Saudi woman sentenced to 100 lashes and year in jail for being raped

[syd syside]

Freedom of speech laws:

 

 

I don't know of any other good statistical outlets, im not ur research assistant

 

 

last post lol

[lumpenprol]

apparently people in greenland, antarctica, and papua new guinea are speechless.

[Dan C]

And the brave souls of the Western Sahara

[syd syside]

My problem is mostly that this kind of imperialist, fascist shit

Those that become more humane will earn luxurious prizes and technology from the West as a token of gratitude, that serve to help all people within that region.

makes my stomach turn. As you were, then.

 

I'll quickly respond to this because I can see how my wording sounds elitist, basically we should provide trading of services and promote technology/computers towards nations that make progress with freedom of religion/speech laws because that will help promote free thinking and diversity as we have seen. Our current policy is making things worse and I am critical of that. But the left's attitude I find to be sometimes overly politically correct by framing those that focus on this region of the planet (in the same manner I am critical of problems in the US) as islamaphobes or racists. Ultimately suppressing concern over very real human suffering.

 

When I said "from the West" that means I want to promote this kind of policy and ideals where I live. Making people more aware of the problems of radical religious beliefs, human rights abuses, without resorting to name calling and hyperbole might allow for more dialogue on the topic eventually leading to organizing/protesting so that our foreign policy and foreign aid serve the right interests.

Edited November 9, 2012 by compson

[SR4]

My problem is mostly that this kind of imperialist, fascist shit

Those that become more humane will earn luxurious prizes and technology from the West as a token of gratitude, that serve to help all people within that region.

makes my stomach turn. As you were, then.

 

I'll quickly respond to this because I can see how my wording sounds elitist, basically we should provide trading of services and promote technology/computers towards nations that make progress with freedom of religion/speech laws because that will help promote free thinking and diversity as we have seen. Our current policy is making things worse and I am critical of that. But the left's attitude I find to be sometimes overly politically correct by framing those that focus on this region of the planet (in the same manner I am critical of problems in the US) as islamaphobes or racists. Ultimately suppressing concern over very real human suffering.

 

When I said "from the West" that means I want to promote this kind of policy and ideals where I live. Making people more aware of the problems of radical religious beliefs, human rights abuses, without resorting to name calling and hyperbole might allow for more dialogue on the topic eventually leading to organizing/protesting so that our foreign policy and foreign aid serve the right interests.

 

im not gonna go into a diatribe here, but I would say its reflecting institutionalized racism, not a visceral active sort of racism. its not on you persay, but on a far larger power apparatus.

 

and im also not going to reformulate my original argument: its just more complicated than we want to make it out to be. Especially when you are applying concepts such as "morality" to nation-states.

[syd syside]

My problem is mostly that this kind of imperialist, fascist shit

Those that become more humane will earn luxurious prizes and technology from the West as a token of gratitude, that serve to help all people within that region.

makes my stomach turn. As you were, then.

 

I'll quickly respond to this because I can see how my wording sounds elitist, basically we should provide trading of services and promote technology/computers towards nations that make progress with freedom of religion/speech laws because that will help promote free thinking and diversity as we have seen. Our current policy is making things worse and I am critical of that. But the left's attitude I find to be sometimes overly politically correct by framing those that focus on this region of the planet (in the same manner I am critical of problems in the US) as islamaphobes or racists. Ultimately suppressing concern over very real human suffering.

 

When I said "from the West" that means I want to promote this kind of policy and ideals where I live. Making people more aware of the problems of radical religious beliefs, human rights abuses, without resorting to name calling and hyperbole might allow for more dialogue on the topic eventually leading to organizing/protesting so that our foreign policy and foreign aid serve the right interests.

 

im not gonna go into a diatribe here, but I would say its reflecting institutionalized racism, not a visceral active sort of racism. its not on you persay, but on a far larger power apparatus.

 

and im also not going to reformulate my original argument: its just more complicated than we want to make it out to be. Especially when you are applying concepts such as "morality" to nation-states.

