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anonymstol

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"You're obliged to pretend respect for people and institutions you think absurd. You live attached in a cowardly fashion to moral and social conventions you despise, condemn and know lack all foundation. It is that permanent contradiction between your ideas and desires and all the dead formalities of your civilization which makes you sad, troubled and unbalanced. In that intolerable conflict you lose all joy of life and all feeling of personality, because at every moment they suppress and restrain and check the free play of your powers. That's the poisoned and mortal wound of the civilized world."

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I don't mean to be an old man, but I do believe that our fast paced and busy modern society has something to do with it, especially the anxiety disorders.

Oh definitely.

 

 

We evolved to thrive in a slow-paced environment, walking outside many hours a day (which was an hour or two longer), with a natural diet and a strong communal sense-of-identity.

 

I think that accounts for alot.

Edited by LimpyLoo
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I realized that my body and head were connected when it comes to happiness. This is a very recent discovery to me, as stupid as it sounds.

I have found If I -

  • Drink a shitload of water, 64 to 96oz minimum (1892.71ml to 2839.06ml for you metric folk)
  • Eat no sweets, drink no soda and eat no bread or pasta
  • Run 3 times a week for 2 to 3 miles and lift weights/pushups/situps daily
  • Don't drink booze or have caffeine

I'm happy as a clam

 

I slip on the booze thing and the occasional bread, but overall, since starting this I feel amazing.

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anybody try out any of these biofeedback devices or apps to help relieve depression/aid meditation? On the surface it seems like a total gimmick but i tried one out the other week and I was very surprised how effective it seemed to be.

GW-HeartMath-Inner-Balance-articleInline



this one in particular is based on the very simple principal of coherent and smooth transitions between heart/pulse rate fluctuations. Apparently some studies have shown that by managing these transitions between pulse fluctuations it can actually improve your mood. It could be total bullshit, but im curious.

edit: essentially its like a mini game, with red blue and green indicators over time. The more 'smooth' your transitions are of your pulse, the light will go to green, the more erratic the transitions are it will go to red. It reads these transitions surprisingly fast, so for example if you are thinking peaceful thoughts and its green for a while, the moment you think of a troubling or anxiety provoking though it will usually turn red. So its not simply based on a slow or fast rate, its based entirely on the smoothness of the transitions between when it goes slow and fast Edited by John Ehrlichman
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@john (fucking quote system isn't working)

 

I've not used them, but I plan on getting the HM iphone sensor and beginning down that road of development.

 

I don't think there is any reason to doubt the ideas behind things like HRV and biofeedback.

 

I was going to say this earlier in the thread, but I think the next step for humans in finding well-being and improving ourselves is via the use of diagnostic tools and technological aids.

 

Supposedly, you can use a heart rate monitor to pretty accurately diagnose food allergies. Simple things like taking your temperature can aid you in diagnosing metabolic and hormonal problems.

 

I don't think anyone can expect to be at their happiest if they are not functioning at their highest. Caring for yourself biologically is the first step in this in my opinion. Using drugs seems like a Band-Aid to me.

 

But the most important thing is that these technologies become available to as many people as possible.

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Guest fiznuthian

I realized that my body and head were connected when it comes to happiness. This is a very recent discovery to me, as stupid as it sounds.

I have found If I -

  • Drink a shitload of water, 64 to 96oz minimum (1892.71ml to 2839.06ml for you metric folk)
  • Eat no sweets, drink no soda and eat no bread or pasta
  • Run 3 times a week for 2 to 3 miles and lift weights/pushups/situps daily
  • Don't drink booze or have caffeine

I'm happy as a clam

 

I slip on the booze thing and the occasional bread, but overall, since starting this I feel amazing.

 

Solid plan!

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I realized that my body and head were connected when it comes to happiness. This is a very recent discovery to me, as stupid as it sounds.

I have found If I -

  • Drink a shitload of water, 64 to 96oz minimum (1892.71ml to 2839.06ml for you metric folk)
  • Eat no sweets, drink no soda and eat no bread or pasta
  • Run 3 times a week for 2 to 3 miles and lift weights/pushups/situps daily
  • Don't drink booze or have caffeine
I'm happy as a clam

 

I slip on the booze thing and the occasional bread, but overall, since starting this I feel amazing.

Solid plan!

Yeah, that's cool man. I wouldn't want to live without carbs or the occasional beer, but cleaning up diet is a really fun, awesome thing to do. I love eating food that makes me feel good.

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The other problem with depression and other emotional disorders is, unfortunately, that the answer to beating it sort of ends up being "get over it". At some point one has to just start to act against the feelings that they have, as painful as it might be. On the other hand, people who do conquer their depression can be even more well balanced emotionally because they have to learn how to handle things even when the feelings don't match.

 

With bipolar disorder, I've gotten pretty good at recognizing and handling mania, and a bit for the depressive swings, but the problem is that I'm left with a bunch of bad habits left over from my procrastination and anxiety so that even when I'm feeling normal I still have a bunch of problems like extreme procrastination and an inability to feel close to people. The only way to really fight this is just to start acting against it, and not just blaming my poor decisions on my emotional problems.

