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In the Leyland Kirby - "Eager to Tear Apart the Stars" thread in new releases, an interesting side topic came up, which I felt deserved its own thread. There was some discussion over the value of the physical packaging, making the art more than only the music. Purlieu made a very salient point in arguing for the validity of the physical release over the digital only.

 

I think the digital release could, potentially, lend to a certain laziness in terms of appearance and packaging of music. Some might argue that the musical content is all that matters, and fair enough if that's all that they care about, but many artists have taken advantage of the physical means to make the most of it. FSOL's 192 page Dead Cities book, the delicate transparent pages of Sigur Rós' ( ), countless DIY releases in original hand-made packaging. Can anyone think of examples in the digital age? The only one that springs to mind as being particularly effective is the huge stash of photos that came with Underworld's Riverrun series, and to be honest I didn't think too much of them. Either way, I think this matters. It elevates the music beyond just background noise, into a true art form where appearance and theme are important too. I think it would be sad if that were to go. Coupled with the fact that I don't like sitting at the computer too much really, it gives me a headache and makes me feel a bit detached from the world. It's nice to sit somewhere else and browse through a booklet or admire some CD art that hasn't been printed from my Epson printer. These things, these are the physical value.

 

I agree 100% that when the artist includes something more, it adds to the artistic value of the piece - Aphex Twin's - Drukqs packaging even for the vinyl (though ultimately I got rid of the box when moving overseas) would constitute a fine example. I too have spent many hours admiring artwork in packaging. I disagree though that the packaging is required to move the music beyond background noise. If anything, the physical packaging relegates the music more to a background noise - your attention is diverted from the music onto the physicality of the packaging. It's nice and all, but honestly, how many times do you sit down and run the pages of Sigur Ros' ( ) through your fingers?

As to digital equivalents - there will obviously at present not be anything the same - due to the limitations of representing sensory input in a digital medium. However there have been alternatives presented - where you get videos as a digital bonus, links to interactive content and so on.

Purlieu mentioned not enjoying sitting in front of his computer - I don't think this is a really valid argument, unless you hold the physical artwork every time you listen to the release? Additionally, aren't you supposed to feel a bit detached from the world when listening to music? Surely it should take you to somewhere different from your current physical reality? When tablet devices become ubiquitous, or thinking further out, when full sensory interaction with digital is possible - that will alter your ability to interact with digital media further.

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I think what he means by not enjoying sitting in front of a computer is...a physical product that you have to go locate in a room, carefully open and place onto a playback device...creates a real spatial intimacy between the listener and the music, in a truly physical way. Depending on the format, maybe you have to flip the cassette or change the side of the LP. This, again, creates a tangible experience...a ritual, if you will...that is simply nonexistent with digital media. Either you call up a file or playlist via a directory or you press a couple buttons on an iPod - both options reduce the listener/music ritual to nothing more than changing the temperature on your thermostat or starting the microwave.

 

I'm not saying it's impossible to enjoy music without a physical medium involved, but for me and my tastes - I totally agree with Purlieu here. Hell, even if I'm sitting at a computer and that's the only way I can listen to a certain piece of music for the first time...I will actually press play and just close my eyes for a while. I've always felt like this was why Autechre include a few seconds of silence before the opening track on their album...it shifts that instant gratification idea to the side for just enough time to put the focus SOLELY on the music. I guess placement would be the golden word here.

 

Anyway, it's going to be different for everyone. Someone else here who enjoys the portability and freedom of playing albums on an iPod while they walk down city sidewalks will get just as much out of their music as I do sitting on my bedroom carpet playing with my cats or reading a paperback while an LP spins a few feet away. I don't think the digital age will ever fully remove physical formats for music - even if physically released music becomes something less mainstream, being held onto by indie labels or artists who happen to have the money to drop into doing it themselves. There will always be someone like me, or Purlieu here, who will prefer to hold something in their hands before they listen to it.

