Warehouse conversions Live/work type things

[TechDiff]

Hey, wondered if anyone can throw up some ideas and helpful suggestions for something.

 

Been living in Brighton for a few years now, shit has run its course and now its getting time to move. We're looking at moving up North, almost certainly Sheffield since a lot of friends there, Peak District on the doorstep, loads of climbing/bouldering and biking, and its so much cheaper than living down south.

 

Looking for places at the moment, probably for 5 people in total, and what we're really interested in doing is getting a disused warehouse on a reasonably long lease (5 years +) and converting it to a live/work space for us all.

 

Absolutely love the idea of creating the space exactly how you want it, getting hands on with the whole process, and ending up with an awesome place to live and work. None of the people moving in are shy of hardwork, and I am confident that we'll have the abilities and motivation to see something like this through.

 

Not talking about luxury by any means =D

 

Wondered if anyone on here has ever done something like this and can offer up any advice. Anything would be helpful to be honest. Things to look out for in contracts, stuff to look for in the buildings, stuff to avoid in the buildings, and resources for materials and designs, how to guides, anything really. It'd all be helpful.

 

Thanks in advance!

[BCM]

you'd have to get one already converted and OK'd for residential purposes - you can't just move into commercial space and start living in it - lots of health & safety checks etc need to be carried out. you might also need planning permission for change of use etc and a whole load of other crap. so if you can find a warehouse that's already been converted and had all the checks and stuff, then it'll save you a lot of ballache.

[keltoi]

i've dreamt of doing this too but it's a bit of a mine field of red tape, regulations, health & safety, tax and insurance if you plan to be all above board about it. legitimately you can't just lease a warehouse and throw a bed in the corner...

 

i suppose you could always just rent it without all of the above hassles and see how long you get away with it? could be fun.

 

as for space planning and design, there's loads of great ideas online for organising/separating spaces with moveable shelving or building raised bed-decks with storage or workspace below... or using salvaged goods and furniture for kitchens and bathrooms.

 

what sort of work will you all be doing?

[keltoi]

edit - aye basically what bcm said. (i had the reply window open for ages and got distracted with work).

 

i think this kind of thing is easier in other countries. here it's a big pain in the arse.

 

and the appeal of this kind of thing is sending warehouse prices through the roof so you're maybe 10 years too late to the party.

[Guest Coalbucket PI]

I had a friend who managed to arrange a sort of squatting situation in a disused storage building behind a branch of Pret or something in London, which he used as an art studio and lived there too. It was cool in a lot of ways but he had to basically construct separate living quarters building within the warehouse because it was so cold and easy to break into. I also recall he was particularly nervous about break ins because there was some sort of crack shack down the alley, on my way there once I saw a chap propping himself up against the wall and shitting, I think he waved at me very jovially but he might have just been wafting the stench away. But I think what I was getting at is the cold thing, these sort of buildings can be a huge money drain if you put heating in and stuff without sorting out the walls and roof or something.

[jhonny]

I live in Sheffield! Basically what BCM said, it's a bit of a mindfield with all the red tape, but it's a cool place to live and there's a good little scene of stuff going on (although I'm too old and boring now for any of it!)

[BCM]

might be an idea to look into being a "property guardian" - basically living in unused commercial space to guard it from break ins, vandalism etc. there are a few companies who source guardians on behalf of companies and you could end up living in all sorts of places - old office block, disused hospital, warehouse, water tower, old theme park (serious) - could be anything. they charge really low rents (in the region of £50 - £150 per month), but you could be moved on at very short notice - if this happens they will find you alternative accommodation. all the legal stuff and health & safety etc is handled by the company and there are a few checks they do on you to make sure you're not going to wreck the place.

 

check out these links:

 

http://uk.cameloteurope.com/

 

http://www.adhoc.eu/...cGuardians.aspx

 

http://www.newbouldg...CFVJX4Qod7TW6Pw

 

:sup:

[keltoi]

what used to happen is people would rent these warehouses for like £100/month and fit them out themselves cheaply with salvage and basic stuff to make them habitable. but warehouse owners realised the market and now tend to do them up how they want them and charge 6 times the rent. there is such a market for this type of property that there are now new-build live/work developments springing up in all major uk cities.

