depression

[Kavinsky]

^ psychiatrists diagnose and medicate, psychologists have more of an ongoing conversation with you to tease out problems and better resolve longstanding hardwired emotional issyues. the emphasis in Australia is much more on psychologists.

 

 

my aunt is a psychiatrist specialized on psychoanalysis based on C.G. Jung (super weird stuff btw) that means a lot of talking.  I visited here yesterday cause i had an emergency  anxiety problem and she asked me if i can recall something negative from before i was 1 year old and i was like what is this shit but  then she made a statement which felt like a sword being pushed threw me and i went total calm and that whole conversation took about 15 min. My current therapist cant do shit like that lol

 

Kattin did you ever went to a support group or group based session cause the group practice i´m visiting offers that and i´m not sure to go, any experience ?

Edited March 22, 2018 by Kavinsky

[KovalainenFanBoy]

 

[cichlisuite]

my experience has been the other way round, 1/4 of the value comes from talking about it and 3/4 from gritting my teeth and just pushing myself to do stuff I should do instead of running away from. long term emotional growth has only come from the latter for me. I never found real catharsis in talking. may just be me, idk.

Agreed. Talking helps to alleviate some burden, but it's very temporary, at least to my experience. My mind works on turbo constantly and it's very easy to fall back into that downward spiral of thoughts. The only thing that really helps is physical exertion. I get on my bike and pedal the shit out or go hiking for several days. It clears the mind and the reward hormones are the real drug. After that I am capable to work very efficiently for a day or two. The biggest issue is emotional trust for me after having several nasty episodes. I had the feeling I could never again trust anyone, and realizing I am completely on my own to rely on and do everything was the hardest but at the same time the most catharsical and liberating. Transformation is key; it's like molding clay or something, however, it is an ongoing process. As Bruce Lee once said: be like water ...

[goDel]

But talking is not just about alleviating a burden, isn't it? It's more about verbalizing what's going on. Either talk with a pro or journal your inner life could be equally effective. Verbalizing is an essential part of the learning process. No matter if it's 1/4 or 3/4 of the equation. You can't go without it. It might alleviate a bit, because you create a new perspective on your inner life. But in doing so, you also learn about your inner life. How it works. How much is bullshit. How much is real. How much it is keeping you back from doing the things you actually want. Learning about that inner dialogue might be a central of a depression.

 

To an extent you might just punch your way out of your hole by doing stuff. But it really depends on the conditions of how you ended up in that hole in the first place whether or not that's going to be effective.

 

If talking is just for alleviation, I think you've missed the point. Or rather, if you just want to talk to a mental healthcare provider for allevation, you might as well talk to some random person. The mental healthcare provider is there to help you untangle and deal with your inner dialogue. In order to go beyond a short term allevation, you really have to study and learn about your inner dialogue. For which some form of verbalization is a necessity.

[dingformung]

 i can tell u joke how do u calla bee that lives in america?? a USB hahahaha

[Polytrix]

Brilliant thread. I actually think the somewhat anonymous platform of a forum of this kind really lends itself to sharing open experiences and insights. I'm considering sharing my experience of CBT here when I can in the hope that maybe it can help others. My difficulties have not exclusively been rooted in enduring depression but I had a seriously horrible bout of anxiety/depression which I've worked my way out of but that was more related to low self esteem as a product of certain aspects of my upbringing. At this stage, I would say working with a professional is helping me tremendously and would definitely recommend it to others. Trying to change ingrained cognitive/behavioural patterns is seriously challenging to adapt independently when you have grown used to it as a coping mechanism but we all have massive potential to change and bring a greater sense of balance to our cognitive biases. I feel a lot of this is achieving a greater sense of balance/perspective in life. I'll shut up now but yeah, seeking help has brought me tremendous optimism and hope.

