being poor in america

[LimpyLoo]

how the fuck do you make enough to spend 150 bucks a week on food?

 

Yeah I was gonna ask that. Me and my girlfriend only spend about $200/month on groceries.

[Guest fiznuthian]

how the fuck do you make enough to spend 150 bucks a week on food?

 

That's definitely the most I will ever spend in a week. It's usually when i'm buying expensive, specific foods regularly. Things like kefir, kerrygold cheeses, nicer cuts of meat, 90% dark chocolate, etc. 150 is definitely NOT my average food expenditure.

 

[auxien]

 

 

So your average fast food meal ranges anywhere from $3-7 dollars, often more. These meals barely wet a person's appetite for long and are significantly devoid of nutrition at best, and detrimental to our health at worst. A typical pizza ranges from $5-15 dollars, and will barely satiate at all.

 

So lets see what you can buy with $5 dollars at the grocery:

 

- An entire sack of potatoes

- 1 lb of meat

- 3-4 cans of assorted vegetables

- Damn near 2 gallons of milk

- More than a dozen eggs

- Close to a couple bags of frozen vegetables, if not more

- A bag full of frozen fruits

 

Lets break down a typical day on a typical American's diet:

 

- decently sized bowl of cereal @ $5 per box = approx $0.50

- 1 yoplait yogurt = $1.49

- 1 nature valley bar @ $4.75 per box = approx $0.70

- 1 snack from vending machine = $1.00

- 1 can of coke @ $10 pack = approx $0.80

- 1 lean cuisine TV dinner = $5

 

Okay so we're at $9.49 already for the day and by my conservative estimate (I added extra extra calories too) we're approximately around 1200 calories for the day, which as you know is NOT what most people are consuming daily.

 

lol are serious?

 

What do you mean? Is my shitty rough estimate really that far off from reality?

 

yes. at most any fast food place, i can fill my stomach (unhealthily) for $3, if not less. average meal is around $5-6, but that's not necessary.

 

a typical pizza will satiate two-three people, i'm usually happy with 2-3 slices. your price is correct, but i can stretch a $10 pizza into 3 or 4 meals, easily. i know people who can finish a whole pizza themselves, but they don't have to, nor should they really.

 

as for the $5 for groceries, i assume you don't think you can buy all those things with $5.... a gallon of milk is over $5 in most places if i'm not mistaken (i'm lactose intolerant). eggs are around $1.50 a dozen. a small bag of frozen veggies is around $1. people buy frozen fruits? 1 lb of meat is under $5 in most cases, and your canned veggies estimates are about right. with $5 at a grocery store one can't often buy a 'meal.' unless you're talking about frozen dinners...which are often not too healthy/not too filling.

 

for $5 i guess you could get a can of tuna, some cheap bread, small bottle of mayo, small bag of chips, and get at least a meal plus maybe some extra bread and leftover mayo out of it.

 

also, i dunno who would eat like your 'average day' there. you're really only talking a light breakfast, one decent meal (lean cuisine meal are usually under $4, some even under $3), and a snack. most humans (even poor ones *EDIT: in not-third-world-countries* like me!) eat two decent meals a day, plus a little extra here and there, perhaps even three full meals.

 

anyway, your original point was that eating unhealthy is expensive. but it's really not the case anymore. 10 or more years ago maybe, but not now. dollar menus at most fast food places prove that. burger + side = $2.20 or so with tax. drink some tap water with that, two meals a day plus a bag of chips or something, you're looking at 5-6 bucks. cheap as shit. now that is not necessarily as cheap as cooking at home, but it's pretty damned close, and often yummier. plus, cooking requires a LOT of startup and maintenance cost and time investment in comparison. 2 or 3 pots/pans/lids, couple of spatulas, cleaning supplies for afterwards, plates, storage containers and the like, utensils, seasonings, condiments, oil and dry ingredients, various (often specialized) ingredients, etc. like, i'm not being a jerk, i cook all the time and have lots of shit because of it, but i've known people who never, just never, cook. they keep sodas and beer, maybe a ketchup bottle in the fridge, with leftovers if anything. bare cabinets and such...if they're the type of person who may move ever year or so, and lazy and unhealthy generally, it's almost more cost/time efficient for them to eat out, if they eat the cheap things at the cheap places.

 

tl;dr, these days, eating unhealthy can be just as cheap as eating healthy is my point.

[Guest zaphod]

some poor motherfuckers up in here

[syd syside]

some poor motherfuckers up in here

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8iqWg8MP-U

[LimpyLoo]

some poor motherfuckers up in here

 

I'll chew on your nipple for 50 cents.

