UK no likey the porn

[Glunk]

people are allowed to think whatever the fuck they want. i wasn't making an argument. i am also a very concerned citizen, and i was expressing a legitimate concern and a legitimate opinion. which i am allowed to have. who would have thought?

 

maybe my question was a bit sensational but i meant to underline the higher possibility for coercion. sex work is not like regular work. sex is a vulnerable act and it REQUIRES informed consent, so of course i want to know that every actor has consented without any doubt.

 

also there is DEFINITELY nothing bad about sex.

[chenGOD]

You don't think porn is damaging, but you think sex is violent. Coolio.

Pornography is an offshoot of the roles that were socially constructed. You asked earlier why women fake orgasms on screen? Because porn is a product - they need to sell it. It is a consumer item, and the target is overwhelmingly men. The fake orgasms are to show that women enjoy being treated like sex objects. Most heterosexual porn shows the man in a dominant position over women. women are the object that are there for men to take and use. Now when you get into the gonzo porn, there are no fake orgasms, there are simply women being used as holes.

Roles in sex have equalized substantially because we as a society have learned to see value in women. Not because porn empowered them. Porn reduces them again to mere objects - what do you know of the woman in porn besides she gives good head and can take two cocks in her ass at the same time?

Earlier you mentioned that the number of women in schools has risen to overtake that of men. Two responses to that: 1) now how many women do you see as CEOs? As professors?

2) If you read the file I attached upthread entitled "porn and the end of eros" you'll find that the author makes a compelling argument that the reason male enrollment rates have declined is because of porn.

 

every person should be able to choose their experience and enjoy it the way they want to without that conflict from what society deems the appropriate way to be.

I used to think in that sort of libertarian fashion. But the reality is that you live within a society. That's why you have so far managed to avoid being anally raped, because society frowns upon that sort of thing. When people OD from using hard drugs, or rob or steal to fund their drug habit, they affect society. Yes sure you say - punish the crime of robbing or murder. that doesn't relieve the burden from society of having to deal with the effects of that crime.

Now ok, sure, provide them with needle exchanges or safehouses to smoke their meth/rock - who pays for that? The taxpayer does. You reap the benefits from living in a civil society, then it is appropriate to follow the norms of society.

 

Edit: You believe teen pregnancy has been on the decline, and it had been, until recently. 2006 saw teen pregnancy rates swing upward again.

You guys and your "oh yeah studies are skewed" Do you understand what the fuck "peer-reviewed" means?

 

And yes, i think the femdom stuff (which is still very niche) is just as degrading to men.

 

And of course there is nothing wrong with sex. Sex is beautiful. Porn is not sex. Porn is a product that degrades both performers, warps what is expected of sexual partners, and changes attitudes toward what the sexual act should consist of, and how roles should be performed.

[Adieu]

You don't trust peer-reviewed studies? Self-reporting done in anonymous studies generally correlates pretty well to actual experiences. Why would you lie on an anonymous study about your porn habits? Do you feel that badly about it?

I didn't just drop the word study and leave it, I actually gave you studies to read. How about you give some back?

 

Fantasizing about magic isn't damaging, because magic isn't real. Fantasizing about rape is damaging because rape is real.

 

You think porn isn't degrading to women? Fine - you'd have no problem with your mom, sister, girlfriend being in a porn then.

Your ideas about porn are kind of naive i think. And here's the kicker - even if you avoid the violent stuff, and you only watch it on free sites, those sites are ad-supported by the companies which produce mainstream porn. There are like three companies which produce the majority of the porn out there (in North America) - so those three companies are also responsible for the violent stuff. So by watching free (ad-supported) porn, you're still supporting those companies who produce the violent gonzo shit.

 

Well, you always have to take studies with a grain of salt. The person conducting them is usually always being funded by someone with a motive. That being said I'm sure some of this data is useful, but I think you would be better off relating your own views to the subject.