[Polytrix]

Godel has absolutely nailed it there too. Totally agree with all of that. It's absolutely astounding to me to start to objectively recognise how much absolutely unhelpful shit flows through my mind on a regular basis. You've got to do a lot more than simply talk about that stuff to alleviate it long term, you've got to learn abilities to cancel out the bs and bring back a sense of balance and in my case, self-worth. I've been on the edge of genuinely wanting to end it all a few times as I simply didn't think I could cope with the way my mind is hard-wired but do you know what, fuck the wiring!

[cichlisuite]

But talking is not just about alleviating a burden, isn't it? It's more about verbalizing what's going on. Either talk with a pro or journal your inner life could be equally effective. Verbalizing is an essential part of the learning process. No matter if it's 1/4 or 3/4 of the equation. You can't go without it. It might alleviate a bit, because you create a new perspective on your inner life. But in doing so, you also learn about your inner life. How it works. How much is bullshit. How much is real. How much it is keeping you back from doing the things you actually want. Learning about that inner dialogue might be a central of a depression.

 

To an extent you might just punch your way out of your hole by doing stuff. But it really depends on the conditions of how you ended up in that hole in the first place whether or not that's going to be effective.

 

If talking is just for alleviation, I think you've missed the point. Or rather, if you just want to talk to a mental healthcare provider for allevation, you might as well talk to some random person. The mental healthcare provider is there to help you untangle and deal with your inner dialogue. In order to go beyond a short term allevation, you really have to study and learn about your inner dialogue. For which some form of verbalization is a necessity.

 

Well I was being very general, and didn't want to write too long a post going into details. Of course, I agree that correct verbalization is an important (first) step. You can dissect the 'types' of talking and types of situations, and they offer different results and circumstances (depending on the level of your problem). If your issue lies in an unresolved relationship with another person for instance, talking with that person might help 100%. If you have issues with own perception of problems, talking to a friend or professional counselor can provide different levels of resolve. What I meant with temporary was that every situation requires action. Because we often deceive ourselves, we even forget. Everyday life accumulates and the fog descends again. You can easily find yourself in a similar dark thought patterns as before. What I mean is, talking gives you a certain confidence boost that helps you face it, because in the end you still have to change your ways and adapt; that is to say, I see talking as a step in the process and not a solution by itself.

[Polytrix]

Totally agree yeah! I wasn't saying you were 'wrong' or anything of that kind so please don't interpret it that way Talking it out is definitely a major part of the process yeah. I've had to discuss quite a lot of hard-truths which are very upsetting and I feel could only have been elicited by a trained, objective professional. My therapist is very strict but friendly at the same time and I really feel you need that as you need to face up to the negative ways of thinking that have dominated/biased your thoughts. Again, I'm only speaking from personal experience and although I've done a lot of reading I really don't consider myself an expert at all so I don't want to come across as a know it all...I'm not. If anyone however is Uk based and wants some advice on how to pursue help on the NHS/ private with regards to seeking professional help I can help a lot with that!

[goDel]

@Godwin: Fair. 

 

If you mean with "changing your ways and adapt" is also about mental hygiene and not just about the behavioural aspect of it (actions), I'd largely agree. I'd like to stress though that mental hygiene is not necessarily about having a certain perception, and put a sharp distinction between perceptions and inner dialogue. These are simply different pieces of the puzzle.

 

Getting out of a depression also requires training the mental muscles to regain a sense of mental sanity (=getting a grip on your inner dialogue). And talking to a mental worker can be part of that training regimen. The question is how you gain a long term impact from either talking or verbalising. I assume a depression is a symptom of a structural problem. Exercising, talking, writing or even taking medicines or drugs all present some kind of temporal relief. And with luck, with time passing you can grow out of your depression. Can happen.

 

The thing with writing/talking (verbalising) in general though, is that changing your inner dialogue (or your inner logic) has a higher chance of a lasting impact. In a way your internal dialogue is a representation of your internal operating system. And insight in your internal operating system enables you to update it.

 

For instance, you can overcome issues with your body image simply by exercising your way out of it. Or changing your ways or lifestyle, if you will. But what if you stop exercising? Maybe you've learned in the process that your appearance doesn't really have as much of an impact as you initially assumed. And you've moved a step beyond where you've started. I'd argue that the "lesson" is the cure and the exercise the means to create access to that lesson.

