Scotland

[Soloman Tump]

Never in my life have i voted, and actually felt like it would change a thing.

 

Therein lies half of the problem - voter apathy at election time. If everyone voted we would have a better representation at government level (although possibly not better candidates).

 

I love Scotland - a great place to visit. Lovely scenery, awesome whisky.

 

Good luck to the scots if they do manage to pull it off - but it is going to cause a head fuck for everyone in the UK for at least the next generation.

[pcock]

 

 

cheers to piers morgan for getting involved anyway.

 

im completely sure this is why david cameron has delegated the campaign to labour, hes smart enough to know full well even the sight of his face inspires a pure and righteous loathing in the hearts of almost everyone in Scotland.

[doublename]

When will we know for certain? This still has yet to enter the US media's consciousness.

[Soloman Tump]

When will we know for certain? This still has yet to enter the US media's consciousness.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/events/scotland-decides

 

18th September is voting day.

[doublename]

Thanks!

[BCM]

i reckon the scots will go for it...may as well, as messaien says, all the stuff about not using the pound and the scaremongering is bullshit and it seems the scots know it. also if it doesn't work out, of course they could re-enter the union at any time (despite what the government says), we would be very stupid not to let them back for monetary reasons alone.

 

interesting times indeed and it may well fuck up the rest of the UK - very likely in fact - but oh well, it's shit anyway. will be sad to see them go but good luck scotland. i think this could trigger a global shift and maybe be the beginning of a new order - seriously, the potential ramifications of this globally should not be underestimated.

[Npoess]

lol Piers Morgan

[delet...]

 

 

cheers to piers morgan for getting involved anyway.

 

im completely sure this is why david cameron has delegated the campaign to labour, hes smart enough to know full well even the sight of his face inspires a pure and righteous loathing in the hearts of almost everyone in Scotland.

 

lol, oh my lord, so he's secretly working for the yes campaign? Is that real?

[BCM]

the old "patronise them into saying no" trick eh? always works well...

[delet...]

He's enough of an egoist for me to believe that he actually may have posted something like this

[kakapo]

all the stuff about not using the pound and the scaremongering is bullshit and it seems the scots know it.

 

Nobody is saying the Scots can't use the pound. They can use it, but they won't have control of their own fiscal policy, i.e. setting interest rates. i.e. they won't actually be an independent nation, but they will have found a way to have nicked all the natural resources, which as of today belongs as much to you or me as it does to Jock McTavish of 39 Shortbread Avenue.

 

What has been ruled out is a currency union, where the BoE is effectively the lender of last resort to Scotland. i.e. you and me writing messiaen a blank cheque, because that is what it means in reality. This is political suicide, because even if the main parties go back on their word, come election time there'll be massive pressure to do away with it (UKIP will go against it and take even more votes from the other parties for a start).

 

Salmond is saying that Scotland has a right to the UKs institutions i.e. the BoE, or he'll renege on all debts. No he doesn't. Scotland may have a right to a proportion of the BoE assets in the form of currency reserves to back their own currency (they can even call it the pound if they want), but there is no right to a currency union. Both parties must be willing to enter into it and that is a point of negotiation where the UK government will act in the rUK's interests only. If independence happens Scotland has no more right to a currency union than Burkina Faso. That's not hyperbole or scaremongering. Salmond isn't an idiot, but he is a liar, and has deliberately obfuscated keeping the pound and currency union, which are two separate things.

 

There's lots of good arguments for independence, notably the idea of neo-liberalism vs the post war settlement, which is essentially the ideological divide (not counting Salmond in that, he's a chancer and pragmatist rather than ideologue). But currency is something that anyone voting needs to actually understand.

[anigbrowl]

Totally.

 

I'm Irish and spent about a decade in London and a couple of years up near Dundee. I completely understand the Scottish desire for independence, but I also think it would be a disaster - bad for the UK, bad for Europe, bad for the commonwealth and most of all bad for Scotland. At the moment we have a trend in the world of more fragmentation and isolationism, ironically because the internet makes it so easy for people to form little echo chambers where people who feel marginalized convince themselves that they're in a majority and stop trying to work for a broader consensus. If Scotland secedes from the UK it will be such a historic event that I think it will trigger a landslide of similar movements elsewhere, or give momentum to those that already exist.

 

The main reason I think it would be bad for Scotland: look at the history of former colonies that have gained independence from Britain. As often as not they wind up with civil war within a few years or at best very partisan political systems where the resentments that existed under colonial rule are institutionalized into political parties and fester for generations. I don't use the word 'disaster' lightly, even though I live over in California these days I'm very very disturbed about this. There are a lot of dangerous political divisions in the world right now, eg in Eastern Europe and in the Middle East. I feel like if we start giving up on each other politically we're in real danger of inadvertently sliding into another major war as happened in WW1.

 

I think Philip Larkin has something useful to say about historical relationships between different peoples, even though he was talking about families:

 

This Be The Verse

BY PHILIP LARKIN

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.

They may not mean to, but they do.