 

The problem's root is complicated, however the solution can be simplified down to leading by example (fixing problems locally) and promoting processes that lead to diversity and free thinking (discuss/spread information related to human rights violations). On an individual level this won't accomplish anything, but I think the apathetic nature that stems from political correctness (if we leave them alone they will become to share western ideals) is less effective and has greater moral implications to those in the present. My intent is biased because it is my ideal. Corporate and Religious institutions have too much power on the individual and those institutions will be criticized regardless of skin tone, geographic region, religion, wealth. Unfortunately miscommunication, and differing biases lead us down an emotional road that divides us from our equal intents and discourages public discourse. I am definitely guilty of it, as it is human nature to go passionately to an extreme for the sake of "winning" But it is something to be avoided, especially when we have the freedom/power to openly spread ideals.

Edited November 9, 2012 by compson

[SR4]

ok, put as simply as I can:

 

"What you are doing is wrong."

 

"What you are doing is backwards."

 

Do you see how different these sentences really are when they refer to such a situation?

[syd syside]

Don't understand your point. I'm suggesting open dialogue because ultimately that is a form of finding solutions, in this thread I noted that our foreign policy in the region is creating more radical hatred towards the West which reflects badly on our ideals (why I voted third party, along with corporate power and electoral/congressional reform). That is why we have to be organized and effective at representation. This entails spreading your ideals respectfully across the globe and making people more aware of human rights violations. The more this happens the more unified everyone is around understanding the processes involved with ridding institutional racism/oppression. I don't see why I should be called an idiot racist for this and I find that attitude ultimately damaging to the power that we hold to openly debate and freely think. I am not saying the solution is to go to these countries and tell them they are wrong. I am saying we need to lead by example, shift our local government towards ethical/moral policy that defends human rights and through a unified and caring society we can better demonstrate a humane intent. Rather we have created a religious war, where our representation does not demonstrate a humane intent. We are losing control over our image basically and only through respectful discourse can there be a peaceful resolution.

 

When I bring up the Egyptian statistic it is a human rights violation. An individual in that society will be scared to think or act openly as they would ideally want to.

 

The goal is for the globe to bright blue is it not?

Edited November 9, 2012 by compson

[Guest Iain C]

it's rediculous to compare low conviction rates for sex crimes in the western world with medieval corporal punishment and incarceration of rape victims in muslim countries. and honour killings might be different but are clearly part of the same issue.

 

you always seem to be arguing for the sake of it. ie: trolling.

 

Sent from my Facepalm5000 using Crapatalk 3-D

 

But it's not just low conviction rates, is it. More than 100 women are murdered every year in the UK by their partners - about two a week. Funnily enough it almost never makes the pages of the Daily Mail.

 

What's more, studies suggest that perhaps 75% of incidences of domestic violence - the kind that escalates into murder - go completely unreported.

 

I'm not trying to draw an equivalence - clearly things are worse for women in Saudi and Pakistan.But we live in a deeply misogynistic and violent culture ourselves, and the idea that the wholesale export of western cultural values and the expansion of globalisation and capitalist/liberal democracy is the way to combat oppression, murder and inequality around the world is frankly a big lol. It's hypocritical and based on imperialist if not racist assumptions.

[syd syside]

Perhaps cultural values is the wrong way to phrase it from my end... what about human rights/freedoms? Violence seems to stem from wealth inequality, segregation, education, and social environment. Of course human rights in of itself doesn't equate to an utopian society, but it does seem like a logical pathway that should be available to all humans.

Edited November 9, 2012 by compson

[keltoi]

oopsie

Edited November 9, 2012 by keltoi

[keltoi]

it's rediculous to compare low conviction rates for sex crimes in the western world with medieval corporal punishment and incarceration of rape victims in muslim countries. and honour killings might be different but are clearly part of the same issue.

 

you always seem to be arguing for the sake of it. ie: trolling.

 

Sent from my Facepalm5000 using Crapatalk 3-D

 

But it's not just low conviction rates, is it. More than 100 women are murdered every year in the UK by their partners - about two a week. Funnily enough it almost never makes the pages of the Daily Mail.