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The other problem with depression and other emotional disorders is, unfortunately, that the answer to beating it sort of ends up being "get over it". At some point one has to just start to act against the feelings that they have, as painful as it might be. On the other hand, people who do conquer their depression can be even more well balanced emotionally because they have to learn how to handle things even when the feelings don't match.

 

With bipolar disorder, I've gotten pretty good at recognizing and handling mania, and a bit for the depressive swings, but the problem is that I'm left with a bunch of bad habits left over from my procrastination and anxiety so that even when I'm feeling normal I still have a bunch of problems like extreme procrastination and an inability to feel close to people. The only way to really fight this is just to start acting against it, and not just blaming my poor decisions on my emotional problems.

 

Well first off, let's make the clear distinction between colloquial 'depression'--you know, the existential shit or the ritual of bad lifestyle habits--and what is called 'clinical depression'--where a person's neurochemical baseline is flawed from the get-go (i.e. where there is a seratonin or dopamine deficiency or whatever confluence of factors it might be).

 

You can't 'get over' clinical depression, in the same way you can't 'get over' sickle-cell anemia.

 

I agree that bipolar's symptoms can be mitigated, but it's not a matter of some triumph of the spirit. You can learn to avoid and cope with stress, you can avoid aggravating factors like caffeine and alcohol and marijuana, you can maintain a healthy diet and sleep schedule, you can stay active and social and productive, but you simply can't 'get over' bipolar with willpower or emotional fortitude or whatever.

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Guest fiznuthian

With regard to clinical depression, the monoamine hypothesis (deficiencies) is still extremely controversial and has a lot of problems. However, it's clear there are patterns in neural function that are observable in people afflicted with recurring sadness, anguish, anxiety, moods, etc. I personally think the brain is far too complex to simplify and really wish that hypothesis which was crafted and marketed so carefully by the pharmaceutical companies would disappear. It's very misleading to the average joe who sees a commercial and thinks, "Oh, i just need a drug to give me more serotonin!".

 

With that in mind, our emotional states are undoubtedly the result of nervous tissue function in some way. I think what you define as colloquial and clinical depression are really just two similar things on the same spectrum. I feel that severe depression represents a greater severity of conditioning and alteration to neural function. Our brains and nervous tissue are in constant adapation to stimuli, and as time goes by the changes root deeper and deeper in the neural network.

 

For a shitty analogy, imagine a construction crew building roads. They lay a network of roads in one day, but then discover it needs to be removed. That's no problem, as the crew has only laid so much road. Now what if that construction crew built a network of roads for the next ten years. The difficulty in backtracking now has increased exponentially and now the issue of permanence is a problem. This is how I see depression/anxiety. They're negative adaptations to either environment, self-inflicted thought patterns and reactions, or the numerous other ways someone ends up in a world of shit. Given enough time, their brain has adapted to this and it's not always pretty.

There's a strong possibility that you are right, and when a person goes down the rabbit hole enough there is no going back.

 

Here's a reference for anyone curious about the serotonin controversy.

Edited by fiznuthian
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The other problem with depression and other emotional disorders is, unfortunately, that the answer to beating it sort of ends up being "get over it". At some point one has to just start to act against the feelings that they have, as painful as it might be. On the other hand, people who do conquer their depression can be even more well balanced emotionally because they have to learn how to handle things even when the feelings don't match.

 

With bipolar disorder, I've gotten pretty good at recognizing and handling mania, and a bit for the depressive swings, but the problem is that I'm left with a bunch of bad habits left over from my procrastination and anxiety so that even when I'm feeling normal I still have a bunch of problems like extreme procrastination and an inability to feel close to people. The only way to really fight this is just to start acting against it, and not just blaming my poor decisions on my emotional problems.

 

Well first off, let's make the clear distinction between colloquial 'depression'--you know, the existential shit or the ritual of bad lifestyle habits--and what is called 'clinical depression'--where a person's neurochemical baseline is flawed from the get-go (i.e. where there is a seratonin or dopamine deficiency or whatever confluence of factors it might be).

 

You can't 'get over' clinical depression, in the same way you can't 'get over' sickle-cell anemia.

 

I agree that bipolar's symptoms can be mitigated, but it's not a matter of some triumph of the spirit. You can learn to avoid and cope with stress, you can avoid aggravating factors like caffeine and alcohol and marijuana, you can maintain a healthy diet and sleep schedule, you can stay active and social and productive, but you simply can't 'get over' bipolar with willpower or emotional fortitude or whatever.

 

I still think that a big part of overcoming the illness is to take action against it; I referenced "get over it" because it's a common argument against depression that people have that is terribly oversimplified and just plain wrong, however I think that there is a certain part of conquering depression that is consciously acting differently to how you feel. This is not an easy task and it's a process that can take years, whereas "get over it" implies that it is just a simple problem that can be gotten over in a day or two if just ignored. I completely understand the difference between clinical depression and typical sadness, as I have experienced it myself many times.

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Would anarchy eradicate depression?

If by 'anarchy' you mean community-based living and direct democracy then I would say yes, absolutely.

