chenGOD Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 what would therapy do besides waste even more money? I'm not convinced sociopaths like him can be rehabilitated. This. So what is this debate about now exactly? In my opinion, it's "Keep a man imprisoned for life even though he's a maniac" vs. "Kill him and save tax dollars". I suppose it could also be "Killing a person is immoral" vs. "Saving money/Not giving a fuck about psychopathic fucks". I think it's so fascinating how different the United States users are from the rest of the world on this subject. I consider myself an incredibly liberal person, but I'm for killing this guy, since we know for a fact he did it. Yeah you want to kill someone because he killed someone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugene Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 who knows, he may be rehabilitated. that's actually simple but a very good point..there's always some kind of a chance. basically you can never say that some is inherently evil and nothing will change it.. just make the man do some kind of a job to pay for his own living costs in prison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
essines Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 just make the man do some kind of a job to pay for his own living costs in prison as far as i know this does happen. could happen more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murve33 Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 what would therapy do besides waste even more money? I'm not convinced sociopaths like him can be rehabilitated. This. So what is this debate about now exactly? In my opinion, it's "Keep a man imprisoned for life even though he's a maniac" vs. "Kill him and save tax dollars". I suppose it could also be "Killing a person is immoral" vs. "Saving money/Not giving a fuck about psychopathic fucks". I think it's so fascinating how different the United States users are from the rest of the world on this subject. I consider myself an incredibly liberal person, but I'm for killing this guy, since we know for a fact he did it. Yeah you want to kill someone because he killed someone? I thought I already went through this earlier. I want to wipe him off of the face of the earth so he cannot bring misery to anyone else. He is a waste. Or I half-joked, throw him on a deserted island (he'd probably escape). SO, What is the point in keeping this person locked up forever? Anyway, I just cannot see where you're all coming from. You feel that "a human being is a human being and who are we to end his life?" But by this logic I don't see how we have the right to send this person to prison, or how we have the right to punish anyone (as a nation/government). who knows, he may be rehabilitated. Yes, but who knows, he might never be rehabilitated. We wasted our resources/money on him and nothing positive happened. just make the man do some kind of a job to pay for his own living costs in prison Yea, that sounds fine. I forgot about this possibility. I suppose I'm for this over anything, besides trying to fix the prison system (I don't know how one would even start that though). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murve33 Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Financial costs to taxpayers of capital punishment is several times that of keeping someone in prison for life. Most people don't realize that carrying out one death sentence costs 2-5 times more than keeping that same criminal in prison for the rest of his life. How can this be? It has to do with the endless appeals, additional required procedures, and legal wrangling that drag the process out. It's not unusual for a prisoner to be on death row for 15-20 years. Judges, attorneys, court reporters, clerks, and court facilities all require a substantial investment by the taxpayers. Do we really have the resources to waste? Well, there goes all of my argument. You Europeans/Canadians/Australians win I guess. You converted me. Well, given that the above quote is true, I agree with you. Here's a link http://deathpenalty.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=0010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hexagon son Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 how the fuck could you kill your two year child? they are by far at teir most amusing then. the screaming that goes on when i put the pyjamas on my 2 year old and the things he says just make me laugh. kids are fucking great. happy to be a father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zephyr_Nova Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 While I'm all for humane treatment and compassion whenever possible, the "human life = human life" argument doesn't sit with me at all. There are very few people out there who would kill another person for pleasure, and removing someone like that from the equation vs. killing a kid to get back at an ex-lover is not at all the same thing. It's hardly even comparable... let alone killing a murderer vs. putting a black guy in prison for smoking a joint. That's not even in the same ballpark. That girl did nothing to warrant getting killed, whereas her dad stabbed her to death and gloated about it. Innocent victim, wrong place at the wrong time vs. cruel sociopath who derived enjoyment out of the suffering of someone else. Yes, they're both human, but they are not at all equal. One is violent and a major threat to the wellbeing of others, the other is innocent and had the potential to live a good life. There are many examples of killers who have been imprisoned, or even had "life sentences" only to be released later and kill again. A skilled sociopath is going to be good at acting rehabilitated, and will likely go on to continue hurting others despite doing jail time for X number of years, and they'll probably be better at it than before after years of therapy (since they'll have a better grasp on human psychology + lots of time to reflect on how to better cover their tracks). Normally I wouldn't get involved with a debate like this because I don't want to get caught up in it for several more posts and actually get emotionally invested in it... but I'm drunk, so fuck it. If the sober me wants to opt out of it tomorrow, so be it. So yeah... I am in support of rehabilitating people when possible, but I have to admit that in some cases it is better to simply eliminate someone who is a serious threat to others rather than risk having them become a greater risk further down the road. That said, I'm not pro death penalty on the basis that a lot of people do end up being put to death who are innocent, or who have killed for reasons other than malice. But I do think the death penalty is justifiable under some circumstances. The problem is that the system that determines it is flawed and not always just, and that is a major problem that makes capital punishment hard for me to stand behind. If I believed all judges and juries were competent, without bias, and good intentioned, then maybe I could support the death penalty. I do think it would have been a good thing if John Wayne Gacy or Albert Fish or _____ had been put to death before they had the opportunity to kill X number of other people who did nothing to deserve it. Do I think people like that can be rehabilitated at this point in time? No. Though perhaps 30 years from now neuroscience will be at a point where there is hope for even the most vicious sociopath. Anyway... I think Murveman had some good points that perhaps weren't being acknowledged by some of those on the other side of the debate. That's probably what prompted me to respond... Anyway, I'm sure I'll regret getting involved