 

I don't think that fantasizing about anything is damaging. If all you do is think and fantasize about rape, killing, or hurting people then you probably have some issues, but fantasizing and role playing are part of everyone's sexual experience. Role playing rape is common place in sexual relationships even if it is just the undertone. For example, the stranger coming in and having his way with the other person. It isn't entirely consensual, but it isn't violent either. I think a lot of people have at least once fantasized about hurting someone or doing something socially unacceptable, but with all things its usually about how often and whether or not you are over doing it that is the problem. There is also a big difference about fantasizing and experiencing something mentally and actually acting it out.

 

I play violent videos games and thoroughly enjoy it, but I am not a violent person. I like to watch films that depict all ranges of humanity, but I only act out my life a certain way.

 

The reason that porn is considered degrading is because it is taking something personal and putting it out there for everyone. Also, it is taking things that are considered fetish or not appetizing to many people and exposing them to it. I would argue that porn is just as degrading to men as it is to women. Do you really have more respect for the male in the porn than the woman? I don't. I think they are both equally shallow careers. The second part of why porn is degrading is the fact that throughout time society has tried to teach us that sex is supposed to be private and that sex with someone you aren't married to is wrong. There are all these social morays that are at work in this particular subject. The truth is that there isn't really any good reason why. The only reasons it could ever be seen as bad is that there are some real consequences like babies and diseases. I imagine that is why these particular ideas came into being.

[Root5]

I have a lot of trouble telling someone else I know what they want better than they do.

 

So if a girl chooses to go in porn, I really have trouble saying "no you don't really want to do that."

[Root5]

The fake orgasms are to show that women enjoy being treated like sex objects. Most heterosexual porn shows the man in a dominant position over women. women are the object that are there for men to take and use. Now when you get into the gonzo porn, there are no fake orgasms, there are simply women being used as holes.

 

This is precisely where I disagree with you I think. I'm not going to say the world is hunky-dorry for women. I'm not going to say porn empowered them. But I don't agree with being judgmental over fiction, fantasy, and sexual preference.

 

Some porn shows men in a dominant position. Presumably it is marketed for an audience that gets off on that, so either men who like being dominant or women who like being submissive. I'm sure it's mostly men who like being dominant, and that doesn't bother me at all.

 

There's nothing wrong with people preferring to take those roles in sex. I personally prefer to be submissive. There's porn for that too.

 

And women fake orgasms because men like the fantasy of being enjoyed. It's a James Bond thing. They like the fantasy of being adored.

 

The men in porn aren't treating the women like "objects" if by object you mean inanimate object. Because they don't fuck inanimate objects. So what is the word "object" doing there. They are treating the women like women they are having sex with. Maybe dominate sex with. Maybe not. Depends on the sex. Perhaps they aren't treating the women well, and you could complain about that. But why would you describe it as "treating them like objects". Do they not treat objects well? What is that comparison doing for your case? I've never understood that expression.

 

I like to think of it this way. If you really like cyborgs and rocket-ships and machine-guns, there's fiction for that. To provide that fantasy for you. Porn operates the same way.

[Glunk]

Role playing rape is common place in sexual relationships even if it is just the undertone. For example, the stranger coming in and having his way with the other person. It isn't entirely consensual, but it isn't violent either.

 

if it isn't entirely consensual, then it actually is rape, which is extremely damaging. it doesn't have to be violent to do damage.

[Adieu]

You don't think porn is damaging, but you think sex is violent. Coolio.

Pornography is an offshoot of the roles that were socially constructed. You asked earlier why women fake orgasms on screen? Because porn is a product - they need to sell it. It is a consumer item, and the target is overwhelmingly men. The fake orgasms are to show that women enjoy being treated like sex objects. Most heterosexual porn shows the man in a dominant position over women. women are the object that are there for men to take and use. Now when you get into the gonzo porn, there are no fake orgasms, there are simply women being used as holes.

