chenGOD Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 i like what barry ritholtz says about ows http://www.ritholtz....ess-ag-offices/ Summary for those too lazy to click: 1. No more bailouts: Bring back real capitalism 2. End TBTF banks 3. Get Wall Street Money out of legislative process And those are three excellent points - although I would say that i you can institute #3 - the rest comes much more easily. Politics should not be driven by corporate money. Any form of capitalism doesn't fundamentally work. It encompasses private ownership of wealth - we need a system that shares/allocates resources equally so that social stratification in terms of wealth is eliminated (that means social class is removed, which thus means a healthier society [more equal societies do better in many areas - see the Spirit Level by Wilkinson]) and staying with what resources are available instead of leaving things up to the market (the market is not scientically based). I've argued with you many may times, and all you ever say is "we need to share resources equally". Thank you for explaining social stratification. My poor overworked mind could never have grasped that concept. Oh but wait - will removing wealth remove social class? Is class based strictly on wealth? What about other forms of capital, such as cultural capital, physical capital, intellectual capital? Looking at say - the !nkung who have never had capitalism - but there is still a social hierarchy. The market is not scientifically based because humans aren't scientifically based. The market allows for preference, as in, I prefer lucky charms to raisin bran (well I don't, my daughter does) - you want to allocate based on the assumption that resources aren't scarce (if resources aren't scarce, why the big concern over peak oil?), and you also want to determine what people are allowed to have. I am not arguing that societies shouldn't look out for other members of the society - I'm saying that the market is not fundamentally wrong. the idea of a free, unregulated market is wrong though. By the way, you should take a look at some fo the criticism of The Spirit Level - there is much that is valid. Additionally, from a quick view of the graphs provided at the spirit level website - all of those countries use markets, it's how the governments re-distribute the wealth that differs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SR4 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 maybe because he's tired of going nowhere you said it yourself, in that thread where you kept misreading my arguments while pumping historical determinism, that capitalism is very flexible and adjustable. wow take it easy. he made it pretty plain what his attitude was towards capitalism. capitalism is very flexible and adjustable, but that doesn't mean it is the peak of systematic performance. Monarchists like Burke argued the same thing about kingdoms and dukedoms being eternally flexible and adjustable. Personally, even though I do not share Bread's vision for the future, I am glad that people like him are around to criticize the current system regardless of how well it performs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugene Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 capitalism is very flexible and adjustable, but that doesn't mean it is the peak of systematic performance. at least it's something that the world understands more or less, some manage it better than others.. what he proposes seems like a black hole compared to what we have now, that's the attitude that doesn't make sense, especially given his affinity to science Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SR4 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 a beautifully detailed masterpiece of art always begins with a rough sketch, does it not? this whole Zeitgeist movement seems to be very much in its infancy. Am I saying Zeitgeist is the way to the future? No, I prefer to sit on the fence, the ideas as I have seen them mean well but they aren't fleshed out to create a solid and convincing argument on multiple levels. I actually support both sides of this argument, theoretically. If Bread's ideas are to stand a chance of any long-lasting merit, he needs appropriate criticism challenging the points that are still to be fleshed out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcinsu Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 So has everyone been following the violent crackdown on protesters in oakland? riot police raided the camp at dawn, firing rubber bullets, bean bag guns, tear gas, and sound canons to disperse protesters. media and legal observers were moved a block away, making it hard for them to cover the raid. all of the tents etc where destroyed/confiscated. many arrests (I read 70 in one place, and 180 in another) that night, more protesters showed up to protest the raid, and were once again fired upon with tear gas. it's starting to get messy. up until now, people have remained calm, but it will be hard to keep that up, when the police use these tactics for merely "refusing to comply with an order". this type of response should be used for violent acts only, and there is no evidence that protesters were attacking police. do you think the police are trying to force a violent reaction, to justify an even stronger crackdown, more arrests (with longer prison sentences) etc? has this story been covered on your news outlet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salvatorin Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 I don't know how people can be surprised and act as if they didn't expect to be violently shut down. It's like they think this is a country where free speech is protected! It is very obvious to me that the only reason this movement has been allowed to grow as much as it has is because the powers that be do not consider it to be a worthwhile threat to their grip, and to be honest it simply isn't. The transnational corporations that are intimately linked with the economic and social infrastructure of the U.S.A. don't need to fear insurrection because they have the US military on their side. And the US has bases in 38 out of 196 countries of the world. If occupy wall street was actually capable of making major changes to the current system, the FBI would just detain the protestors for a couple weeks and let everything settle down again like they've done in the past. All these protestors are going to be put on CIA blacklists and once the transition to police state is complete they'll be (insert punishment). