I think people let the idiot in the White House get the best of them by deciding its better to not laugh at all than to laugh at something even slightly off-color. In doing so, people have abandoned a very healthy outlet for daily life’s frustrations. 

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1 hour ago, Zephyr_Nova said:

We give words far too much power.  It's not the words that should have the power, it's the way we use them that should count. 

Words create social institutions (institutions here can be both informal - such as customs and norms, and formal, such as entities created by the government, like a judicial system), and these social institutions create the objective reality that we operate in. So using words in a casual, innocuous manner, creates a real possibility that these become norms, and we're back at the start of this conversation.  You should check out a book called "The Social Construction of Reality".

Let's put it another way - is there a way to use the word "gay" to mean "inferior" in a casual, innocuous manner, that doesn't at the same time, imply that homosexuals are inferior?

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5 hours ago, chenGOD said:

Let's put it another way - is there a way to use the word "gay" to mean "inferior" in a casual, innocuous manner, that doesn't at the same time, imply that homosexuals are inferior?

Yes.

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lol

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5 hours ago, chenGOD said:

Let's put it another way - is there a way to use the word "gay" to mean "inferior" in a casual, innocuous manner, that doesn't at the same time, imply that homosexuals are inferior?

It can be definitely be looked at that way.  Or it can just be used as another nothing word that's meaning has changed over time.   When I hear it used there's usually a sense of irony about it (using childish slang rather than something more... mature).  It's one of these words that's like a relic from childhood, when no one was taking these things seriously.

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ugh I mentioned to a girl I talk to on IG that I had just dloaded the new Louis CK (it was a natural follow on from our convo that was joking about everything being CANCELLED and I said "speaking of CANCELLED..")

And she instantly SWITCHED and was saying she'd never watch it and he is definitely a predator of Weinstein's level etc etc. At one point went down the 'power dynamic' road and said something like 'no man could ever know the fear a woman feels when walking down a dark alley at night and sees another person approaching'

oh fucking please

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As a man I just love walking down a dark alley at night and seeing another person approaching.

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ikr, it really gets the adrenalin going. makes me feel ALIVE

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7 hours ago, chenGOD said:

Words create social institutions (institutions here can be both informal - such as customs and norms, and formal, such as entities created by the government, like a judicial system), and these social institutions create the objective reality that we operate in. So using words in a casual, innocuous manner, creates a real possibility that these become norms, and we're back at the start of this conversation.  You should check out a book called "The Social Construction of Reality".

Let's put it another way - is there a way to use the word "gay" to mean "inferior" in a casual, innocuous manner, that doesn't at the same time, imply that homosexuals are inferior?

Sure, but as someone with egalitarian ideals one should also be careful not to be too much of a buzzkill if you really want to influence people instead of just showing off moral superiority

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3 hours ago, caze said:

Yes.

Demonstrate.

 

3 hours ago, Zephyr_Nova said:

It can be definitely be looked at that way.  Or it can just be used as another nothing word that's meaning has changed over time.  When I hear it used there's usually a sense of irony about it (using childish slang rather than something more... mature).  It's one of these words that's like a relic from childhood, when no one was taking these things seriously.

It used to be even worse, as in there was less awareness around the impact of the use of the word to mean inferior.

This is the exact process of socialization that is described in the book I was talking about - through the use of it in everyday life, it becomes a social institution. "It's not serious" - except that many people (not you) do actually think that being gay is inferior, which leads to incidents like what happened to Matthew Shepard, or things like conversion therapy being real.

 

1 hour ago, darreichungsform said:

Sure, but as someone with egalitarian ideals one should also be careful not to be too much of a buzzkill if you really want to influence people instead of just showing off moral superiority

Yeah I'm not trying to be a buzzkill (failing miserably at that I guess), nor am I in any way morally superior - I make fuck ups all the time. It's an ongoing learning process for everyone I think.

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3 hours ago, hello spiral said:

ugh I mentioned to a girl I talk to on IG that I had just dloaded the new Louis CK (it was a natural follow on from our convo that was joking about everything being CANCELLED and I said "speaking of CANCELLED..")