 

you have to insure for domestic and work related eventualities meaning premiums are huge, you pay council tax on part business/part domestic rates, then claim tax back on a portion of your rent as a business expense... and all sorts of other arse-pains i can't think of right now.

[keltoi]

might be an idea to look into being a "property guardian" - basically living in unused commercial space to guard it from break ins, vandalism etc. there are a few companies who source guardians on behalf of companies and you could end up living in all sorts of places - old office block, disused hospital, warehouse, water tower, old theme park (serious) - could be anything. they charge really low rents (in the region of £50 - £150 per month), but you could be moved on at very short notice - if this happens they will find you alternative accommodation. all the legal stuff and health & safety etc is handled by the company and there are a few checks they do on you to make sure you're not going to wreck the place.

 

check out these links:

 

http://uk.cameloteurope.com/

 

http://www.adhoc.eu/...cGuardians.aspx

 

http://www.newbouldg...CFVJX4Qod7TW6Pw

 

:sup:

 

i read that first link as camel toe europe.

 

anyway i doubt these companies would allow using these spaces for other work.

[BCM]

lol @ cameltoe europe

 

i think it all depends on the space, how many people are in it and the feelings of company that owns it. don't think you'd be allowed to like, run an entire business from a guardian property, but certainly using one to work in (studio etc) wouldn't present a problem I don't think. so yeah, probably couldn't run a taxi business from there, but the odd spot of art/design/sound etc work would be ok.

[jhonny]

Just a few thoughts. Some of the cool places in Sheffield where there are central warehouses in the city are part of the Cultural/Heritage area, so my guess is that it'd be impossible to get through planning permission to change the usage (or at least will need a lot of investigating). There are some good areas on the outskirts, in places like Hillsborough/Stocksbridge and some deep dark industrial parts like Attercliffe

[keltoi]

Just a few thoughts. Some of the cool places in Sheffield where there are central warehouses in the city are part of the Cultural/Heritage area, so my guess is that it'd be impossible to get through planning permission to change the usage

 

no, quite the opposite! these ex-industrial properties are absolute gold-mines for redevelopment especially when all our industry has gone overseas. look at london thames-side, liverpool docks, glasgow clyde-side, etc. all rejuvenated with fancy redevelopments.

[Guest Benedict Cumberbatch]

get kevin mcloud on the blower!

[TechDiff]

might be an idea to look into being a "property guardian" - basically living in unused commercial space to guard it from break ins, vandalism etc. there are a few companies who source guardians on behalf of companies and you could end up living in all sorts of places - old office block, disused hospital, warehouse, water tower, old theme park (serious) - could be anything. they charge really low rents (in the region of £50 - £150 per month), but you could be moved on at very short notice - if this happens they will find you alternative accommodation. all the legal stuff and health & safety etc is handled by the company and there are a few checks they do on you to make sure you're not going to wreck the place.

 

check out these links:

 

http://uk.cameloteurope.com/

 

http://www.adhoc.eu/...cGuardians.aspx

 

http://www.newbouldg...CFVJX4Qod7TW6Pw

 

:sup:

 

Wow, loads of helpful points! Thanks a lot!

 

you'd have to get one already converted and OK'd for residential purposes - you can't just move into commercial space and start living in it - lots of health & safety checks etc need to be carried out. you might also need planning permission for change of use etc and a whole load of other crap. so if you can find a warehouse that's already been converted and had all the checks and stuff, then it'll save you a lot of ballache.

 

So this was exactly my concerns. I'll freely admit that I am far from an expert in such legal matters, but unfortunately my naivety has been tricking me into thinking that it's an easy problem to navigate through.

 

It's kinda funny, there is a much bigger scene for this type of thing in London. I made the assumption that Sheffield being the industrial city it once was, there would be an abundance of possible places. But I guess I was wrong.

 

What I have found out though, is a lot of it tends to come down to landlords discretion as much as anything else. There is a London based agency which specializes in this kind of Live/work unit type deal. Had a long phone conversation with them earlier today. The guy on the phone said, without wishing to give too much away, that most of the places he deals with are still let on a commercial basis. It just so happens that the people work there tend to sleep most nights in the premises, such hard workers!

 

Ultimately it'll come down to the owner of the building and their interpritation of the way youre using the space, and how he will react should he be approached by the local authorities. With all that said, it'd come as no surprise that if the tennants are happy to sign a 5 year tennancy agreement, and pay slightly more than the asking price, the owner might consider it in their best interest to lease the property and effectivly turn a blind eye.