 

As for deluxe packages of albums and big thick coffee table books and stuff like that - I think those things are really cool for the right releases, but I don't think I need anything more than an LP jacket to appreciate albums as art and not simply albums. Again, that's personal preference talking, but I think there's actually a lot of flawed thinking going around these days where...labels want to succeed, and feel the need to give exponentially more "incentives" to listeners buying their product, which in turn manifests as...bonus tracks, deluxe packaging, etc. When did releasing an album with good music on it not add up to being enough? I find this is a real issue I am forced into dealing with myself, as my own music comes under the second-guessing of labels releasing it, and while it's cool to have places that want to do big deluxe packages for things, it shouldn't be the default go-to for a label worried about there being not enough interest in the album. On the other hand, though, I can't help but agree with the mass consensus that because of the internet, music and art have now become interchangeable with any other form of instant-gratification digital thing. The commonness of fast internet speeds, streamability, downloads, tags, everything connected and accessible and within a moment's reach...these things have all irreparably damaged music by making it this disposable thing. "Oh look so and so has a new album out. Lemme go download it. Yeah that's nice." and then a week later, if it didn't blow your mind, you've already left it behind, or deleted it, because the same thing has happened again. I'm sure this kind of outlook is probably pretty pessimistic of me, and I apologize...but I do really truly feel like that beloved intimate space between the listener and the music is completely forsaken by digital media.

 

In short - turn off your computer, turn off your cellphone. Have a drink, maybe some alcohol if you like. Smoke a cigarette or some weed. Wait until you have time in your day to devote to doing this. Take full advantage of comfortable furniture, low lighting, and a decent stereo speaker or set of headphones. Think about the notion that nothing else matters at this precise moment except you and this new experience you're about to have. Will it be cool? Will it suck? Will you ever want to do it again? That's part of the fun, yeah, but you owe this much to the people who brought it to you to give this music the chance to work its own special magic. For me, this has always been a wonderful learning experience, and now I'm sitting here at the other end of about 1000 pieces of vinyl and a few hundred CDs and cassettes...and I don't see myself slowing down anytime soon!

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What about selecting your piece of music and then walking away from the computer? I have mine hooked up to a decent set of speakers here, and wirelessly to the stereo in the living room.

What if you could replicate the actual sense of touching a record when you select it digitally? your hand reaches out to pull the record from the shelf.

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Guest Greg Reason

Music with depth and subtlety will mean more than music to me regardless of the format, it becomes an atmosphere, a sensation in the air around you and in your nerves. That said, good visuals add a lot to the experience and I do treasure a lot of albums for the lavish packaging. And funnily enough yeah I do go back and flick through these things fairly regularly, even if I'm not listening to that particular release.

 

And of course there are things like all the handmade Coil items that mean something different altogether, not just for how scarce or valuable they are but because the people who made that music actually assembled this themselves, on their kitchen table or study desk, wrote the titles and messages, did the drawings, glued down the collaged pictures they cut from photocopied books, packed it up with the little letters printed from their home computer and mailed at their local post office.... That's next level, that's a tangible connection with the artists and in the case of artists as eccentric and brilliant as Coil that means a hell of a lot to a person like me.

 

So there are a few ways to take the digital revolution..... I think that for the most part it's a fantastic thing, in that it toppled the established heirachy and put the major labels in their place. There are things that we will miss but I'm sure that every artist that does this for love rather than money will think of the most effective and appropriate ways to present their music and will deliver it in that manner if only for their own assurance.

 

For me that means putting out free downloads so everyone has access to the audio but also putting out a general physical release and a special, hand crafted version. Those are the options I want from the artists I listen to and I feel like I'm obligated to do the same for people who appreciate what I make. I think everyone will get to that on their own terms... Some people simply don't care for the physical packaging and were throwing away CD covers years ago to put all their disks in a CD wallet... To each their very own.

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Ewww putting CDs in wallets - too easy to scratch them. I've whittled down my CD collection to 300, and hope to get rid of them all as soon as possible. Such a pain in the ass to move internationally - my vinyl is still in South Korea, where I will have to go and rejoin it. Luckily I was never a serious collector of vinyl, I have about 150 pieces left after giving away about the same amount to a friend who DJs.

Handmade packaging is something else altogether - that's kind of a very real connection, as you said.

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What came to my mind is that if you look into the past you would notice similar ideas about recorded music(vynil+other older formats) VS live music compared to your ideas about digital music stored in PCs or iPods VS original physical release. People thought that the music thing is not the same, that somehow they´re losing something and that the recorded music can be enjoyed just by a small group of crazy wierdos or so.

