Scotland

[A Reggae Lee Bowyer]

Oh you're my wife now Scotland..

[MadameChaos]

I don't follow British politics that much, but how is Labour doing? Is seems socialist parties are doing really poorly around Europe.

 

Is it wrong for me to say that Labour in power, is probably the best for Scotland? (considering Scotland maybe being more leftist, and maybe a bit more progressive than the English conservatives?)

 

you're not wrong (if their pledges are anything to go by) but no one trusts labour now after Blair. most political parties in the UK seem much of a muchness.

[Npoess]

Again.. apologizes for my British politics ignorance, but how did the Conservatives even come to power? I mean there's an increasing polarization between rich and poor in Britain (that much I know), so who are even voting for them? (hope I don't step anybody on the toes here)

 

The Danish Conservatives have never been doing worse than they are now. So it just seems slightly strange to me, why it's the completely opposite in Britain. Is it anti-immigrant and Eurosceptic people who are voting for them or something?

 

I know Britain historically have quite a different relationship with the Conservatives. Maybe they don't have the same principle values as the Convervatives in my country and maybe I got the wrong idea of them, but I'd be interested to know why they are so popular.

[jhonny]

Again.. apologizes for my British politics ignorance, but how did the Conservatives even come to power? I mean there's an increasing polarization between rich and poor in Britain (that much I know), so who are even voting for them? (hope I don't step anybody on the toes here)

 

The Danish Conservatives have never been doing worse, in my country, than they are now. So it just seems slightly strange to me, why it's the completely opposite in Britain. Is it anti-immigrant people who are voting for them or something?

 

I know Britain historically have quite a different relationship with the Conservatives, and maybe they don't have the same values as the Convervatives in my country, but I'd be interested to know why they are so popular.

The previous labour government were pretty crap, and we were severe recession and it was inevitable that people would vote for a change.

 

Having said that, we don't have a tory government because they didn't get a majority in the election. The government is a coalition between the tories and the liberal democrats.

 

The tories have a strong rhetoric for things which are currently contentious in england (UK) - immigration, welfare state, benefits, EU (promised referendum if they get power next year). They've been able to tap into the working class (as have UKIP) on these issues where before they wouldn't have. However, there is still a strong north-south divide and england as a whole is relatively divided.

 

More simply, we have a lot of older voters who did well out of the tory governments in the 80s and they are loyal.

 

I think it's very unlikely that we'll have a tory government next year after the next GE.

[Npoess]

 

Again.. apologizes for my British politics ignorance, but how did the Conservatives even come to power? I mean there's an increasing polarization between rich and poor in Britain (that much I know), so who are even voting for them? (hope I don't step anybody on the toes here)

 

The Danish Conservatives have never been doing worse, in my country, than they are now. So it just seems slightly strange to me, why it's the completely opposite in Britain. Is it anti-immigrant people who are voting for them or something?

 

I know Britain historically have quite a different relationship with the Conservatives, and maybe they don't have the same values as the Convervatives in my country, but I'd be interested to know why they are so popular.

The previous labour government were pretty crap, and we were severe recession and it was inevitable that people would vote for a change.

 

Having said that, we don't have a tory government because they didn't get a majority in the election. The government is a coalition between the tories and the liberal democrats.

 

The tories have a strong rhetoric for things which are currently contentious in england (UK) - immigration, welfare state, benefits, EU (promised referendum if they get power next year). They've been able to tap into the working class (as have UKIP) on these issues where before they wouldn't have. However, there is still a strong north-south divide and england as a whole is relatively divided.

 

More simply, we have a lot of older voters who did well out of the tory governments in the 80s and they are loyal.

 

I think it's very unlikely that we'll have a tory government next year after the next GE.

 

 

Well, it's the same here. The main nationalistic party "Danish People Party" have never been more popular (which I fucking hate tbh).

 

But in a lot of ways they are the new Social Democrats, when they are not having a go at immigrants. They promise to take care of the elderly (which of course is a sympathetic move), but keeping the jobs for the "indigenous" (which is just fucking silly and reactionary). But xenophobia is on the rise, and with the history Europe has with nationalism, I can't help but getting slightly depressed by that fact.

 

This hasn't anything to do with the Conservatives of course, which as I mentioned are doing poorly here, but with so much of the working class's needs being overlooked, it's strange to me why we are seeing such tendencies in Britain. But I have very historical and ideological way of looking at parties, that might be my problem.

 

(sorry for going sligtly off-topic)

[Bechuga]

I hope that berk Cameron + other westminster cronies do give more powers to Scotland and other countries in the UK. Too dangerous to keep all the power/money in one city in the south of England.