Roles in sex have equalized substantially because we as a society have learned to see value in women. Not because porn empowered them. Porn reduces them again to mere objects - what do you know of the woman in porn besides she gives good head and can take two cocks in her ass at the same time?

Earlier you mentioned that the number of women in schools has risen to overtake that of men. Two responses to that: 1) now how many women do you see as CEOs? As professors?

2) If you read the file I attached upthread entitled "porn and the end of eros" you'll find that the author makes a compelling argument that the reason male enrollment rates have declined is because of porn.

 

every person should be able to choose their experience and enjoy it the way they want to without that conflict from what society deems the appropriate way to be.

I used to think in that sort of libertarian fashion. But the reality is that you live within a society. That's why you have so far managed to avoid being anally raped, because society frowns upon that sort of thing. When people OD from using hard drugs, or rob or steal to fund their drug habit, they affect society. Yes sure you say - punish the crime of robbing or murder. that doesn't relieve the burden from society of having to deal with the effects of that crime.

Now ok, sure, provide them with needle exchanges or safehouses to smoke their meth/rock - who pays for that? The taxpayer does. You reap the benefits from living in a civil society, then it is appropriate to follow the norms of society.

 

"You don't think porn is damaging, but you think sex is violent. Coolio."

 

I feel you have to be implying that sex is damaging then as well. The point of that statement was to show that there is an inherent violence in all sex and self-pleasure for that matter. It cannot be avoided so to say porn is too violent or even that fact that somehow sex has become more violent doesn't make sense.

 

"The fake orgasms are to show that women enjoy being treated like sex objects"

 

That is your opinion. They could just as easily being faking orgasms because men get off on the idea that they are able to pleasure women. Why does the object part have to come into play? That sounds like polarized nonsense to me. I know in my experience sometimes I have to tell my girlfriend to shut up because when she moans like crazy it makes me orgasm faster which I don't want to do. I would rather keep pleasuring the both of us. lol

 

Women have come a long way to equality, but they aren't entirely there yet. I will say this though. I think men are more suited naturally to lead then women and this is entirely genetic, but I don't think that women are incapable or that men will always be better leaders. I do think however to assert themselves in society the way they seem to be wanting they will take on more masculine attributes.

 

I know that Sasha Grey is in a band and also was on Entourage for a while. Plus she can take a lot of dicks at the same time and seems to enjoy it. That and the fact that she can make 6 figures and not have to work more than a few days a week.

 

I know that Asia Carrera is in Mensa which means she basically has a genius IQ. Interesting how someone so intelligent chose that career.

 

I also would argue that the girls in that gonzo type porn enjoy what they are doing or think that it is worth the money or both.

 

"Most heterosexual porn shows the man in a dominant position over women."

 

For the most part this is how heterosexuality works. I challenge any man to go get a woman and then try to assert himself in a submission position. I doubt that you will have a huge success rate. Maybe 1 out of 10 or so might be down with it, but usually straight girls are turned off by submissive men.

 

"Roles in sex have equalized substantially because we as a society have learned to see value in women. Not because porn empowered them. Porn reduces them again to mere objects."

 

No roles have equalized because women have asserted themselves in society and because some men are open-minded enough to allow them. Also, some men understand that dominance is not a entirely male trait, but varies human to human

 

"If you read the file I attached upthread entitled "porn and the end of eros" you'll find that the author makes a compelling argument that the reason male enrollment rates have declined is because of porn."

 

I would argue video games are probably more to blame than porn. Either way to associate something so abstractly is most likely bullshit.

 

 

Well the drug thing will always be an issue with humans, but I think that if we as a society had a more accepting attitude towards substance use in general that people would be less inclined to abuse. Judgmental societies and especially ones where you are immediately labeled for being apart of something reap all kind of damage on people emotionally and tend to have a perpetuating effect. Like the idea that someone went to jail for possessing cocaine is now labeled a drug addict and treated as such. I have done meth, cocaine, and all sort of other things and have not had any such issues. I will say this though. As a society we have the means to take care of the people who are at their lowest, but we choose not to for a number of reasons. We take advantage of people wanting to experience life by throwing them in jail and charging them money for possessing something as simple as a plant. My hope would be that when we realize all these things are a part of our lives that we can being to be honest about using them and the consequence of such use. Alcohol is legal and we pay for the consequences of it on a daily basis.