They fill you with the faults they had

And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn

By fools in old-style hats and coats,

Who half the time were soppy-stern

And half at one another’s throats.

Man hands on misery to man.

It deepens like a coastal shelf.

Get out as early as you can,

And don’t have any kids yourself.

 

[Audioblysk]

 

 

 

cheers to piers morgan for getting involved anyway.

 

im completely sure this is why david cameron has delegated the campaign to labour, hes smart enough to know full well even the sight of his face inspires a pure and righteous loathing in the hearts of almost everyone in Scotland.

 

lol, oh my lord, so he's secretly working for the yes campaign? Is that real?

 

what a cunt. He was a cunt when he tried to blag over to the states, and it seems he's still a cunt in his native environment

[poblequadrat]

 

Totally.

 

I'm Irish and spent about a decade in London and a couple of years up near Dundee. I completely understand the Scottish desire for independence, but I also think it would be a disaster - bad for the UK, bad for Europe, bad for the commonwealth and most of all bad for Scotland. At the moment we have a trend in the world of more fragmentation and isolationism, ironically because the internet makes it so easy for people to form little echo chambers where people who feel marginalized convince themselves that they're in a majority and stop trying to work for a broader consensus. If Scotland secedes from the UK it will be such a historic event that I think it will trigger a landslide of similar movements elsewhere, or give momentum to those that already exist.

 

The main reason I think it would be bad for Scotland: look at the history of former colonies that have gained independence from Britain. As often as not they wind up with civil war within a few years or at best very partisan political systems where the resentments that existed under colonial rule are institutionalized into political parties and fester for generations. I don't use the word 'disaster' lightly, even though I live over in California these days I'm very very disturbed about this. There are a lot of dangerous political divisions in the world right now, eg in Eastern Europe and in the Middle East. I feel like if we start giving up on each other politically we're in real danger of inadvertently sliding into another major war as happened in WW1.

 

I think Philip Larkin has something useful to say about historical relationships between different peoples, even though he was talking about families:

 

This Be The Verse

BY PHILIP LARKIN

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.

They may not mean to, but they do.

They fill you with the faults they had

And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn

By fools in old-style hats and coats,

Who half the time were soppy-stern

And half at one another’s throats.

Man hands on misery to man.

It deepens like a coastal shelf.

Get out as early as you can,

And don’t have any kids yourself.

 

 

 

if i understand you correctly, are you saying that belonging to a state which has had an empire at some point is the only possible route to universality and/or some idea of cosmopolitism for europeans? and that keeping ex-colonial states alive is the only way of not institutionalising colonial resentment?

[Schlitze]

 

Totally.

 

I'm Irish and spent about a decade in London and a couple of years up near Dundee. I completely understand the Scottish desire for independence, but I also think it would be a disaster - bad for the UK, bad for Europe, bad for the commonwealth and most of all bad for Scotland. At the moment we have a trend in the world of more fragmentation and isolationism, ironically because the internet makes it so easy for people to form little echo chambers where people who feel marginalized convince themselves that they're in a majority and stop trying to work for a broader consensus. If Scotland secedes from the UK it will be such a historic event that I think it will trigger a landslide of similar movements elsewhere, or give momentum to those that already exist.

 

The main reason I think it would be bad for Scotland: look at the history of former colonies that have gained independence from Britain. As often as not they wind up with civil war within a few years or at best very partisan political systems where the resentments that existed under colonial rule are institutionalized into political parties and fester for generations. I don't use the word 'disaster' lightly, even though I live over in California these days I'm very very disturbed about this. There are a lot of dangerous political divisions in the world right now, eg in Eastern Europe and in the Middle East. I feel like if we start giving up on each other politically we're in real danger of inadvertently sliding into another major war as happened in WW1.

 

I think Philip Larkin has something useful to say about historical relationships between different peoples, even though he was talking about families:

I knew Alistair Darling would sign up here when Syro was announced.

Listen, big baws, this Ireland>Dundee>London>California dream hangs about as heavy as Sean Connery's sack when he's about to take a dip in the pool in his Bahama's mansion's pool. Your post oozed fear... and as Gary Busey would say ''That is your truth''.

[delet...]

 

 

Totally.

 

I'm Irish and spent about a decade in London and a couple of years up near Dundee. I completely understand the Scottish desire for independence, but I also think it would be a disaster - bad for the UK, bad for Europe, bad for the commonwealth and most of all bad for Scotland. At the moment we have a trend in the world of more fragmentation and isolationism, ironically because the internet makes it so easy for people to form little echo chambers where people who feel marginalized convince themselves that they're in a majority and stop trying to work for a broader consensus. If Scotland secedes from the UK it will be such a historic event that I think it will trigger a landslide of similar movements elsewhere, or give momentum to those that already exist.

 

The main reason I think it would be bad for Scotland: look at the history of former colonies that have gained independence from Britain. As often as not they wind up with civil war within a few years or at best very partisan political systems where the resentments that existed under colonial rule are institutionalized into political parties and fester for generations. I don't use the word 'disaster' lightly, even though I live over in California these days I'm very very disturbed about this. There are a lot of dangerous political divisions in the world right now, eg in Eastern Europe and in the Middle East. I feel like if we start giving up on each other politically we're in real danger of inadvertently sliding into another major war as happened in WW1.