 

But if you cut out the "lesson", you'd be back at square one. Without the "lesson" you'd remain dependent on any kind of temporary medicine. Be it exercise an actual drug, or a diet or whatever kind of "lifestyle" change you attempted.

 

I'd repeat myself in arguing the "lesson" implies a verbalisation. Or backwards: if you can't verbalise it, you're not cured.

 

For the sake of the argument, lets just assume changing your ways is different to changing your lifestyle. I'd agree with that.

[Polytrix]

The way you describe 'mental hygiene' is so on the money. I genuinely think in a few years having a regular mental health check and being given informational and tasks to address issues will be as common as being prescribed with meds from your GP for picking up a virus or something.

[goDel]

Thanks.

 

I don't want to crush your hopes, but I personally don't believe in tools helping you to check your mental hygiene. Would it be some checklist to fill in? Perhaps some biochemical measurements? A scan of how your brain responds to stimuli?

 

I don't believe mental hygiene can be measured directly. At least not in the general grey area where there isn't a neurophysiological deficit which could be physically traced.

 

Mental hygiene belongs in the "cogito ergo sum" department. It's highly personal and only available to yourself. So the only way to check your mental hygiene, is to learn yourself how to check it. The only available tool is your own brain.

 

This might change in a future where you can upload your brain to some kind of internet. But that's really science fiction at this point in time, I believe. And perhaps even fiction without science, because it implies consciousness can be reduced to some kind of algorithm, or model. (putting aside the "emergent property" argument for a bit)

[Kavinsky]

After my session today i was angry at my therapist because i asked him what i can do in certain situations where i get very anxious and he didnt really had a clue or seemed to put some effort in it.
so afterwards i went straight to the library and borrowed a book about social anxiety and after 30min of reading i found some helpful tips and ideas. so WTF are they learning at the university for 51/2 years if he cant even give me some basic suggestions on my problem ??!?
 

[Polytrix]

Yeah Godel I see what you mean. I didn't really mean it that way. I mean it more in the sense that (hopefully) offering practical advice/targeted tasks to help people with mental health difficulties can hopefully improve and thus practical advice (not just medication) can be offered better. From a UK perspective it seems to me that access to mental health advice is severely lacking and it needs to be more of an integrated service...I see what you mean though, identifying the specific issues is a seriously difficult thing to do and people need better guidance to do that themselves. I've spent months thinking oh I must have this/that disorder and it took a registered CBT professional 1 hour to absolutely nail down my difficulties and outline an approach to how to help. I've had to go through a lot of loops and other steps to get here. It's so difficult but I hope they can increase the number of mental health professionals to help improve this - like access to a mental health professional as easy as you can get to see your GP. I also think there should be a dedicated like BBC channel like 'BBC Health' or something with loads of quality information just to improve understanding. Just ideas.

[Polytrix]

Kavinsky I've had similar moments where I've got a bit annoyed that I'm not told exactly what to do but what I've learnt, I think, is that it's a lot more powerful and long lasting for you to identify those techniques yourself. I know where you're coming from though, it's kind of frustrating but stick with it.

[goDel]

For now I'd recommend: https://www.youtube.com/user/schooloflifechannel :)

[cwmbrancity]

After my session today i was angry at my therapist because i asked him what i can do in certain situations where i get very anxious and he didnt really had a clue or seemed to put some effort in it.

so afterwards i went straight to the library and borrowed a book about social anxiety and after 30min of reading i found some helpful tips and ideas. so WTF are they learning at the university for 51/2 years if he cant even give me some basic suggestions on my problem ??!?

