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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, caze said:

"Your argument is gay, and by gay I mean bad, not homosexual."

gay = bad

gay = homosexual

therefore

homosexual = bad

 

c'mon dude, it's simple math...

Edited by Tim_J

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6 hours ago, hello spiral said:

ugh I mentioned to a girl I talk to on IG that I had just dloaded the new Louis CK (it was a natural follow on from our convo that was joking about everything being CANCELLED and I said "speaking of CANCELLED..")

And she instantly SWITCHED and was saying she'd never watch it and he is definitely a predator of Weinstein's level etc etc. At one point went down the 'power dynamic' road and said something like 'no man could ever know the fear a woman feels when walking down a dark alley at night and sees another person approaching'

oh fucking please

I have been in that conversation before, and it never went well at all.

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4 minutes ago, caze said:

"Your argument is gay, and by gay I mean bad, not homosexual."

There. If you were to infer that the speaker of such a sentence was implying that homosexuals are inferior it would be an invalid assumption on your part. Someone might erroneously infer your imagined implication, but it doesn't follow logically from the statement itself, it doesn't imply such a thing at all, because words can have different meanings in different contexts, it's the meanings of words that are important not the collection of letters that make them up. In the UK cigarettes are called fags, it similarly doesn't follow that someone asking someone else for a fag implies they think gay people are inferior because fag is also a derogatory term for a gay person.

It's true that people can take things the wrong way and be offended by things, and maybe people should take that into account more often when they use language, especially in certain social contexts, but none of that means that your implication is valid, it's a completely separate argument.

So you are saying that gay is bad? Why do you think gay is a synonym for bad? 

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1 minute ago, chenGOD said:

So you are saying that gay is bad? Why do you think gay is a synonym for bad? 

Because it is, this is a fact about the English language.

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Don’t have the time to go thru 40 pages to find if a repost

 

 

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I use the n word but not to mean black people by any means

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, caze said:

Because it is, this is a fact about the English language.

what???

Gay is a term that primarily refers to a homosexual person or the trait of being homosexual. The term was originally used to mean "carefree", "cheerful", or "bright and showy"

 

nvrmnd...

Edited by Tim_J

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3 minutes ago, Alcofribas said:

I use the n word but not to mean black people by any means

this is a fact about the English language.

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i couldnt care less if someone uses gay the same as they use the word bad. a lot of words people use have lost their meaning and can be used for different contexts. as long as someone doesnt actually hate gay people, even if they use it the same as the word bad im fine with it

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but i think the n word can be used without being derogatory... it's like, yo bro sup?

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1 minute ago, MIXL2 said:

this is a fact about the English language.

science is cool

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Just now, MIXL2 said:

this is a fact about the English language.

nah, it takes more than one person to create a new meaning for a word. he should try his new word out in the wild and see if it catches on.

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3 minutes ago, Tim_J said:

but i think the n word can be used without being derogatory... it's like, yo bro sup?

i think it can be used without being derogatory. i personally wouldnt but it is possible

 

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1 hour ago, caze said:

Because it is, this is a fact about the English language.

My man, you’re either being deliberately obtuse, or your education has sorely failed you. 
 

https://www.stonewall.org.uk/sites/default/files/tackling_homophobic_language_-_teachers_guide.pdf

Quote

When used with a derisive attitude (e.g., "that was so gay"), the word gay is pejorative. While retaining its other meanings, its use among young people as a general term of disparagement is common.[6][41]This pejorative usage has its origins in the late 1970s, with the word gaining a pejorative sense by association with the previous meaning: homosexuality was seen as inferior or undesirable.[42] Beginning in the 1980s, and especially in the late 1990s, the usage as a generic insult became common among young people.[6]

This isn’t a difficult concept. 

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Posted (edited)

So, did anyone catch the new Louis CK special? 


oops meant to post this in the Ck thread my bad

 

Edited by Hugh Mughnus
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Posted (edited)

I remember the first time I heard another kid use the word "gay" disparagingly against another kid in grade 4.  Kid A (ha) said "Joel is gay," and I thought he was saying he was excessively jolly (which was true).  

Edited by Zephyr_Nova

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I'm gay as a bitch

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22 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

My man, you’re either being deliberately obtuse, or your education has sorely failed you. 

Seriously? You're the one being obtuse here. The meaning of language is defined by usage, you may not like the fact that gay has become a synonym for bad/lame/etc., but it has, it wasn't my idea, it's been like that for decades. This isn't a difficult concept to grasp.

Whether people should use the word this way is a completely separate argument to whether a separate meaning has evolved or not, and what that separate meaning does or doesn't entail. I'm neither advocating nor defending it's use, just pointing out the flaws in your sloppy reasoning.