 

My opinion is that digitally stored music can have something in itself as well. It still have its physical basis (you have it in real computer, real mp3player, you still have to turn the thing on) although yes, there are no papers with artwork to it. One can say that it contains this futuristic feeling (widely used in cyberpunk novels or sci fi art) that you experience while you´re, for example browsing folders on your external hdd, but, truth is, that most of nowaday digital music listeners don´t give a damn about that.

 

You were talking examples, I would mention the idea of Gescoms Minidisc thingie...

 

a tangible experience...a ritual, if you will...that is simply nonexistent with digital media

What about other experiences that are, on the other side, existent with digital media? All that digital art themes... OK, thing is that you´re maybe not so much into computers and this kind of stuff, but for a lot of people it is considered a great thing. For some it is even some kind of fetish (think of cybergoths for an instance, btw. don´t want to call you a fetishist if you are one).

 

I love digital art but yeah, holding a metal tape or a sleeve of a metal album cd and I am going nuts :biggrin: .

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CD\s and packaging definitely has a special value to me for many of the reasons explained already, but I still end up transferring the files to my mp3 player and computer for ease of use. I remember having to carry the 100 CD carrying packs around and THAT'S not a good way to do it. ipod is great. Either way I appreciate the packaging and physical item as a whole and so I want to get them for all I can.

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Music with depth and subtlety will mean more than music to me regardless of the format, it becomes an atmosphere, a sensation in the air around you and in your nerves. That said, good visuals add a lot to the experience and I do treasure a lot of albums for the lavish packaging. And funnily enough yeah I do go back and flick through these things fairly regularly, even if I'm not listening to that particular release.

 

And of course there are things like all the handmade Coil items that mean something different altogether, not just for how scarce or valuable they are but because the people who made that music actually assembled this themselves, on their kitchen table or study desk, wrote the titles and messages, did the drawings, glued down the collaged pictures they cut from photocopied books, packed it up with the little letters printed from their home computer and mailed at their local post office.... That's next level, that's a tangible connection with the artists and in the case of artists as eccentric and brilliant as Coil that means a hell of a lot to a person like me.

 

So there are a few ways to take the digital revolution..... I think that for the most part it's a fantastic thing, in that it toppled the established heirachy and put the major labels in their place. There are things that we will miss but I'm sure that every artist that does this for love rather than money will think of the most effective and appropriate ways to present their music and will deliver it in that manner if only for their own assurance.

 

For me that means putting out free downloads so everyone has access to the audio but also putting out a general physical release and a special, hand crafted version. Those are the options I want from the artists I listen to and I feel like I'm obligated to do the same for people who appreciate what I make. I think everyone will get to that on their own terms... Some people simply don't care for the physical packaging and were throwing away CD covers years ago to put all their disks in a CD wallet... To each their very own.

 

The only issue with the "free downloads with a physical release for people who want to buy one" is that from a label's perspective, this is basically an impossible scenario for anyone who wants even break even on costs spent to produce the physical release. The reality is, most will grab the free version, whatever that is, and a few die hards will go for the physical stuff, but both cannot coexist in a financially feasible way. This point holds especially true for any kind of lavish packaging that is more expensive to produce. Granted, you said that artists are typically in it more for love than money, which is true in a lot of cases, but like James Kirby himself said in the Caretaker thread - the goal is usually to not LOSE money...I mean, where is the artist then?

 

Beyond that, the real crux of my point lies in the fact that since 2006, I have actually been lucky enough to make a living by self-releasing/selling my own music every month or so on my website and mailing list. I can't explain it...even though I do make exponentially more music than the average musician, so there's enough to propel a full business with it, it just snowballed somehow and now it pays my bills. Does that mean I don't do it for love? Not at all, it means I do it for love AND money, which a lot of people would probably find some disdain for as a lifestyle. There's no shame here though...whatever happened to those days from the Renaissance where artists weren't told they were "selling out" just because some Austrian lord commissioned them to paint him or to write a symphony for a party he threw. I honestly wish more artists would find a living, meager or otherwise, in the notion of "Will work for food". Someone famous once said, if you can do something well, never do it for free...

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Music with depth and subtlety will mean more than music to me regardless of the format, it becomes an atmosphere, a sensation in the air around you and in your nerves. That said, good visuals add a lot to the experience and I do treasure a lot of albums for the lavish packaging. And funnily enough yeah I do go back and flick through these things fairly regularly, even if I'm not listening to that particular release.