in this debate tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Adam Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 While I'm all for humane treatment and compassion whenever possible, the "human life = human life" argument doesn't sit with me at all. There are very few people out there who would kill another person for pleasure, and removing someone like that from the equation vs. killing a kid to get back at an ex-lover is not at all the same thing. It's hardly even comparable... let alone killing a murderer vs. putting a black guy in prison for smoking a joint. That's not even in the same ballpark. That girl did nothing to warrant getting killed, whereas her dad stabbed her to death and gloated about it. Innocent victim, wrong place at the wrong time vs. cruel sociopath who derived enjoyment out of the suffering of someone else. Yes, they're both human, but they are not at all equal. One is violent and a major threat to the wellbeing of others, the other is innocent and had the potential to live a good life. Well that sociopath still has a potential to live a good life too. Even in prison. He might change and not be violent and a major threat to the wellbeing of others. Also there's nothing good at all what would come from killing him. I don't even understand why this disscusion had started since it's obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braintree Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 I'd rather he be tortured than put to death. shame on you man, and all of you who wished pain on this guy. how could you wish that on somebody? he has done a terrible thing, but torture will not bring that girl back. it's obvious that this man has deep psychological problems. He needs help, not punishment. I actually think he should be locked in an anechoic chamber with no interaction with the outside world. Sometimes, I think that serial killers and the like are glitches in our species. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest abusivegeorge Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 I'd rather he be tortured than put to death. shame on you man, and all of you who wished pain on this guy. how could you wish that on somebody? he has done a terrible thing, but torture will not bring that girl back. it's obvious that this man has deep psychological problems. He needs help, not punishment. I actually think he should be locked in an anechoic chamber with no interaction with the outside world. Sometimes, I think that serial killers and the like are glitches in our species. Like a missing pixel in Tron? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murve33 Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 I don't even understand why this disscusion had started since it's obvious. Lol! It's obvious that it's not obvious. I agree with everything you said Zephyr, you said everything I wanted to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rixxx Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 I think what we should all take from this is that there is no true answer. The ethics to this are in a horribly grey area and even with statics there are always going to be issues with either side. I leave you with some Stephen Fry. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPZed8af9RI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Adam Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 I don't even understand why this disscusion had started since it's obvious. Lol! It's obvious that it's not obvious. Lol what do you mean. As far as I understand the thread is about whether this man should be killed or not. What's not obvious here? Killing him wouldn't make any sense at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murve33 Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 I leave you with some Stephen Fry. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPZed8af9RI LOL AMERICANZ ARE FAT! Anyway, I assume our high numbers have to do with our Iron Fist on drugs, and as they said, our bizarre 3 Strikes system. Lol at the baseball joke, I've always thought that myself. The whole business thing they talked about at the end was interesting. Maybe our government doesn't want to lighten the system because of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salvatorin Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 I have these crazy thoughts come up every once and a while...like when I read zephyr nova's statement. I immediately thought..."well, what if a person's disposition is erasable?." I thought about that as well after writing it. The day when we can completely rewire a person's brain and eliminate those negative traits altogether probably isn't too far off. In which case, I suppose there can be a good use for any brain no matter how damaged it once was. Of course that opens a whole other can of worms... former sociopaths become future slaves, tools to be used how the justice system sees fit? Most ethical systems seem to regard an individual's freedom of will as untouchable, somehow...putting murderers in prison or even killing them to punish them. The logic is like this: "you used your consciousness to destroy another's life, therefore you have forfeited your life." The punishment (if put in prison for life) is having your consciousness remain, but your life limited (or if you are put to death, your consciousness destroyed). If the logic went a little more like: "you used your consciousness to destroy another's life, therefore you have forfeited your consciousness," well...as zephyr nova said, a whole new can of worms...or more like can of ZOMBIES is opened. Zombification (which may or may not be even possible with current technology) is just about the most ethically messy punishment conceivable. Altering an individual's identity throws human rights out the door. Yet, I feel it is probably on the horizon. There would probably be two overlapping spectrums of institutions fiddling with your head...those trying to reform you, and those trying to use you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murve33 Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Debated capital punishment in class today. It's weird how many people (Americans I guess) would rather torture a person who did bad than just kill them. I was for the death penalty earlier in this thread (5 months ago), but changed my mind. Never was for brutally torturing a rapist though (well, at least government run torturings). It's still so strange to me that America is SO divided on this subject, whilst Europe/Canada/Australia aren't. I also learned, that in Saudi Arabia, the death penalty is done with a sword. But they do it a lot less than America. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hautlle Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 I leave you with some Stephen Fry. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPZed8af9RI LOL AMERICANZ ARE FAT! Anyway, I assume our high numbers have to do with our Iron Fist on drugs, and as they said, our bizarre 3 Strikes system. Lol at the baseball joke, I've always thought that myself. The whole business thing they talked about at the end was interesting. Maybe our government doesn't want to lighten the system because of this. They won't change the system because there is far too much money being made from incarcerating people in America. Private prisons = private profits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneToThirtySix Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Maybe make the guy view snuff videos until he offs himself, save money on the injections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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