[Adieu]

people are allowed to think whatever the fuck they want. i wasn't making an argument. i am also a very concerned citizen, and i was expressing a legitimate concern and a legitimate opinion. which i am allowed to have. who would have thought?

 

maybe my question was a bit sensational but i meant to underline the higher possibility for coercion. sex work is not like regular work. sex is a vulnerable act and it REQUIRES informed consent, so of course i want to know that every actor has consented without any doubt.

 

also there is DEFINITELY nothing bad about sex.

 

 

I agree you are and I wasn't saying you shouldn't. Sorry if I offended you with my emotional attitude.

 

Sex work would be way safer it were legal. Just saying. Everyone would love if everything was entirely done right, but there is always that margin of misconduct.

[chenGOD]

Umm no - do they ask her name? Get to know anything about her?

She is a sex object - might as well be two holes in a doll. Objectification - when someone else treats the person as nothing more than a commodity to use with little regard for the person's individuality.

By dominant position, I don't mean dominant as in the S+M sense of the word, I mean the woman is 90% of the time ordered to do what the man requests or demands.

 

Here have some more reading:

http://www.guardian....nes-pornography

http://knol.google.c...-t-want-to-see# (click on the links, they are not actual pictures, rather researched information)

http://www.thedailyb...?obref=obinsite (this one engages in some hyperbole, sure, but there are some relevant quotes and information as well)

 

AdieuErsatzEnnui (are you welcoming real boredom then?)

I'm glad you can be so dismissive of the articles without actually reading them.

 

They could just as easily being faking orgasms because men get off on the idea that they are able to pleasure women. Why does the object part have to come into play? That sounds like polarized nonsense to me. I know in my experience sometimes I have to tell my girlfriend to shut up because when she moans like crazy it makes me orgasm faster which I don't want to do. I would rather keep pleasuring the both of us. lol

 

Yo didn't you say earlier that sex is better when you're trying to please yourself? Why would you want to pleasure both of you?

 

"Roles in sex have equalized substantially because we as a society have learned to see value in women. Not because porn empowered them. Porn reduces them again to mere objects."

 

No roles have equalized because women have asserted themselves in society and because some men are open-minded enough to allow them. Also, some men understand that dominance is not a entirely male trait, but varies human to human

yeah, women stopped being satisfied with being walked all over, said "fuck you" and we learned how to appreciate the value of women. "Some men are open-minded enough to allow them" - does not jive with "women asserted themselves". Why should they have be allowed to do it? To seek permission?

[Adieu]

Role playing rape is common place in sexual relationships even if it is just the undertone. For example, the stranger coming in and having his way with the other person. It isn't entirely consensual, but it isn't violent either.

 

if it isn't entirely consensual, then it actually is rape, which is extremely damaging. it doesn't have to be violent to do damage.

 

 

Right and because of the nature of sex society has a hard time identifying "entirely consensual".

 

What I meant was the idea that the role play wasn't violent rape, but that the girl and probably guy got off on the idea that it wasn't "entirely consensual". It was in fact consensual, but they were pretending it wasn't. I know if you have ever been in a long lasting relationship and are not a stick in the mud sexually that you have done something similar.

 

Being taken advantage of in any way is damaging. It is an unfortunate occurrence.

[Root5]

Umm no - do they ask her name? Get to know anything about her?

She is a sex object - might as well be two holes in a doll. Objectification - when someone else treats the person as nothing more than a commodity to use with little regard for the person's individuality.

By dominant position, I don't mean dominant as in the S+M sense of the word, I mean the woman is 90% of the time ordered to do what the man requests or demands.