 

And of course there are things like all the handmade Coil items that mean something different altogether, not just for how scarce or valuable they are but because the people who made that music actually assembled this themselves, on their kitchen table or study desk, wrote the titles and messages, did the drawings, glued down the collaged pictures they cut from photocopied books, packed it up with the little letters printed from their home computer and mailed at their local post office.... That's next level, that's a tangible connection with the artists and in the case of artists as eccentric and brilliant as Coil that means a hell of a lot to a person like me.

 

So there are a few ways to take the digital revolution..... I think that for the most part it's a fantastic thing, in that it toppled the established heirachy and put the major labels in their place. There are things that we will miss but I'm sure that every artist that does this for love rather than money will think of the most effective and appropriate ways to present their music and will deliver it in that manner if only for their own assurance.

 

For me that means putting out free downloads so everyone has access to the audio but also putting out a general physical release and a special, hand crafted version. Those are the options I want from the artists I listen to and I feel like I'm obligated to do the same for people who appreciate what I make. I think everyone will get to that on their own terms... Some people simply don't care for the physical packaging and were throwing away CD covers years ago to put all their disks in a CD wallet... To each their very own.

 

The only issue with the "free downloads with a physical release for people who want to buy one" is that from a label's perspective, this is basically an impossible scenario for anyone who wants even break even on costs spent to produce the physical release. The reality is, most will grab the free version, whatever that is, and a few die hards will go for the physical stuff, but both cannot coexist in a financially feasible way. This point holds especially true for any kind of lavish packaging that is more expensive to produce. Granted, you said that artists are typically in it more for love than money, which is true in a lot of cases, but like James Kirby himself said in the Caretaker thread - the goal is usually to not LOSE money...I mean, where is the artist then?

 

Beyond that, the real crux of my point lies in the fact that since 2006, I have actually been lucky enough to make a living by self-releasing/selling my own music every month or so on my website and mailing list. I can't explain it...even though I do make exponentially more music than the average musician, so there's enough to propel a full business with it, it just snowballed somehow and now it pays my bills. Does that mean I don't do it for love? Not at all, it means I do it for love AND money, which a lot of people would probably find some disdain for as a lifestyle. There's no shame here though...whatever happened to those days from the Renaissance where artists weren't told they were "selling out" just because some Austrian lord commissioned them to paint him or to write a symphony for a party he threw. I honestly wish more artists would find a living, meager or otherwise, in the notion of "Will work for food". Someone famous once said, if you can do something well, never do it for free...

 

This is an ongoing argument I've been having with my label mates. They both voted for the "pay what you want" option but I've been insistent in at least selling the digital releases at $5. It's worked for the Neotropic album we released a few weeks ago.

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i agree with the 'never do it for free' business! I mean if you wouldn't feel alright asking somebody the price of a McDonalds meal for something you've worked on for months or more, and have been developing probably for years, then what are you wasting your time for! I mean, you pay a taxi like $15 to go 4 miles! And i think wanting to make music as a lifestyle, (not just as the thing you do instead of going out with friends on weekends) also means you've got to be diciplined and practice and focus, etc, and if nobody feels that pressure music is just going to get shittier! I'd imagine this is preaching to the choir though.

 

As far as high-price physical vs low/free digital goes, what about digital downloads for like 4 or 5 $ per album and then an option to get a seperate physical product that maybe includes like 3 albums, and a bunch of other stuff, like on a DVD, for lets say $30? You know, so there's enough distinction to make it worth it. Like, paying 3 dollars more for a cassette might just not be enough.

 

Also, how about things unrelated to the music? "Like, get my dvd of 3 albums and 2 (live performance?) videos, and it comes with a big flag or something". If someone wants to support music outside of a casual online purchase, they maybe want something else, like a big poster, or what about stickers, key fobs, even mugs?! I know I sound like cafepress here, but I think the problem isn't whether people could want a physical product, it's whether the product is enough of a physical artifact. It relates the music not to 'something you found on the internet' but to like a lifestyle, or a set of beliefs even! I was thinking of selling cds in just drab sleeves, but including like a 2' square printed scarf/bandana/tablecloth thing. People could wear it, du drukqs on it, hang it on a wall, in a car, from a backpack, etc. So, not just trying to replicate the 'cd buying experience' trying to invent a new better one!!!