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Right, gay is a synonym for bad, and has been for some time. Gay is also a synonym for homosexual. The implication (as described in the PDF I linked) is that using gay to mean bad is homophobic, because the origin of that usage of the word arose with the idea that being homosexual was somehow inferior. 
 

These two points are linked together, I fail to see how you can’t understand this. By continuing to use gay as a pejorative, you are continuing to associate homosexuality with being inferior. It doesn’t matter if you mean it or not, that’s how the word is interpreted. 
 

If we substituted caze for gay, would you understand it any better?

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Posted (edited)

i've never in person heard anyone use the term gay to mean simply bad. i've heard it used to mean bad in a way that is directly related to homosexuality in some form or implication, never divorced from it. never.

maybe that's just the way it is where i am, idk. but if someone says something is faggy or gay, they're distinctly talking about it's a thing a homosexual would do/like/etc and is therefore bad because of its relation to homosexuality/LGBTQ culture/associated cliches/etc. 

Edited by auxien

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17 minutes ago, auxien said:

i've never in person heard anyone use the term gay to mean simply bad. i've heard it used to mean bad in a way that is directly related to homosexuality in some form or implication, never divorced from it. never.

maybe that's just the way it is where i am, idk. but if someone says something is faggy or gay, they're distinctly talking about it's a thing a homosexual would do/like/etc and is therefore bad because of its relation to homosexuality/LGBTQ culture/associated cliches/etc. 

At my place in NL it gets used to imply something is bad or stupid

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7 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

Right, gay is a synonym for bad, and has been for some time. Gay is also a synonym for homosexual. The implication (as described in the PDF I linked) is that using gay to mean bad is homophobic, because the origin of that usage of the word arose with the idea that being homosexual was somehow inferior. 

And as I've pointed out, that doesn't make any sense. It is not a logical implication at all. That's just not how language or meaning works. The origins of the words aren't relevant either, as Louis points out in the clip above, kids don't even know what homosexuality is when they start using the word gay as a pejorative for things completely unrelated to homosexuality. Words have a life of their own after they get created, their origins are interesting, but not necessarily relevant to the meanings they take on.

Quote

By continuing to use gay as a pejorative, you are continuing to associate homosexuality with being inferior.

Huh? I don't use gay as a pejorative, where did you get that idea?

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It's one of these words that I think has a lot of subjective meaning attached to it for everyone.  For me it was definitely its own category distinct from bad or stupid or ____.  Like 8 year old me wouldn't have considered holding hands to be stupid or bad, but I would have considered it "kind of gay."  Or if some whiny kid kept dying in mario kart and shrieked "gaaaaaay" it was being used more for that grating "aaaa" sound to indicate frustration in a way that the word "dumb" or "stupid" wouldn't.  The word "lame" also works well for this, but indicates a slightly higher level of maturity, which the person using it in that moment surely lacks.... so it wouldn't work as well imo.  But yeah, most people would not be thinking of any homosexual connotation in those instances, anymore than they'd be thinking of joy when they use it to describe someone else's sexual preferences.

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6 minutes ago, caze said:

as Louis points out in the clip above, kids don't even know what homosexuality is when they start using the word gay as a pejorative for things completely unrelated to homosexuality.

i definitely knew calling something gay was directly linked with homosexuality/homosexual culture/cliches/etc when i was a child and heard it used pejoratively. i may not have known every single aspect of what made something particularly related to it, but i knew it was because of homosexual cliches and i knew it was bad because of that. 

11 minutes ago, caze said:

Words have a life of their own after they get created, their origins are interesting, but not necessarily relevant to the meanings they take on.

of course. and sometimes the previous/original(ish) usage is directly relevant. i'd argue that's obviously the case here with gay (and also with the word retard) because both of those words also currently still mean the other thing that they're related to. 

18 minutes ago, thumbass said:

At my place in NL it gets used to imply something is bad or stupid

whole different world there, basically. different language and dunno if y'all are saying 'gay' in English or not, but i'm not even going to try with other language issues related. hard to keep up with just one 🙂

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The general you, not you specifically. 
 

That is exactly how language and meaning evolve, as explained by Berger and Luckmann in The Social Construction of Reality, as well as through Popper’s Three Worlds. 
Kids don’t know what homosexuality is, but they are socialized into using gay as a pejorative. Gay also means homosexual, and the association is made that gay=bad therefore being gay is bad. This is a simple syllogism right? 
 

Your only argument is that the person saying it didn’t mean it. But again, the question is why does gay (homosexual) mean bad? The answer is because of the rise of homophobia in the 50s-80s, and socializing the word gay to mean inferior. It’s an orthodox response to a heterodox idea that challenges the norm (being gay challenges masculine ideals in the West). You might also have heard it described as “othering”, which is to identify an out group as “other” than the norm. 

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