 

Here have some more reading:

http://www.guardian....nes-pornography

http://knol.google.c...-t-want-to-see# (click on the links, they are not actual pictures, rather researched information)

http://www.thedailyb...?obref=obinsite (this one engages in some hyperbole, sure, but there are some relevant quotes and information as well)

 

This objectification thing is still a total mystery to me.

 

So am I objectifying a shopkeep when I'm using him as nothing more than a means to purchase his stuff?

 

Am I objectifying a pilot when I hop on a plane?

 

Why do you think men prefer women to dolls, out of curiosity?

 

Are you suddenly okay with porn if the actors are friends behind the scenes?

[Adieu]

Umm no - do they ask her name? Get to know anything about her?

She is a sex object - might as well be two holes in a doll. Objectification - when someone else treats the person as nothing more than a commodity to use with little regard for the person's individuality.

By dominant position, I don't mean dominant as in the S+M sense of the word, I mean the woman is 90% of the time ordered to do what the man requests or demands.

 

Here have some more reading:

http://www.guardian....nes-pornography

http://knol.google.c...-t-want-to-see# (click on the links, they are not actual pictures, rather researched information)

http://www.thedailyb...?obref=obinsite (this one engages in some hyperbole, sure, but there are some relevant quotes and information as well)

 

 

Actually, yes in a lot of porn there is a small interview at the beginning where they ask things like what is your name and what do you do.

 

The woman is a sex object just as the man is a walking boner.

 

The objectification things is bullshit. In the professional industry the girls get paid, they get asked what they are OK with, and nothing about them gets used as in they do not possess it after they are finished. They perform in a film that requires them to have sex. They have an image that is built by an agent, and they are marketing no differently than a pop star would be. Except the minor difference that they get naked and have sex.

 

I'm not going to read this stuff dude. I'm sorry I don't have time. If you can't come up with decent argument that is fine. The thing is all you are doing is regurgitating bullshit I have heard before.

 

Anyway, I'm done with this thread.

[oyster]

Well Sasha Grey told me porn is the highest form of art

[chenGOD]

Umm no - do they ask her name? Get to know anything about her?

She is a sex object - might as well be two holes in a doll. Objectification - when someone else treats the person as nothing more than a commodity to use with little regard for the person's individuality.

By dominant position, I don't mean dominant as in the S+M sense of the word, I mean the woman is 90% of the time ordered to do what the man requests or demands.

 

Here have some more reading:

http://www.guardian....nes-pornography

http://knol.google.c...-t-want-to-see# (click on the links, they are not actual pictures, rather researched information)

http://www.thedailyb...?obref=obinsite (this one engages in some hyperbole, sure, but there are some relevant quotes and information as well)

 

 

Actually, yes in a lot of porn there is a small interview at the beginning where they ask things like what is your name and what do you do.

 

The woman is a sex object just as the man is a walking boner.

 

The objectification things is bullshit. In the professional industry the girls get paid, they get asked what they are OK with, and nothing about them gets used as in they do not possess it after they are finished. They perform in a film that requires them to have sex. They have an image that is built by an agent, and they are marketing no differently than a pop star would be. Except the minor difference that they get naked and have sex.

 

I'm not going to read this stuff dude. I'm sorry I don't have time. If you can't come up with decent argument that is fine. The thing is all you are doing is regurgitating bullshit I have heard before.

 

Anyway, I'm done with this thread.

 

yeah the girls get paid - but that's not how it's presented to the viewer. Although sometimes it is, in which case the girl is really a commodity to be bought and used for sex. You don't want to think past your preconceived notions that porn is fine, no one gets hurt from it, and it doesn't affect society. So just run along with your blinkered life and don't try and think outside your safe zone. And yes the men are objects to, and they have it worse than the girls, cause they get paid less. By the way, how much do you think girls make doing gonzo shoots?

 

Root5 if you can't understand the term objectification then there's no real hope for you. You're not objectifying a shopkeeper, because you're not purchasing him. you're using the object you purchase for a specific task. the women in porn, you use them to achieve an orgasm and then you dispose of them.