 

 

Ok, alsooo, how about the idea that, as more and more people are making music online, etc, that today, a 'musician' needs to create a whole experience, like, be a bit of an artist, web designer, marketer too. I think it's a sweet new mode of being a creator. People would subscribe to you as an outlet for a design/lifestyle stance even, more than just for sounds. Even with tumblr, twitter etc, people can subscribe literally to your lifestyle!

 

I could hug you right now, but I won't.

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Guest hahathhat

lots of blah blah blah in this thread. the web can be a medium for art and design, just as a vinyl cover can be. most people don't see the web in this way, though, and bitch and moan about how it's robbing music of presentation and personality.

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For me, packaging and additional content is very much a part of the experience.

 

Underworlds "Barking" special edition release was beautiful, 3 discs in the cardboard box with that artwork and the booklet... always worth the few extra quid in my eyes.

 

I was very excited about getting the new ae/h3o release in the post as I knew the packaging would be stunning. Now I have all 3 releases and they look great together - will be uploading some photos of them tonight.

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lots of blah blah blah in this thread. the web can be a medium for art and design, just as a vinyl cover can be. most people don't see the web in this way, though, and bitch and moan about how it's robbing music of presentation and personality.

 

It all depends on how you choose to look at it.

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i see that fabric now offer a digital only version of their membership scheme.... Which to me quite devalues it. The cds and the packaging are unique and owning nearly all of them is great. I have however stopped my sub recently as i just dont have the space to store them all.

So in a way, i can see why they have done this.

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Guest hahathhat

lots of blah blah blah in this thread. the web can be a medium for art and design, just as a vinyl cover can be. most people don't see the web in this way, though, and bitch and moan about how it's robbing music of presentation and personality.

 

It all depends on how you choose to look at it.

i'm afraid you'll have to be a tad less vague.

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Guest Greg Reason

i agree with the 'never do it for free' business! I mean if you wouldn't feel alright asking somebody the price of a McDonalds meal for something you've worked on for months or more, and have been developing probably for years, then what are you wasting your time for! I mean, you pay a taxi like $15 to go 4 miles! And i think wanting to make music as a lifestyle, (not just as the thing you do instead of going out with friends on weekends) also means you've got to be diciplined and practice and focus, etc, and if nobody feels that pressure music is just going to get shittier! I'd imagine this is preaching to the choir though.

 

I'm not wasting my time at all. The point of contention here is motivation. I want to help people to dream, and the more people I can assist by casting musical spells the better.

 

Money is all well and good but I have a solid job that pays very comfortably. Of course one day I would like to give this away but I'm not about to do it by trying to wring every cent I can out of my creations. I have different plans that I've been working on for years but I'm patient enough not to force it.

 

I say if people want to charge for everything then fair enough. Making music at a high level does take ridiculous amounts of time, energy and devotion over a very long period of a person's life so I can entirely understand why someone would want recompense for that. But again, this comes down to motivation, and the motivation I have for my creations is less about sustaining myself and more about building a universe for strangers and friends alike to inhabit.

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lots of blah blah blah in this thread. the web can be a medium for art and design, just as a vinyl cover can be. most people don't see the web in this way, though, and bitch and moan about how it's robbing music of presentation and personality.

 

shit hatty - we just found some common ground.

 

 

I'm not wasting my time at all. The point of contention here is motivation. I want to help people to dream, and the more people I can assist by casting musical spells the better.

 

Money is all well and good but I have a solid job that pays very comfortably. Of course one day I would like to give this away but I'm not about to do it by trying to wring every cent I can out of my creations. I have different plans that I've been working on for years but I'm patient enough not to force it.

 

I say if people want to charge for everything then fair enough. Making music at a high level does take ridiculous amounts of time, energy and devotion over a very long period of a person's life so I can entirely understand why someone would want recompense for that. But again, this comes down to motivation, and the motivation I have for my creations is less about sustaining myself and more about building a universe for strangers and friends alike to inhabit.

 

that's the thing - making music at a high level and doing that as your life requires extraordinary dedication. People who have to work a day job and then do music on the side rarely do much worthwhile musically. (Please note I am not leveling this criticism at anyone directly on the board). This is not always true, obviously (The excellent jazz pianist Duke Jordan for example, spent some time as a taxi driver in NYC, as ridiculous as that sounds), but in the main people who want to live as an artist obviously have to charge for their art in some fashion.