[Guest volg4]

how can nearly everyone agree that politics in the UK is fucked (under the control of the social elite, the banks and big business for the benefit of themselves)

yet we're the haters destroying something beautiful if we make any attempt to change that?

 

im fucking embarrassed to be scottish, a chance for change with the world watching and we shat it...

 

what now? hand everything over to the banks and friends (again)?

 

anyone else got any ideas? just bend over and spread those cheeks? wait till the next election, then we'lll show'em?

 

awesome

 

sadface.jpg

 

[Guest volg4]

i know...

 

why dont we let wales have total control of ALL tax revenue from the UK for the next 300 years to spend as they see fit, then for the 300 years after that, Ireland gets complete control over all UK tax to spend as they see fit, then for the next 300 years scotland gets controll over all the tax...

 

then back round to englands turn... simple and fair?

[anigbrowl]

However, as much as I don't want to see a reneging on the issue of greater devolved powers, it would be wise to not rush into the new set-up as it's going to need proper consideration that stands independent of individual political persuasions (however much of a pipe dream that ultimately may be).

 

This is a very good point. When I first to the US I was super-impressed that you could vote on everything - here you have elections for president, congressional represenatative, US senator, governor, state repreetnative, state senator, mayor, supervisor, district attorney (prosecutor), public defender, school board, planning commission and a bunch of others that I've probably forgotten about. Oh and judges are elected in many American states (which I think is an utterly dreadful idea). In California (though this is not true for every state) there's also referendums every single year, amending laws or even the state constitution, and referendums at the county and even the city level on everything from setting tax levels to allowing or preventing gay marriage or similarly drastic things. Oh, and the referendums (which are called ballot initiatives here) can be put up for a vote by the governor, the legislature, the mayor or county board, or by collecting enough signatures from the egeneral public. There are often 40 or 50 of them every year in California.

 

So when I arrived I was like 'yeah! so much democracy! power to the people!' and so on. Ireland's pretty much the same as the UK, we have parliamentary elections every 3-5 years unless something drastic happens that causes a government to fall, and council and European elections which not many people care about. Once every 20 years or so there's a referendum, and in Ireland we also elect a President (but unlike the US the Irish president takes little part in politics - s/he is more like the Queen as a head of state. The Irish president can veto a piece of legislation in the same way the Queen could refuse to sign something, but this almost never happens - only once in my lifetime, and that was where there was an obvious constitutional problem).

 

But sadly all this democracy doesn't really make politics any better. Instead there's just a flurry of political ads every autumn (more in even-numbered years because of Congressional elections and Presidential elections every 4 years), only about 45% of people vote, and only 30% of the people who vote have any serious grasp of the issues. Every newspaper and political organization (such as unions and 'political action committees') put out 'endorsement lists' recommending who you should vote for and whether you should vote yes or no* on the various ballot initiatives. So most people just take the endorsement car from their favorite newspaper/politcal party/interest group to the polls with them and copy it onto the ballot sheet. Before the election every voter is sent a thick book (easily 100+ pages in California) with every candidate and the full legal text of every ballot initiative and paid-for arguments for or against (anyone can put their opinion on any votable issue into this book for a small fee, like $50). Almost nobody reads through these - I am the only person I know who reads the whole thing every election time, even friends of mine who are lawyers think I'm daft for poring over all the legal text and so on. But since I'm not a citizen and can't vote I am sort of obsessed about it

 

* It's striking that the ballot initiatives/referendums are always restricted to yes/no questions, by law. There's no provision for multiple options, and of course this gets heavily abused by political organizations.

 

The upshot of this is that voters have vastly more power here than they do in any other country on Earth (except maybe Switzerland?), but there's so much to vote on that it's very difficult to fully inform oneself on all the issues and make good choices - I honestly don't think that more than 1% of voters have the time and mental capacity to do so. By 'good choices' here I don't necessarily mean 'vote the same way I would' but 'vote in an informed way that's consistent with your political views - whatever those views are.' There's too much to vote on and some of the ballot initiatives are insanely complex, so it's not unusual for people to vote one way because something sounds good only to discover a couple of years later that the actual legal text was written in such a way as to give the opposite result.

 

So the initiative process can be massively manipulated and voters are basically treated like casino chips, to be bought and sold by political organizations that deal in huge amounts of money. The last Presidential election involved over $1 billion dollars of political advertising. Electioneering is a straight-up industry over here and because of the first Amendment to the Constitution (which guarantees free speech) it's almost impossible to get the money out of politics or regulate the contents of political advertising in any way. It is perfectly legal to put adverts on TV or on the internet containing the most blatant lies or bullshit - the philosophy is that 'the cure for speech is more speech' and the marketplace of ideas will sort it all out. This is partly why so many Americans believe in ridiculous conspiracy theories - quite a few of them originate in bullshit political advertising or comments by political candidates.