 

 

While I agree with you in a sense, I also believe that this is really a pipe-dream. People been fuckin', fightin', gettin' mad, gettin' sad and getting happy in no particular order since the dawn of man. Humans are in no way altruistic, and IMO most people who believe that they can be or that they are - aren't being fully honest with themselves.

 

I grew up on a commune in Northern California until I was 8. We had a little set-up akin to the one you describe. Most of the money was made off of the outdoor cannabis harvest every fall and my parents along with the other families, were freaky swinging hippies. They met and discussed things with how the land was to be run, we ate communal meals and lived off the land for the most part and my childhood was pretty rad aside from the ants.... so many ants...

 

While this sounds cool and dandy, it has the same pitfalls as any other society and group of people trying to satisfy the veritable desideratum of the many. People get greedy, people get selfish and people, most of the time IME, look out for themselves and their families over anyone else. I know this is going to spark an out-pour of bleeding heart 'you're just not enlightened/optimistic enough' or 'well they had the wrong reasons/mentality' crap, but until you have seen/experienced a true outsider communal society in the middle of nowhere operate, you can't say shit about if it works better than what you currently live in or that it would make anyone less depressed. It's a pipe dream to think that the problems that have plagued society since day one would just disappear in a 'community based direct-democracy' and it's a cop out to take action to better life in the current system, however flawed.

 

(I know this went off about more than just depression, I just had to rant a little)

Edited by Audioblysk
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Thanks for jumping in ahead of me to comment on that Audioblysk. Some of you are making it sound like anarchy is the cure and the most likely result of breaking up the ennui of modern society is some kumbaya wonderland of hippie communes. The history of not just such communes but the history of humanity in general makes it less than likely. FWIW I believe that the structure of society is largely to blame for many of these problems but it keeps people alive. Speculating about utopian alternatives does not do this discussion justice.

 

I'm not saying many people, maybe myself included, wouldn't be better off in a simpler more primitive communal lifestyle, but that has incredible dangers as well, looking at parts of the world where people still live like that.

 

I think this ties in with something poignant that another poster (gmanyo) mentioned, which was about more or less getting over your emotions - I can attest to the efficacy of this. While I don't agree with "getting over it" is the right way of phrasing it, it's important to accept your condition. It's important to accept that a large part of your condition (besides theoretical deficiencies or whatever metaphysical kinks you've got) isn't that your deep soul is being stifled by oppressive forces, but that evolutionary habits designed to keep you alive and procreating are deeply driven desires which are liable to cause incredible conflict when you're dealing with the realities of life.

 

The other problem with depression and other emotional disorders is, unfortunately, that the answer to beating it sort of ends up being "get over it". At some point one has to just start to act against the feelings that they have, as painful as it might be. On the other hand, people who do conquer their depression can be even more well balanced emotionally because they have to learn how to handle things even when the feelings don't match.

 

With bipolar disorder, I've gotten pretty good at recognizing and handling mania, and a bit for the depressive swings, but the problem is that I'm left with a bunch of bad habits left over from my procrastination and anxiety so that even when I'm feeling normal I still have a bunch of problems like extreme procrastination and an inability to feel close to people. The only way to really fight this is just to start acting against it, and not just blaming my poor decisions on my emotional problems.

 

 

So, a part of learning to deal with emotional disorders is learning to deal with life in different manners. I can attest that at when initially learning to deal with intense anxiety rather than allow it to run wild and ruin your life, it will be necessary to accept that in certain situations, like certain social situations, your private version of events essentially "isn't happening" to a large degree, so that you temporarily stop trusting it for emotionally driven decision making. This sounds potentially destructive, but it's not so much putting a lid on it, but learning to recondition your perception of the world and restructuring your ideas on threat handling and the huge amount of guesswork and exaggeration involved - this pretty much has to be radical on some level in order for it to work. And I think it can work with some long-term rehabilitation, private or assisted on some level, but it certainly isn't easy.

Edited by chim
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When I say anarchy, I mean it pure. I mean survival as individual conquest. I mean a total embrace of the primal. I mean where communism is at the right of the spectrum, anarchism is on the left. Living communally does not fit into this. I mean daily violence.


And, "Get over it" is the only option.

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When I say anarchy, I mean it pure. I mean survival as individual conquest. I mean a total embrace of the primal. I mean where communism is at the right of the spectrum, anarchism is on the left. Living communally does not fit into this. I mean daily violence.

 

 

 

 

No,

 

It would improve the lives of sociopaths. The rest would suffer greatly.

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Guest fiznuthian

 

 

But when the self speaks to the self, who is speaking? The entombed soul, the spirit driven in, in, in to the central catacomb; the self that took the veil and left the world -- a coward perhaps, yet somehow beautiful, as it flits with its lantern restlessly up and down the dark corridors.
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But when the self speaks to the self, who is speaking? The entombed soul, the spirit driven in, in, in to the central catacomb; the self that took the veil and left the world -- a coward perhaps, yet somehow beautiful, as it flits with its lantern restlessly up and down the dark corridors.

 

 

"Things outside you are projections of what's inside you, and what's inside you is a projection of what's outside. So when you step into the labyrinth outside you, at the same time you're stepping into the labyrinth inside.”

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