And she instantly SWITCHED and was saying she'd never watch it and he is definitely a predator of Weinstein's level etc etc. At one point went down the 'power dynamic' road and said something like 'no man could ever know the fear a woman feels when walking down a dark alley at night and sees another person approaching'

oh fucking please

I also think that comparing louis to weinstein is fucking ridiculous by the way. I'm not even sure louis did much wrong besides be a little weird - asking people if you can jerk off in front of them out of the blue is just weird. By all accounts, he never restrained anyone or anything like that. I also think that people way overstate his power at the time - he was a writer at SNL, hadn't had any commercial success as a stand-up, etc.

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1 hour ago, chenGOD said:
1 hour ago, darreichungsform said:

Sure, but as someone with egalitarian ideals one should also be careful not to be too much of a buzzkill if you really want to influence people instead of just showing off moral superiority

Yeah I'm not trying to be a buzzkill (failing miserably at that I guess), nor am I in any way morally superior - I make fuck ups all the time. It's an ongoing learning process for everyone I think.

I can relate. I didn't necessarily mean you were a buzzkill here, just generally speaking. I think that critically reflecting upon social norms and questioning them can always turn you into a potentially difficult conversation partner / buzzkill to the point that people don't like the ideas you are promoting because they are annoyed. Which is counter productive. Um, kinda like Zeffolia sometimes, no offense to him

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one time I was at blockbuster looking at movies with my friend and she suggested something but I turned her down saying “no way that looks gay.” I could tell her feelings were hurt and she meekly asked me to not say that. She was a newer friend and I was used to saying gay with my old homies. I would soon learn she was a lesbian. Anyway, I was like 12 years old and I have not used gay pejoratively since. I’m 38. It’s not that hard. 

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2 hours ago, chenGOD said:

Demonstrate

Demonstrate how? We're talking about a hypothetical situation. Words can have different meanings depending on the context. It's up to you to demonstrate that someone who used the term in the former, as you say innocuous manner, also means some other meaning. You can infer this, erroneously or not, but one thing doesn't imply the other. You could ask them, and they might say that yes, the also think gay people are inferior, or they might say that no, one thing has nothing to do with the other.

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43 minutes ago, caze said:

Demonstrate how? We're talking about a hypothetical situation. Words can have different meanings depending on the context. It's up to you to demonstrate that someone who used the term in the former, as you say innocuous manner, also means some other meaning. You can infer this, erroneously or not, but one thing doesn't imply the other. You could ask them, and they might say that yes, the also think gay people are inferior, or they might say that no, one thing has nothing to do with the other.

You said it was possible to use "gay" as an equivalent for inferior that somehow also doesn't imply that homosexuals are inferior. Please demonstrate how that is possible.  As gay is a synonym for homosexual, the implication in using it in that manner is that homosexuals are also inferior, whether or not the user intended it. This has real world consequences.

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this thread has brought out some of watmm’s finest brains

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@Alcofribas - Wasted on the sexual transgressions of gingers.

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@cwmbrancity his worst transgression is being a ginger

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@Alcofribas and a balding ginger.

soz to the baldies for the association here. 

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16 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

You said it was possible to use "gay" as an equivalent for inferior that somehow also doesn't imply that homosexuals are inferior. Please demonstrate how that is possible.  As gay is a synonym for homosexual, the implication in using it in that manner is that homosexuals are also inferior, whether or not the user intended it. This has real world consequences.

"Your argument is gay, and by gay I mean bad, not homosexual."

There. If you were to infer that the speaker of such a sentence was implying that homosexuals are inferior it would be an invalid assumption on your part. Someone might erroneously infer your imagined implication, but it doesn't follow logically from the statement itself, it doesn't imply such a thing at all, because words can have different meanings in different contexts, it's the meanings of words that are important not the collection of letters that make them up. In the UK cigarettes are called fags, it similarly doesn't follow that someone asking someone else for a fag implies they think gay people are inferior because fag is also a derogatory term for a gay person.

It's true that people can take things the wrong way and be offended by things, and maybe people should take that into account more often when they use language, especially in certain social contexts, but none of that means that your implication is valid, it's a completely separate argument.

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i love idm :smile:

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