 

What's more, studies suggest that perhaps 75% of incidences of domestic violence - the kind that escalates into murder - go completely unreported.

 

I'm not trying to draw an equivalence - clearly things are worse for women in Saudi and Pakistan.But we live in a deeply misogynistic and violent culture ourselves, and the idea that the wholesale export of western cultural values and the expansion of globalisation and capitalist/liberal democracy is the way to combat oppression, murder and inequality around the world is frankly a big lol. It's hypocritical and based on imperialist if not racist assumptions.

 

my mum's close friend, basically my auntie if not by blood, was brutally murdered by her husband 4 years ago and it was all over the local and national press. probably half as many men are murdered by their partners each year. but men are by nature, more violent than women... anyway, domestic violence in the uk is nothing compared to the things being discussed here.

 

noone can deny we have problems in the uk... spousal rape was only made illegal in england and wales in the early 90's ffs!! today we might find that hard to believe, but it shows that things can improve and why not hope for the same further afield?

 

edit - hope for and impose obviously very different things.

Edited November 9, 2012 by keltoi

[Guest Iain C]

my mum's close friend, basically my auntie if not by blood, was brutally murdered by her husband 4 years ago and it was all over the local and national press. probably half as many men are murdered by their partners each year. but men are by nature, more violent than women... anyway, domestic violence in the uk is nothing compared to the things being discussed here.

 

noone can deny we have problems in the uk... spousal rape was only made illegal in england and wales in the early 90's ffs!! today we might find that hard to believe, but it shows that things can improve and why not hope for the same further afield?

 

edit - hope for and impose obviously very different things.

 

I'm sorry for your loss. Without going into too much detail I know people who've been affected by physical and sexual domestic abuse too, and it's a terrible thing to contemplate.

 

But I'm not sure there's much difference between an Englishman murdering his partner in a fit of irrational jealousy (or whatever other reason) and Pakistani parents murdering their daughter for similarly irrational reasons. They're both motivated by the same impulses - possessiveness, pride and a desire to control women's bodies and behaviour. In fact I'd say they're pretty much analogous. But one fits a popular media narrative that people in Muslim countries are the savage Other (in Edward Said's sense of the term), that their values and motivations and beliefs are alien to, inferior to and incompatible with ours. And that's a dangerous way of seeing the world for reasons I hope are obvious.

 

And although spousal rape is illegal now, I'd be willing to bet that the rates of it actually happening have barely changed (although I don't have the statistics). Most rapes are unreported anyway so stats on rape are notoriously shaky at the best of times.

 

I don't actually think that the changes in culture required to reduce and eliminate rape (keep dreaming etc.) can come from legislation - which is one of the reasons I'm highly sceptical of the idea that even good-natured Western intervention (and honestly, it's never truly good-natured. There's always a profit motive) can produce a positive change in other nations.

 

Of course I hope for change further afield. I hope for change here too. I just don't labour under the delusion that "we" set an exemplary path for other nations to follow.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Iain C

[eugene]

it's rediculous to compare low conviction rates for sex crimes in the western world with medieval corporal punishment and incarceration of rape victims in muslim countries. and honour killings might be different but are clearly part of the same issue.

 

you always seem to be arguing for the sake of it. ie: trolling.

 

Sent from my Facepalm5000 using Crapatalk 3-D

 

But it's not just low conviction rates, is it. More than 100 women are murdered every year in the UK by their partners - about two a week. Funnily enough it almost never makes the pages of the Daily Mail.

how many of these 100 are muslim ?

[Guest Iain C]

Eat shit, Eugene.

 

Or back up your implicit suggestion with something approaching a fact - but mostly, just eat shit.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Iain C

[Friendly Foil]

lol

[eugene]

Eat shit, Eugene.

 

Or back up your implicit suggestion with something approaching a fact - but mostly, just eat shit.

i'm not suggesting anything yet, you brought that number from somewhere. it can sort of prove your point too if the % of muslim victims is proportional to their population.