 

i've dreamt of doing this too but it's a bit of a mine field of red tape, regulations, health & safety, tax and insurance if you plan to be all above board about it. legitimately you can't just lease a warehouse and throw a bed in the corner...

 

i suppose you could always just rent it without all of the above hassles and see how long you get away with it? could be fun.

 

as for space planning and design, there's loads of great ideas online for organising/separating spaces with moveable shelving or building raised bed-decks with storage or workspace below... or using salvaged goods and furniture for kitchens and bathrooms.

 

what sort of work will you all be doing?

 

Basically what you've said here, Im not adverse to being a bit cheeky if that is what it takes =D

 

The basic plans for construction are still being thought over. But we've got the idea of using straw bails for insulating the main workspace/living room. Construct a wooden frame which the bails fit inside, then clad it with chipboard. The hope is that it will keep the place warm and also provide a decent amount of sound insulation too. Not to mention it'd be incredibly cheap.

 

Like I said previously, really not too fussed about luxury. Just thrift. Breeze blocks, MDF, and chipboard as much as possible!

 

As for work, 2 of us are self employed as musicians, so we'd be building our studios in there. One person is a graphic designer, so again, theyd be building their studio. Another person is a professional climber and we're toying with the idea of building our own indoor bouldering walls. The other is a freelance camera person, and part time AV installation tech. Basically all vocations that could theoretically justify the use of a workshop/studio.

 

what used to happen is people would rent these warehouses for like £100/month and fit them out themselves cheaply with salvage and basic stuff to make them habitable. but warehouse owners realised the market and now tend to do them up how they want them and charge 6 times the rent. there is such a market for this type of property that there are now new-build live/work developments springing up in all major uk cities.

 

Exactly that, and really this takes the fun out of it imo. I really wouldnt feel comfortable living in one of those luxery warehouse conversion places. There's a couple in Brighton and to say they're bland and impersonal is an understatment.

[TechDiff]

might be an idea to look into being a "property guardian" - basically living in unused commercial space to guard it from break ins, vandalism etc. there are a few companies who source guardians on behalf of companies and you could end up living in all sorts of places - old office block, disused hospital, warehouse, water tower, old theme park (serious) - could be anything. they charge really low rents (in the region of £50 - £150 per month), but you could be moved on at very short notice - if this happens they will find you alternative accommodation. all the legal stuff and health & safety etc is handled by the company and there are a few checks they do on you to make sure you're not going to wreck the place.

 

check out these links:

 

http://uk.cameloteurope.com/

 

http://www.adhoc.eu/...cGuardians.aspx

 

http://www.newbouldg...CFVJX4Qod7TW6Pw

 

:sup:

 

Woops, problems with formatting that last post...

 

So yeah, funny you mention Camelot as Im currently a guardian here in Brighton, have been for about 4 years. More than familiar with the ups and downs of such a set up.

 

As you say, the rent is considerably cheaper, and you can end up in some great places. The issue though it reliability, and relationship with landlord.

 

Its always very difficult to know how long you might have the place for, and that is almost never under your control. We've been here for 4 years, but have never been certain of our stay for more than 3 months at a time. The site is due for demolition to make space for a nursing home, any day we could receive an email telling us we have to be out in a week or 2. Not good if you're trying to make a place a home. As you say, they should help you to find another place, but that leaves you entirely at their mercy. It could be anything, anywhere, and in any type of condition. I've seen some absolute holes that they've tried to find tenants for.

 

Also, the issue with how much you can expect from your landlord. They are under no pressure to keep the place in an habitable condition. Central heating hasn't worked since we moved in, broken windows that have been broken since we moved in, faulty electrics, all manner of issues. Of course theres the possibility of the same in a warehouse, but if you could be certain of how long you'd be there for, you could make a reasonable assessment as to whether or not its worth spending the money to repair things.

 

Guardianship is all well and good, and worth doing for short periods of time. But I would not recommend it for any long duration. Gets very annoying after a while

[jhonny]

Just a few thoughts. Some of the cool places in Sheffield where there are central warehouses in the city are part of the Cultural/Heritage area, so my guess is that it'd be impossible to get through planning permission to change the usage

 

no, quite the opposite! these ex-industrial properties are absolute gold-mines for redevelopment especially when all our industry has gone overseas. look at london thames-side, liverpool docks, glasgow clyde-side, etc. all rejuvenated with fancy redevelopments.