 

I think Philip Larkin has something useful to say about historical relationships between different peoples, even though he was talking about families:

 

This Be The Verse

BY PHILIP LARKIN

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.

They may not mean to, but they do.

They fill you with the faults they had

And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn

By fools in old-style hats and coats,

Who half the time were soppy-stern

And half at one another’s throats.

Man hands on misery to man.

It deepens like a coastal shelf.

Get out as early as you can,

And don’t have any kids yourself.

 

 

 

if i understand you correctly, are you saying that belonging to a state which has had an empire at some point is the only possible route to universality and/or some idea of cosmopolitism for europeans? and that keeping ex-colonial states alive is the only way of not institutionalising colonial resentment?

 

 

 

Sits nervously in australia a former colony wondering when we are going to get this internal strife and division that he was talking about.

[pcock]

whoops, had an old loadup of the thread up

[Schlitze]

Yeah so the last couple of weeks theres been a sway in the opinion polls and its about 51/49 in favour of Yes Indeed. Or 'on a knife-edge' in media terms.

There should have been a watmm poll. It's not too late, someone do one. Delet

[anigbrowl]

 

Sits nervously in australia a former colony wondering when we are going to get this internal strife and division that he was talking about.

 

 

I'm not saying it's inevitable, I'm saying that as often as not it does happen, and 50% odds on that sort of thing is too high for my taste. It's not going to affect me directly if it happens, as I don't have any family investments over there that would be affected by it, so when I say I think it's a bad idea I don't think I'm motivated by fear. Nor am I saying that it's a matter of preserving colonial sates - I also think it's a mistake for the UK not to enter more fully into Europe. Fragmented states and nationalism are IMHO an unhealthy holdover from the past, and the more fragmentation you have the more conflict that ensues. As a parallel, if you've travelled around Europe do you think it would be better to go back to having border inspections and customs checks between ever different country, and 20 different currencies with governments and middlemen siphoning off some cash from everyone changing their currency every time they had to cross a border? I don't, I think it's great that you can travel from Portugal to Poland without having to show your papers and account for your movements every time you cross over a border. That sort of practical liberty is IMHO worth a lot more than some abstract notion of sovereignty.

 

Piers Morgan is a sad old wanker but I personally wouldn't want to gamble the economy for the momentary satisfaction of annoying him and his pathetic ilk. It's not like he's suddenly going to respect you if you're in a different country.

[pcock]

Im not voting for that reason, i was merely congratulating him on getting involved because a statement of ''No'' from him works out nicely for me as a Yes voter because hes such a perfect tosser.

 

Im voting yes because it seems that scotland has an economy powerful enough to succeed, its clearly not going to be plain sailing, there will be work, and there will be hardship at the beginning im sure, but the opportunity to live in a country big enough and full of enough resources to sustain its considerably more modest population level, and in a country based on actual, logistical multi-party democracy, instead of the ridiculous farcical version of it down in westminster is far too good of an opportunity to give up.

 

bearing in mind here i am actually english aswell, and have only been scotland for 6 years. ive made my life here though and it feels more like home than being back down south ever did.

[Soloman Tump]

Im not voting for that reason, i was merely congratulating him on getting involved because a statement of ''No'' from him works out nicely for me as a Yes voter because hes such a perfect tosser.

 

Im voting yes because it seems that scotland has an economy powerful enough to succeed, its clearly not going to be plain sailing, there will be work, and there will be hardship at the beginning im sure, but the opportunity to live in a country big enough and full of enough resources to sustain its considerably more modest population level, and in a country based on actual, logistical multi-party democracy, instead of the ridiculous farcical version of it down in westminster is far too good of an opportunity to give up.

 

bearing in mind here i am actually english aswell, and have only been scotland for 6 years. ive made my life here though and it feels more like home than being back down south ever did.

So you get to vote even though you are English? How come I can't vote?

[pcock]

You have to be a resident, you dont have to be born in scotland, you just have to live here.

[anigbrowl]

So you get to vote even though you are English? How come I can't vote?

 

You can vote in Ireland too if you move over there, though British people usually don't bother because the Irish electoral system is so complicated. But you just put your name on the register same as at home. Effectively the citizenship for both countries is the same except you're only supposed to vote for one country at a time, ie no living in Ireland and voting in English elections or vice versa. Oh and you can't get a knighthood if you're Irish unless you inherited it. That's why bob Geldof is technically 'Mr. Robert Geldof' instead 'Sir Robert Geldof.'

 

Edit: oh turns out if you're British you can vote for Irish parliamentary elections and so on but not in referendums. Irish and commonwealth citizens can vote in any election if they're resident in the UK. Sorry about that chums, could have sworn it was the full monty.

[Bob Dylan]

VIVE L'ÉCOSSE LIBRE!

[Audioblysk]

VIVE L'ÉCOSSE LIBRE!