[Braintree]

I spend about $60 on groceries per month.

 

tl;dr, these days, eating unhealthy can be just as cheap as eating healthy is my point.

 

It really depends on where you're living. The cheapest I can get eggs is $2 a dozen [for the horrible caged chicken kind] at Trader Joe's. I live in a major city though.

[Braintree]

Organic vegetables tend to be a delicacy, and priced well above the GMO "equivalent."

[awepittance]

 

 

 

 

The biggest problem is that we're evolutionarily wired to enjoy all this junk food. Back before the agricultural revolution when food was scarce and you didn't know when your next meal was coming from, it made perfect sense to load up on carbs, salt, fat, etc while you could. But now it's backfiring and taking decades off our expected lifespan.

 

 

And I'm curious what environmental factors would you suggest are responsible for disease?

Just the obvious, but general idea that we are exposed to toxins. It's pretty obvious but what's difficult to determine is what's really hurting us and what isn't. Just like pesticides, in theory some should be fairly awful, but how do we really know? We're playing guinea pig.. Is car exhaust hurting us? How about household cleaners? Hairspray? Preservatives?

 

Are we somehow to immune to all of these things? I don't think it's likely.

Just like your excellent point, which I was trying to avoid saying really (it's not a popular idea still), our ancestral environment even at the turn of the last century was so much different than the way we live now.

 

There's a lot of talk in this thread about how our current way of living is wasteful, not sustainable, not equal, etc.. All of these things are true. I've been extremely conscious of all of this lately.. it really makes me want to move into the woods and grow food and medicine. I'll still be close by but i'd like to remain as healthy as possible and not depend on the healthcare system so much until I die.

as much as people like to believe the products that we interact with on a daily basis are 'safe' and not toxic enough to cause major issues simply because they are legal or FDA approved, there is really no way of knowing. Maybe with a long term or generational study of a totally isolated population living in an atmosphere totally immune to radiation and the earth's post industrial revolution air supply, but that wouldn't really be possible. We are all part of a grand experiment, and some people would rather pretend everything is safe or that certain doses of radiation are 'relatively harmless' but let's be honest, that's a coping mechanism to deal with the totally legitimate fear of the unknown.

GMOS are a perfect example of people being guinea pigs in the new world economy. the FDA approved them since they are the genetic 'equivalent' of edible and known foods, but without long term studies of people who ingest them vs those who do not we have no fucking clue.

 

I find it amusing that apparently, at least here on this forum it's now considered 'liberal' by a few to have no faith in the US government or corporate stock holder's desire to keep us safe and healthy. Is it conspiratorial? Not really, unless you count an unconscious conspiracy of carelessness sprung out of the insatiable desire for profit as wearing a 'tin foil hat'. To me it's a lot scarier to think that the super rich who run things really don't give a fuck at all, rather than them being part of some grand conspiracy to kill us.

 

Fluoride is one that is associated with many paranoid conspiracy movements, but from just a rational standpoint. Why would you want to ingest an industrial waste product just to help keep your teeth clean? Is it even logical? Or have we been raised to believe that it's necessary?

[RichieBees]

i heard there is murcury in injections and fucking CHEMICALS in food and other things !?!?!?!?!!!!

fuck poor people

read down and out in paris and london by orwell its p good : >

 

food desserts sound awful

[eugene]

Whoa whoa I never said--nor meant to imply--that the government is poisoning us or any such nonsense. Simply that flouride is a known carcinogen and that a lifetime's worth of consumption might possibly do harm.

your link leads to an article that states the opposite

[Guest fiznuthian]

Actually I should probably say I have absolutely no idea what I spend on groceries every week/month.. I started counting and i'm not spending anywhere near what I thought.. I don't ever track it but my account always grows. hmm

[eugene]

Fluoride is one that is associated with many paranoid conspiracy movements, but from just a rational standpoint. Why would you want to ingest an industrial waste product just to help keep your teeth clean? Is it even logical? Or have we been raised to believe that it's necessary?

it's a super cheap method to help prevent tooth decay on a massive scale, it makes perfect sense especially in countries with no reasonable healthcare.

[auxien]

I spend about $60 on groceries per month.

 

tl;dr, these days, eating unhealthy can be just as cheap as eating healthy is my point.

 

It really depends on where you're living. The cheapest I can get eggs is $2 a dozen [for the horrible caged chicken kind] at Trader Joe's. I live in a major city though.