[Glunk]

if people want to engage in power play or rape play, by all means do as long as it's consensual. but to act like it's 'standard' or required so that you arent considered a stick in the mud is completely fucked

[Root5]

Root5 if you can't understand the term objectification then there's no real hope for you. You're not objectifying a shopkeeper, because you're not purchasing him. you're using the object you purchase for a specific task. the women in porn, you use them to achieve an orgasm and then you dispose of them.

 

Wait wait, no hear me out. This is a serious point that I honestly believe in. I really think the word "objectification" is gibberish.

 

You said the important distinction is that you're not purchasing the shopkeep, you're purchasing the object. But in are still using the shopkeep. He gathers the stuff and puts it on the shelves for you. The pilot takes you to your destination.

 

With porn, well I'm not purchasing anything, so I don't see why purchasing was the distinction. You could say the porn makers are purchasing the actors, but they aren't. They are purchasing a service that the actors provide. How is that any worse than paying some people to mow your lawn?

 

The women in porn, I use them to achieve orgasm, that is true. But I use lots of people for lots of things. Right now I'm using you to have a discussion. I use my brother because he helps out with the dishes. And what do you mean by "dispose of them". I don't put them in trash cans. Would it be better if I called them up and expressed my appreciation? We all use each other all the time. The problem is when we treat each other in hurtful ways. If I say nasty things to someone, or I physically assault them, or scam them out of money. That is bad. But using someone in a way that doesn't do that, like watching a video someone has made available to me, or paying someone to mow my lawn, is totally acceptable. You can see it as how societies form. We help each other.

 

So I still do not understand the distinction between using a shopkeep, or paying a guy to mow your lawn, and watching porn.

 

And I realize this is a point that people don't make a lot. People seem to intuitively understand the word "objectification". But I'm not being cheeky here. I think it deserves some serious though.

 

EDIT: I'll also take this opportunity to formally distance myself from Adieu's claim that men are genetically born leaders and stuff like that. Although I like his enthusiasm for not being judgmental of other people's sexual practices.

[Adieu]

if people want to engage in power play or rape play, by all means do as long as it's consensual. but to act like it's 'standard' or required so that you arent considered a stick in the mud is completely fucked

 

Well as long as you are open to it you aren't a stick in the mud.

[Guest boo]

i don't get the 'kids are growing up faster these days' thing. kids used to have a full-time job by 9 and married with children by 12. childhood lasts at least 17 years these days.

 

some old guy told me i'm past it cause i'm not married with children at 27.

[Adieu]

Root5 if you can't understand the term objectification then there's no real hope for you. You're not objectifying a shopkeeper, because you're not purchasing him. you're using the object you purchase for a specific task. the women in porn, you use them to achieve an orgasm and then you dispose of them.

 

Wait wait, no hear me out. This is a serious point that I honestly believe in. I really think the word "objectification" is gibberish.

 

You said the important distinction is that you're not purchasing the shopkeep, you're purchasing the object. But in are still using the shopkeep. He gathers the stuff and puts it on the shelves for you. The pilot takes you to your destination.

 

With porn, well I'm not purchasing anything, so I don't see why purchasing was the distinction. You could say the porn makers are purchasing the actors, but they aren't. They are purchasing a service that the actors provide. How is that any worse than paying some people to mow your lawn?

 

The women in porn, I use them to achieve orgasm, that is true. But I use lots of people for lots of things. Right now I'm using you to have a discussion. I use my brother because he helps out with the dishes. And what do you mean by "dispose of them". I don't put them in trash cans. Would it be better if I called them up and expressed my appreciation? We all use each other all the time. The problem is when we treat each other in hurtful ways. If I say nasty things to someone, or I physically assault them, or scam them out of money. That is bad. But using someone in a way that doesn't do that, like watching a video someone has made available to me, or paying someone to mow my lawn, is totally acceptable. You can see it as how societies form. We help each other.