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Guest hahathhat

lots of blah blah blah in this thread. the web can be a medium for art and design, just as a vinyl cover can be. most people don't see the web in this way, though, and bitch and moan about how it's robbing music of presentation and personality.

 

shit hatty - we just found some common ground.

just because we drive each other up the wall doesn't mean we can't have similar opinions !

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this is an interesting topic. I am really interested in some nice packaging and some extra material. I do still buy lots of music on physical formats just because I love it so much. but within the last year or so I've been buying more and more digital music mostly because of my budget. I can save a few bucks buying digital and a significant amount of money goes to the artists I want to support (mostly bandcamp stuff, few at other places too). my family is getting older and needs more and more from me, so I do save a few bucks with digital stuff and I'm still listening to it a whole lot.

 

I also believe that the physical format (mostly vinyl, but CDs, too) give something "more" to the music. I absolutely love taking out my vinyls to put it on my turntable, just sit down and stare at the artwork while chilling with the music.

 

as for my own music releases, so far I've used the "pay what you want" strategy. at first it's because I wanted my music to be heard and I thought that the possibility to download for free would make more people curious to hear my stuff. honestly, I don't know if it helped but I'm pretty happy with the way my music is being shared / downloaded. I don't get lots of money from that, most people get it for free. I don't know, I might change my mind... dunno. I think that it's right that you "should" ask money when you put your heart into it and put lots of effort in making the music (this is my case, btw !! :) )

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lots of blah blah blah in this thread. the web can be a medium for art and design, just as a vinyl cover can be. most people don't see the web in this way, though, and bitch and moan about how it's robbing music of presentation and personality.

 

It all depends on how you choose to look at it.

i'm afraid you'll have to be a tad less vague.

 

Sorry, that's what I get for posting on my Droid. What I meant by that was...well, literally what I said. If you're the kind of person who looks at digital formats as a worthy substitution for a physical thing, then that's your choice. Like I posted earlier, it's all about preference, and I'm not knocking any one thing in favor of another here.

 

In truth I can say that I can't stand the idea of buying anything digital...music, video games, or any kind of media really. Does that mean I'm militantly against people who are into it? Not at all. It's simply "the times" and how self-employed musicians such as myself ultimately need to "get with them"...i.e. I have spent loads of time and effort making 80% of all 300+ of my releases (since 2004 that is) available via Bandcamp, which doesn't go as fast as you might think when you factor in locating a master recording in my office somewhere for something I did years ago, then sorting out FLACs and uploading those one by one. All of this is for the folks on the other side of the fence who don't really see a difference between owning files and owning LPs/CDs/tapes.

 

Anyway, I do stand by my earlier opinion that ultimately, the web has devalued and ultra-aged new music through most consumers' expectations of instant gratification and everything being "free" (one way or another)...and that perhaps is directly linked to labels simply not selling as much as they used to, and now having to deal in shorter runs/bigger deluxe packages, and of course digital formats. So as someone on both the production and consumer side of this issue, it's totally just a double-edged sword. As an artist it has become harder and harder to make a living doing this, but on the other hand I'm a fickle enough buyer that I don't even like buying a CD most of the time...typically vinyl and tapes are what get me excited. Hopefully somewhere in there, I'm able to find a good balance between what listeners want to buy and what makes me content artistically...and if it all works out, I can pay my bills for one more month and not have to eat Ramen for a while.

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Guest Greg Reason

I say if people want to charge for everything then fair enough. Making music at a high level does take ridiculous amounts of time, energy and devotion over a very long period of a person's life so I can entirely understand why someone would want recompense for that. But again, this comes down to motivation, and the motivation I have for my creations is less about sustaining myself and more about building a universe for strangers and friends alike to inhabit.

 

that's the thing - making music at a high level and doing that as your life requires extraordinary dedication. People who have to work a day job and then do music on the side rarely do much worthwhile musically. (Please note I am not leveling this criticism at anyone directly on the board). This is not always true, obviously (The excellent jazz pianist Duke Jordan for example, spent some time as a taxi driver in NYC, as ridiculous as that sounds), but in the main people who want to live as an artist obviously have to charge for their art in some fashion.

 

I understand what you're saying, but all members of Neurosis have day-jobs and they're one of the greatest bands in existence.

 

I think it comes down to the individuals concerned. Everyone is different.

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