You may well be right. The industrial areas in the city are all advertised as 'heritage zones' and 'cultural areas' and in some parts there are the old pewter and cutlery works from a different era. Obviously the buildings would be really cool, but I'm not sure how easy it'd be to change the usage of one to residential/commercial. Worth an investigation though!

[keltoi]

Straw bails and chipboard? That might keep you a bit too warm. As in go up like an inferno!

[TechDiff]

Straw bails and chipboard? That might keep you a bit too warm. As in go up like an inferno!

 

hah, yeah sorry, should've stated that you have to render them as well. like I said, the basic principle is to build a wooden frame to house the bales. Once they're stacked and installed, you run very large almost staples through them to stoop them from moving. next you mount wire mesh across the surface. Then you render.

 

you can stop here, and will end up with a kinda undulating surface. We''ll go a little further by cladding that with fire retardant chipboard mounted to the exterior or the wooden frame. basically because that leaves a cavity for running wires through, and a pretty flat surface.

 

you'd be surprised tbh, straw bales are no where near as flammable as you'd think, partly because of their density. once rendered they're incredibly fire resistant. theyve even been passed as an accepted building material in parts of Australia suseptable to bush fire, which is good enough for me.

[TechDiff]

Just a few thoughts. Some of the cool places in Sheffield where there are central warehouses in the city are part of the Cultural/Heritage area, so my guess is that it'd be impossible to get through planning permission to change the usage

 

no, quite the opposite! these ex-industrial properties are absolute gold-mines for redevelopment especially when all our industry has gone overseas. look at london thames-side, liverpool docks, glasgow clyde-side, etc. all rejuvenated with fancy redevelopments.

You may well be right. The industrial areas in the city are all advertised as 'heritage zones' and 'cultural areas' and in some parts there are the old pewter and cutlery works from a different era. Obviously the buildings would be really cool, but I'm not sure how easy it'd be to change the usage of one to residential/commercial. Worth an investigation though!

 

unfortunately its not even quite so thoughtful. More often than not, the value is not the buildings, but the land it's on. if at all possible the developer will rip down any existing buildings and start fresh and capitalise on the square footage. That's not possible when the buildings are either listed, or protected by some planning restrictions. then you getbthe whole headache of sympathetic modifications and what not. depending on the area, this can become a complete nightmare. Things like sourcing the correct type of bricks for example would get very expensive indeed.

 

while it'd be amazing to find some awesome 1920 wood framed building and convert it. That strikes me as a costly option, purely for the aesthetic. we're more interested in finding something maybe 1960s and brick. not so old that it's too knackered, not too beautiful that it's protected by a million planning restrictions, and still weather proof!

[keltoi]

Straw bails and chipboard? That might keep you a bit too warm. As in go up like an inferno!

 

hah, yeah sorry, should've stated that you have to render them as well. like I said, the basic principle is to build a wooden frame to house the bales. Once they're stacked and installed, you run very large almost staples through them to stoop them from moving. next you mount wire mesh across the surface. Then you render.

 

you can stop here, and will end up with a kinda undulating surface. We''ll go a little further by cladding that with fire retardant chipboard mounted to the exterior or the wooden frame. basically because that leaves a cavity for running wires through, and a pretty flat surface.

 

you'd be surprised tbh, straw bales are no where near as flammable as you'd think, partly because of their density. once rendered they're incredibly fire resistant. theyve even been passed as an accepted building material in parts of Australia suseptable to bush fire, which is good enough for me.

 

that's more like it. what you described initially did not sound safe at all. but without central heating (which old warehouses don't have), a proper insulated roof (which old warehouses don't have) and double glazing (which old warehouses don't have) i'm afraid all your efforts with the bails will be fairly pointless apart from as bulky space dividers.

[Soloman Tump]

if it was built in the 50s/ 60s its probably got a high percentage of asbestos in it, so dont go digging around too much...

Your idea in principle sounds pretty awesome, but Yeah, its gonna get cold in the winter. When the wind starts howling through the gaps in the roller shutter doors and the rain is dripping through the ceiling, you might start wishing you had rented a flat