 

So I still do not understand the distinction between using a shopkeep, or paying a guy to mow your lawn, and watching porn.

 

And I realize this is a point that people don't make a lot. People seem to intuitively understand the word "objectification". But I'm not being cheeky here. I think it deserves some serious though.

 

EDIT: I'll also take this opportunity to formally distance myself from Adieu's claim that men are genetically born leaders and stuff like that. Although I like his enthusiasm for not being judgmental of other people's sexual practices.

 

 

Haha it is true. I'm not saying women are not good leaders, but men are just genetically inclined to lead more often than not. Its like an instinct. I don't think either is actually more capable. Both sexes have natural traits that suit leadership roles.

[delet...]

ruh row.

[Adieu]

Umm no - do they ask her name? Get to know anything about her?

She is a sex object - might as well be two holes in a doll. Objectification - when someone else treats the person as nothing more than a commodity to use with little regard for the person's individuality.

By dominant position, I don't mean dominant as in the S+M sense of the word, I mean the woman is 90% of the time ordered to do what the man requests or demands.

 

Here have some more reading:

http://www.guardian....nes-pornography

http://knol.google.c...-t-want-to-see# (click on the links, they are not actual pictures, rather researched information)

http://www.thedailyb...?obref=obinsite (this one engages in some hyperbole, sure, but there are some relevant quotes and information as well)

 

AdieuErsatzEnnui (are you welcoming real boredom then?)

I'm glad you can be so dismissive of the articles without actually reading them.

 

They could just as easily being faking orgasms because men get off on the idea that they are able to pleasure women. Why does the object part have to come into play? That sounds like polarized nonsense to me. I know in my experience sometimes I have to tell my girlfriend to shut up because when she moans like crazy it makes me orgasm faster which I don't want to do. I would rather keep pleasuring the both of us. lol

 

Yo didn't you say earlier that sex is better when you're trying to please yourself? Why would you want to pleasure both of you?

 

"Roles in sex have equalized substantially because we as a society have learned to see value in women. Not because porn empowered them. Porn reduces them again to mere objects."

 

No roles have equalized because women have asserted themselves in society and because some men are open-minded enough to allow them. Also, some men understand that dominance is not a entirely male trait, but varies human to human

yeah, women stopped being satisfied with being walked all over, said "fuck you" and we learned how to appreciate the value of women. "Some men are open-minded enough to allow them" - does not jive with "women asserted themselves". Why should they have be allowed to do it? To seek permission?

 

Argh, you roped me in because I love to argue.

 

No, I saw the first one and I know of that lady and how full of shit she is. Yes, there are bad parts of the porn industry, but that doesn't make porn bad. That is the whole argument in one statement. That is all you need to realize. The problem with people thinking this way is that it fucks up society when you go in and try to make laws for everything or limit people's freedoms. Most of the time it is some douche politician trying to profit from people's fears. For every guy that gets addicted to heroin there are 30 that didn't. (just a random number)

 

This is an abstract concept so think in terms of sensation rather than logically. When you try really hard to pleasure someone else you lose the natural sensation that they gain from you actually performing in a way that is also pleasurable for you or that you take great pleasure in. It is more about energy and technique really. I perform in a way that I enjoy, she feels the energy and sensation from it. Coincidentally, the way that I enjoy is enjoyable for her thus we are both being pleasured, but I'm just as much focused on the fact that it feels good to me if not more so. Not that I don't take pleasure in pleasuring, because I do.

 

Actually, we appreciated women's value before, but they decided they wanted what we had as well and now we appreciate their ability to operate similarly to us. You didn't understand what I said. Some men were cool with them being independent and some weren't that is all it meant. In every struggle you have to have allies. Those men were the women's allies. It's like when you get job because you have a friend who is sympathetic to your needs and hooks you up.