 

So I guess what I'm saying is that there's a danger in going from too little democratic accountability (which is a problem in most European countries) to Democracy For Everything - you can paralyze people and keep them in line by presenting such a vast and confusing array of choices that most of them stop paying attention and the democratic process gets hijacked by professional political consultants.

[anigbrowl]

"We have heard the voice of Scotland and now the millions of voices of England must be heard" david cameron today.

 

we . are. fucked. and we chose it ourself.

 

I think that's a bit more to do with English devolution, and the West Lothian Question.

[delet...]

i know... why dont we let wales have total control of ALL tax revenue from the UK for the next 300 years to spend as they see fit, then for the 300 years after that, Ireland gets complete control over all UK tax to spend as they see fit, then for the next 300 years scotland gets controll over all the tax... then back round to englands turn... simple and fair?

 

 

hah, nice one. [-;

[tec]

I didn't think I cared but the result made me a bit angry, the jocks got the nerves put up them by the politicians and fucking bottled it.

[pcock]

the orange march bigots are out rioting in george square. 2 stabbed, one dead apparently. attacking yes voters, fights in the streets. chaos. the bbc are notably absent.

really sad for scotland right now.

[Guest volg4]

 

 

name="tec" post="2223968" timestamp="1411165271"]

 

I didn't think I cared but the result made me a bit angry, the jocks got the nerves put up them by the politicians and fucking bottled it.

 

 

by the politicians and the media and big business... you had tesco bank and standard life and john lewis all coming out (after talks at no.10) saying that prices would go up and mortgages would go up and everyone started moving headquarters down south... then obama stuck in his oar and those eu cants...

 

if we're an expensive drain and such subsidy junkies why all the fuckin interest all of a sudden? i've never heard of 100 labour folks jumping on a train from london and firing up to sweaty sock land before? and cameron, clegg, milliband AND farage? for little old us?

 

yep, everyone bottled it, well 55% bottled it....

[Guest volg4]

 

the orange march bigots are out rioting in george square. 2 stabbed, one dead apparently. attacking yes voters, fights in the streets. chaos. the bbc are notably absent.

 

really sad for scotland right now.

 

 

that sounds shit mate, hope you're not out in that tonight or anywhere near it...

[pcock]

all powers promised last minute to save the union have basically been scrapped in under 24 hours.

im at home getting drunk dude, ive sent messages to all my friends out in town warning them to take off any Yes badges or scottish flags.

 

the unionists are burning saltires and screaming homophobic abuse at people. so sad.

[xox]

is it out yet?

[pcock]

is what out?

[Guest volg4]

name="messiaen" post="2223989" timestamp="1411167311"]

 

all powers promised last minute to save the union have basically been scrapped in under 24 hours.

 

im at home getting drunk dude, ive sent messages to all my friends out in town warning them to take off any Yes badges or scottish flags.

 

the unionists are burning saltires and screaming homophobic abuse at people. so sad.

 

cool, hope your friends are safe too, what a way to end such a seemingly peacful process...

totally expected all 'promises' to evaporate...

 

 

Socialist campaigner Tommy Sheridan:

 

"Bosses, bankers, billionaires and millionaires unite with Labour MPs, Tories, UKIP and the UK establishment to celebrate Project Fear."

[Bechuga]

Man, that really IS sad: to not be able to wear your own god damn flag in your own country lest a bunch of pricks beat you up. And by your own countrymen too! The irony = unionists being anything but unified with their own people.

 

I think I might start drinking too.

[pcock]

https://twitter.com/SkepticBosnjak/status/513092922573860864/photo/1

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTDFJ15Mg7U

[poblequadrat]

bloody hell...

i'm pretty sad to be honest, but i'm a complete outsider so i can't really say much and i'll probably make some embarrassing remarks. well, if the unionists don't behave themselves, either in the streets or up in government, then it's going to be a question of time anyway. you'll see!

[kakapo]

Those idiots are no more representative of 'unionists' than Isis is of Moslems you daft plebs.

[poblequadrat]

Those idiots are no more representative of 'unionists' than Isis is of Moslems you daft plebs.

 

yeah. keep in mind i come from a country where complete centralisation, jailing our premier and sending in the army is a possibility for some (who happen to be in power, and who happen to be capitalising on the scottish defeat in a rather opportunistic fashion). i guess you're just not as much of a backwards country as we are, which is great. as i said, i'm an outsider. but it seems to be a general political rule that hard-line unionism breeds separatism.

[pcock]

sorry, not unionists, orange march cunts then. whatever you want to call them. hateful idiots either way.