 

 

 

it might depend on the diagnosis, a friend was diagnosed with emotionally unstable personality disorder which, if you knew him, you'd have called for a 2nd opinion

 

he did & the diagnosis was binned

 

EMDR is something that can genuinely help you reprocess past experiences which may contribute to an individual's levels of anxiety & depression:

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?ei=2n26Wuz0FcfXgAbRybn4CQ&q=emdr+therapy&oq=emdr+thera&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0i131i67k1j0i67k1l2j0l2j0i67k1j0l4.2990.4416.0.6078.6.3.0.3.3.0.76.208.3.3.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.6.244....0.okuVDXCjFOU

 

i've been doing it off/on since autumn 2014, highly highly recommended although a long way to go

 

the way it can dredge up memories of traumatic experiences & gradually reframe them, through reprocessing, is something thats the closest i've had to a religious experience or should that be revelation

 

its savagely brutal, so you're not talking your way to healing through this method or just riding along with it through pharmacology, because the "life map" element is the main talking/reference point, in the same way you dont kill a weed by spraying the foliage, you target the main root stems themselves

 

part of the reprocessing (i'm convinced) happens in dreams.....if i kept a post-emdr dream diary it would make Twin Peaks S03 look like the Telly Tubbies

 

point is, it can work v well on reducing anxiety because its usually done in conjunction with a bit of DBT & you'll be amazed how the mind can recall events from decades ago in such clarity - smells, textures, images, thoughts, sensations, moods, things people were wearing etc, as long as you're honest with yourself & communicate with the EMDR therapist clearly, they can guide you through the darkest murkiest shit in the world out toward something resembling normality

 

problem with public health programs are the waiting lists & disruptions through staff shortages, but it was only after i was well into the sessions that buried and more recent events began to make sense, if that makes sense, and how they accumulate

 

it might read like snake oil, but the evidence base is growing & already extensive, if it had the faintest whiff of bs i wouldnt preach it, but its efficacy is staggering, honestly shudder @ where i'd be w/out it

 

if you're finding cbt isnt quite clicking yet, this route might be an alternative, cos while everyone has shit to deal with in this life the cards dealt can be truly vicious for some

 

do you write yourself off & curl up in a bottle? fuck no, you excavate your own psyche with the help of a pro & get busy exorcising out the demons, they wont like that, its their home after all, but everyone deserves a fair crack @ healing & EMDR is one of the most profound methods out there

 

thats why, with more entrenched & embedded forms of depression, EMDR might be the breakthrough therapy for certain client profiles

Edited March 27, 2018 by cwmbrancity

[Polytrix]

Yeah I've read about emdr. Very interesting.

 

I honestly feel as though any form of targeted therapy led by a pro which gets you to face entrenched demons and learn new ways of thinking/behaving can only be a good thing.

 

It's definitely not easy though. I'm highly motivated and very open with my therapist to the point of ending up in tears during or after each session personally. In a way, I see that as progress. Gotta hash up some shit before you can understand it.

[cichlisuite]

If you mean with "changing your ways and adapt" is also about mental hygiene and not just about the behavioural aspect of it (actions), I'd largely agree. I'd like to stress though that mental hygiene is not necessarily about having a certain perception, and put a sharp distinction between perceptions and inner dialogue. These are simply different pieces of the puzzle.

 

...

 

Certainly, you cannot choose the appropriate action without mental hygiene. What defines a person is one's thoughts and emotions with actions that spring from it. A goal is of course to harmonize the three that are in constant observation and improvement of one another. This cycle also improves perception, which further improves inner dialogue.

 

Lessons, as you put it, can be tricky. How do you know if the lesson you've learned is right, or if you came to the bottom of the issue? There's always another hill behind the one you're climbing now. You should not be too quick to use a lesson as an indicator that you have progressed and stop there. To use your example of exercising and expand: you should not exercise solely because someone told you your body looks bad, or because everyone is obsessed with gym these days and if you're not showing your sixpack you're not worthy of a female companion or respect, or, when you look yourself in the mirror you like what you see... You should exercise because it is healthy -- because the body was designed to move and work -- because that is the default way. Because of that, you will look better, feel better and it allows you to pursue your goals in life prepared. So there can't really be a healthy thought pattern that can suggest to stop exercising whatever the idea that you have dealt with your appearance or that it doesn't have an impact as initially presumed. If you do, then you're still fooling yourself. So what is that 'lesson'? Is that, you can't never get respect in the eyes of others, if you don't respect yourself. That is, to take care of your vehicle (body), because it is a means to achieve goals in your life. Which sends out information to other people that you know what is good for you and that you can take care of yourself. However, people tend to stop when they achieved their sixpacks and take the Machiavellian view and claim power over people. Then this claimed power corrupts your soul and you later down the line become miserable because you can't sleep at night and hate yourself because you're mean to people and they hate you for it. Now I'm really stretching this example, but only to prove my point, so I hope you understand what is my intention here.