[syd syside]

"A clear example of child abuse."

 

It's not just the religion that provides the basis for hatred of Israel in the Islamic world, but also the way the religious hatred is spread, starting with the indoctrination of children. How else to account for the following video, from MEMRI, seen on Egyptian TV:

 

http://youtu.be/Og7amt6dfBM

 

Where are the videos of Israeli children preaching on state controlled television a religious call for Muslims or others to be destroyed? These Arab children call for genocide.

[Guest Iain C]

That statistic comes from Home Office figures, ie official government reports. Found via the women's aid charity: http://www.womensaid.org.uk/domestic-violence-articles.asp?section=00010001002200410001&itemid=1280. If you can dig up a single statistic that suggests Muslims are disproportionately represented in those figures, please do so - otherwise you're just opening your mouth and letting shite fall out.

[Guest Iain C]

In fact, here's a bit of mathematical trickery for you, if you're up to it: 25% of all women in the UK report experiencing domestic violence in their lifetimes. Muslim women make up about 4% of all women in the UK. Now think very hard about those numbers.

[eugene]

you can't prove/disprove something like that with "reporting" statistics, there's just too much behind that act of reporting.

[Guest Iain C]

Right you are. Rape and domestic violence are hugely under-reported. But I'd like to know what your basis is for suggesting they're disproportionate among Muslims in the UK - aside from your own prejudices.

[syd syside]

In a Saudi Shari'a court, the testimony of one man equals that of two women. In Kuwait, the male population is allowed to vote, while women are still disenfranchised. Egypt, Morocco, Jordan and Saudi Arabia all have laws stating that a woman's inheritance must be less than that of her male siblings (usually about half the size). Moroccan law excuses the murder or injury of a wife who is caught in the act of committing adultery; yet women are punished for harming their husbands under the same circumstances.

 

Wife-beating is a relatively common practice in Arab countries, and abused women have little recourse. As the State Department has noted regarding Jordan (and most of the Arab world): "Wife beating is technically grounds for divorce, but the husband may seek to demonstrate that he has authority from the Koran to correct an irreligious or disobedient wife by striking her."⁴

 

In Saudi Arabia, restrictions against women are among the most extreme in the Arab world. Saudi women may not marry non-Saudis without government permission (which is rarely given); are forbidden to drive motor vehicles or bicycles; may not use public facilities when men are present; and are forced to sit in the backs of public buses, segregated from men.

 

The UN, international organizations and local human rights rights nongovernmental organizations constantly pressure the regimes in Arab states to improve the state of human rights in general and women's rights in particular. According to UN data, the proportion of women's representation in Arab parliaments is only 3.4% (as opposed to 11.4% in the rest of the world). In addition, 55% of Arab women are illiterate. The Assistant to UN Vice Secretary General, Angela King, publicly called on Arab states to grant women their rights.⁷

 

U.S. State Department, Reports on Human Rights Practices for 1999.

 

http://1997-2001.state.gov/

[Alcofribas]

"A clear example of child abuse."

 

It's not just the religion that provides the basis for hatred of Israel in the Islamic world, but also the way the religious hatred is spread, starting with the indoctrination of children. How else to account for the following video, from MEMRI, seen on Egyptian TV:

 

http://youtu.be/Og7amt6dfBM

 

Where are the videos of Israeli children preaching on state controlled television a religious call for Muslims or others to be destroyed? These Arab children call for genocide.

 

keep that shit out of here, compson. wtf?

[Hoodie]

"A clear example of child abuse."

 

It's not just the religion that provides the basis for hatred of Israel in the Islamic world, but also the way the religious hatred is spread, starting with the indoctrination of children. How else to account for the following video, from MEMRI, seen on Egyptian TV:

 

http://youtu.be/Og7amt6dfBM

 

Where are the videos of Israeli children preaching on state controlled television a religious call for Muslims or others to be destroyed? These Arab children call for genocide.

 

to be fair, i've also seen a lot of crap like this in the christan world. watch the movie "jesus camp" if you want to learn more.

 

gosh, religion is so poisonous.