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AAAAh Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 you guys talk a load of crap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcinsu Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 A protester is laying on the ground injured. Others surround him, to help. Police, that are 10 feet away, and saw that there was an injured person, and people trying to help, throw a flash bang grenade into them. (btw, OPD has denied using flash bang grenades... what does this look like?) [youtubehd]QqNOPZLw03Q[/youtubehd] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Benedict Cumberbatch Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 has this story been covered on your news outlet? I WAS SUPRISED HOW MUCH IT WAS COVERED. IT WAS ON THE LOCAL NEWS LAST NIGHT AND THE RADIO THIS MORNING AGAIN. PRETTY SHOCKING VIDEO TOO (btw, OPD has denied using flash bang grenades... what does this look like?) THAT IS THE STRANGE PART OF THE STORY SO FAR. WHY DENY USING SOMETHING THAT MAKES A FLASH IN AN AGE WHERE EVEN THE CAPTURE OF GADDAFI IS FILMED BY 100 CAMERA PHONES. CLEARLY THEY WERE TRYING TO GET THE PROTESTERS TO GET VIOLENT SO THEY COULD LABEL THEM AS VIOLENT A MOVEMENT. OR SOMETHING Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GORDO Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 or maybe that cop is just an asshole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Benedict Cumberbatch Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 NAH I MEAN THE WHOLE OPERATION. THEY COULDNT HAVE THOUGHT IT WOULD BE EASY/CLEAN. SO WHY GO IN IN THE FIRST PLACE? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sup Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 how can we take down the bad guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glunk Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 army of kittens and puppies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rambo Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 automatic weapons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Benedict Cumberbatch Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 RUMOUR IS THEY ARE EVICTING ALL PROTESTERS ACROSS THE COUNTRY TONIGHT. UNDER PRESSURE FROM THE DHS. rumour so....we'll see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roasty Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Hate to say it, but: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atop Posted October 27, 2011 Author Share Posted October 27, 2011 Just finished watching "South of the Border" about the revolutions in South America and how Hugo Chavez and other S American leaders run their countries..... No IMF, No outsourcing, No outside govt influences besides ones with similar interests and no corporate take overs/lobbying... wealth distributed within the countries somewhat equally..... Bush Jr actually told Hugo the best way to make the most money was to start wars??????? Ahhhh, how I love US foreign policy. Hugo thought this was not only disturbing but not a plan he would ever execute. I know, the wheels of progression are to far down the hill for the US to stop them from rolling without major upheaval in this country but I say bring it on. Hugo seems to be an honest man who loves his people and country. Unless the film is completely a lie, this looks like the way to run govts and keep poverty levels at a minimum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GORDO Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Just finished watching "South of the Border" about the revolutions in South America and how Hugo Chavez and other S American leaders run their countries..... No IMF, No outsourcing, No outside govt influences besides ones with similar interests and no corporate take overs/lobbying... wealth distributed within the countries somewhat equally..... But with a 30% inflation rate. Brazil i think, has been the only successful project in that aspect, Chile too but they don't fit in the theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cazador Mod Unit Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Atop please forget about trying to replicate Venezuela / Latin America in the US. Read about Martin Luther King and that kind of stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atop Posted October 27, 2011 Author Share Posted October 27, 2011 You don't know me so I will tell you that I know about non-violent protesting/leaders, and I couldn't replicate anything within any govt at the moment. Thanks for your opinion tho4. On the other hand, let us replicate standing together with peace in mind and non-violent activist numbers in the millions.... This will give the US govt the proper amount of fecal matter in their pants. Take the foundation out from underneath their blood covered hooves. This is what happens when you shit on the rights of your citizens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cazador Mod Unit Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SR4 Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 it better get fucking exposed. that is unforgivable no matter how you slice it. the flashbang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atop Posted October 27, 2011 Author Share Posted October 27, 2011 It is right now, being distributed at a speed quicker than most of us could ever hope for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SR4 Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 im trying to spread it as much as possible right now via phone/chat/..even reactivated my old facebook account to post it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atop Posted October 27, 2011 Author Share Posted October 27, 2011 My facebook feed is filled with links to the video. Oh how the govt must hate the internet. Throwing flashbombs at injured civilians should set the protests in a more intense direction. It is awful that is takes violence against innocents to get people off of their asses. History is filled with martyrs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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