[chenGOD]

Root5 if you can't understand the term objectification then there's no real hope for you. You're not objectifying a shopkeeper, because you're not purchasing him. you're using the object you purchase for a specific task. the women in porn, you use them to achieve an orgasm and then you dispose of them.

 

Wait wait, no hear me out. This is a serious point that I honestly believe in. I really think the word "objectification" is gibberish.

 

You said the important distinction is that you're not purchasing the shopkeep, you're purchasing the object. But in are still using the shopkeep. He gathers the stuff and puts it on the shelves for you. The pilot takes you to your destination.

 

With porn, well I'm not purchasing anything, so I don't see why purchasing was the distinction. You could say the porn makers are purchasing the actors, but they aren't. They are purchasing a service that the actors provide. How is that any worse than paying some people to mow your lawn?

 

The women in porn, I use them to achieve orgasm, that is true. But I use lots of people for lots of things. Right now I'm using you to have a discussion. I use my brother because he helps out with the dishes. And what do you mean by "dispose of them". I don't put them in trash cans. Would it be better if I called them up and expressed my appreciation? We all use each other all the time. The problem is when we treat each other in hurtful ways. If I say nasty things to someone, or I physically assault them, or scam them out of money. That is bad. But using someone in a way that doesn't do that, like watching a video someone has made available to me, or paying someone to mow my lawn, is totally acceptable. You can see it as how societies form. We help each other.

 

So I still do not understand the distinction between using a shopkeep, or paying a guy to mow your lawn, and watching porn.

 

And I realize this is a point that people don't make a lot. People seem to intuitively understand the word "objectification". But I'm not being cheeky here. I think it deserves some serious though.

 

 

 

Yes you are using me to carry out a conversation. But I am likewise using you. I have agency, autonomy, am not treated as if I am owned by you. I am not easily interchanged (fungible).

You are using the shopkeeper's services, not the shopkeeper himself. the object you purchase is the fungible commodity.

In porn, it is the women who is the fungible commodity. the men in the video use her - not her services.

yes the reverse can obviously happen, with men becoming objectified, and some feminist writers do argue against that.

 

boringman - you cant just say "she is full of shit" you have to actually you know, provide some studies to show why porn is good.

[delet...]

you have to actually you know, provide some studies to show why porn is good.

 

Porn is good ... I can vouch for this. And have participated in many studies into the matter which ably demonstrate the why. hphhrheh...

[Root5]

Yes you are using me to carry out a conversation. But I am likewise using you. I have agency, autonomy, am not treated as if I am owned by you. I am not easily interchanged (fungible).

You are using the shopkeeper's services, not the shopkeeper himself. the object you purchase is the fungible commodity.

In porn, it is the women who is the fungible commodity. the men in the video use her - not her services.

yes the reverse can obviously happen, with men becoming objectified, and some feminist writers do argue against that.

 

What is the distinction between using someone's services and using them? You say I'm using a shopkeep's services, but not the shopkeep himself. But, if I was a porn producer (well actually you said if I was the male porn actor in the scene with her) then I'm using her, herself. Not her services. Where is the distinction?

 

Is it because the woman's services involve the use of her body? If so, does manual labour count as objectivisation? Am I objectivising the men who I hire to lay down some patio stones (that's friggen hard work, yo). What about models in life-drawing class? Are they being objectivised? I've modelled for life-drawing before, and I was totally cool with it.

 

Sorry, you're kind of having two conversations. One with me and one with that other guy. So I understand if this is unpleasant for you. But I'm dead serious. Why is there objectivisation in sex/porn, but not in manual labour/life-drawing?

 

As I see it there is no distinction. We all use each other all the time. That's society. It's only a problem when you go against what somebody else wants (steal their stuff, etc).

[delet...]

True enough. I work in customer service and am constantly treated worse than the precious poop that probably comes out of the magical arses of some our most offensive customers. Then there's incoherent demands from management and the uncharitable scar trolls that i have to suffer for workmates. Not every working environment is fun. But you put up with it cause you need an income to live, and you still try your best because you want to keep your self respect.