 

So yeah, it is a symptom of a structural problem, and it entails action as well. With talking and writing you can define problems, and with actions you deploy solutions. Because actions are the direct results of your thoughts and they feed back in a positive way that fills the circle. This new structure is then a better, updated version of the 'engine' which can then move forward again.

[Suffocate Peon]

Probably going to have to commit suicide in the future. It's not ideal, i wanted to see what culture will bring, especially the year 2049 (won't make 2097 *shakes fist*). I have no skills, no prospects, no job, dwindling money, and time running out. I mean I can be homeless, or close to it and permanently fast. Eat 20 grains of rice a day. I think if I was to sit and say to someone the above, they'd say oh my god what's wrong. the other bit. if you don't have a job you're nothing. Your job might be nothing, but you're being paid so it must have value, no one pays for no reason. I like to say to people who want to enforce a life that wouldn't be mine with; 'you know what most people say on their death bed? That they wished they had the courage to reject living the life expected of them' but, really, at least they reached a death bed.

[Polytrix]

Just to say that suicide is not a solution to anything and never will be under any circumstance. If you want to talk to someone objective about those feelings I used the webchat service here a few times which helped:

 

https://www.thecalmzone.net/help/get-help/

 

If you've struggled with these thoughts for a long time then I strongly recommend you seeking professional help. Being unemployed is hard but there is so much more value to your life which you don't seem to be considering beyond that and that could be the impact of depression on your mind set.

 

Talk to people who love and care for you about how you feel and if that's too hard talk to an objective professional. You'll get past this, it's temporary.

[cwmbrancity]

Probably going to have to commit suicide in the future. It's not ideal, i wanted to see what culture will bring, especially the year 2049 (won't make 2097 *shakes fist*). I have no skills, no prospects, no job, dwindling money, and time running out. I mean I can be homeless, or close to it and permanently fast. Eat 20 grains of rice a day. I think if I was to sit and say to someone the above, they'd say oh my god what's wrong. the other bit. if you don't have a job you're nothing. Your job might be nothing, but you're being paid so it must have value, no one pays for no reason. I like to say to people who want to enforce a life that wouldn't be mine with; 'you know what most people say on their death bed? That they wished they had the courage to reject living the life expected of them' but, really, at least they reached a death bed.

 

check list:

 

• GP appointment asap, full disclosure, ask for referral to your local "primary care mental health team" for assessment (CMHT)
• get an advocacy service to attend, google "mental health advocacy + your home location" = voila, they're the only people a GP will listen to if you're not forceful enough, because
• there's a "secondary care community mental health team" for medium/long term options & you usually need to see the primary care dept first
• friends, family, talk now
• the system is a cunt, hence the above, just trust me there's an alternative way out of the head labyrinth, but you need a map for the matrix
• GP's are open 8am on first come basis, get the fuck there asap, if you aint in the mood for an early start, ask for an "urgent appointment" later in day

 

are any of the English crew or moderators familiar with this member?

[Polytrix]

Yeah hope he/she's sought help.

Very troubling. Please talk to someone asap if you are still reading this thread. Help is out there.

[zlemflolia]

You'll get past this, it's temporary.

 

I've been saying that to myself my whole life

[Polytrix]

Sorry dude. Didn't mean to imply it's not necessarily an enduring struggle for many. I do think it's important to stay optimistic that change is possible - perhaps that's more my point