 

 

well of course there's gonna be cost of living differences, but in general i'd think they even out with average wages. but eating unhealthy (which one could easily include canned meals such as Spaghettio's and shit like that as a 'meal' along with fast food) is about as cheap as 'healthy' eating in most cases.

 

i get eggs for free (my parents have chickens) but at Kroger's, they're usually around $1.25 for a dozen. i think they're occasionally cheaper at Sam's when you buy the 18-24 packs of eggs. for 'cage-free' eggs i'd pay at least $1.75 or so around here.

 

i've never been to a Trader Joe's, but aren't they kind of like a 'classy' place for groceries? correct me if i'm wrong please.

 

Actually I should probably say I have absolutely no idea what I spend on groceries every week/month.. I started counting and i'm not spending anywhere near what I thought.. I don't ever track it but my account always grows. hmm

 

haha yeah i kinda figured that after some of your estimates. being poor makes one really pay attention to where every single dollar earned is spent.

[LimpyLoo]

 

Whoa whoa I never said--nor meant to imply--that the government is poisoning us or any such nonsense. Simply that flouride is a known carcinogen and that a lifetime's worth of consumption might possibly do harm.

your link leads to an article that states the opposite

 

 

 

It says it appears to cause cancer in rats. So is appears to be a carcinogen. The only question is whether humans consume enough

of it to be harmful.

 

 

I don't care either way, really.

[eugene]

it appeared to have caused cancer in rats in one study only, but not in any other study ever conducted according to that link. wouldn't it make much more sense to call it a non-carcinogen given the number of studies not finding the link ?

[LimpyLoo]

Do it up.

[pcock]

i spend about 25 quid a day on food i reckon, i like to cook, so i end up making huge pots of food that my fat flatmate rattles through in no time. anyway, im not poor, i fuckin hate having no money. its shit.

[Guest fiznuthian]

 

I spend about $60 on groceries per month.

 

tl;dr, these days, eating unhealthy can be just as cheap as eating healthy is my point.

 

It really depends on where you're living. The cheapest I can get eggs is $2 a dozen [for the horrible caged chicken kind] at Trader Joe's. I live in a major city though.

 

 

well of course there's gonna be cost of living differences, but in general i'd think they even out with average wages. but eating unhealthy (which one could easily include canned meals such as Spaghettio's and shit like that as a 'meal' along with fast food) is about as cheap as 'healthy' eating in most cases.

 

i get eggs for free (my parents have chickens) but at Kroger's, they're usually around $1.25 for a dozen. i think they're occasionally cheaper at Sam's when you buy the 18-24 packs of eggs. for 'cage-free' eggs i'd pay at least $1.75 or so around here.

 

i've never been to a Trader Joe's, but aren't they kind of like a 'classy' place for groceries? correct me if i'm wrong please.

 

>>Actually I should probably say I have absolutely no idea what I spend on groceries every week/month.. I started counting and i'm not spending anywhere near what I thought.. I don't ever track it but my account always grows. hmm

 

haha yeah i kinda figured that after some of your estimates. being poor makes one really pay attention to where every single dollar earned is spent.

 

 

Yeah, I dunno.. I am definitely not wealthy at all.

Food quality is definitely at the topic of my list of priorities. I'll sacrifice a lot in my life just to eat well. When i'm hurting for money i'll start rationing down my dollar bills and counting, but otherwise I simply buy what I need to buy. Thankfully my savings still grows slowly. I guess somehow in my mind I just expected to be paying a lot, but i'm not..

 

According to this Gallup data, the average American reports spending $151 per week. Perhaps this reflects how many people are dining out? Or would this data also include expediture for a whole family?

[syd syside]

 

 

 

 

 

The biggest problem is that we're evolutionarily wired to enjoy all this junk food. Back before the agricultural revolution when food was scarce and you didn't know when your next meal was coming from, it made perfect sense to load up on carbs, salt, fat, etc while you could. But now it's backfiring and taking decades off our expected lifespan.

 

 

And I'm curious what environmental factors would you suggest are responsible for disease?

Just the obvious, but general idea that we are exposed to toxins. It's pretty obvious but what's difficult to determine is what's really hurting us and what isn't. Just like pesticides, in theory some should be fairly awful, but how do we really know? We're playing guinea pig.. Is car exhaust hurting us? How about household cleaners? Hairspray? Preservatives?

 

Are we somehow to immune to all of these things? I don't think it's likely.

Just like your excellent point, which I was trying to avoid saying really (it's not a popular idea still), our ancestral environment even at the turn of the last century was so much different than the way we live now.

 

There's a lot of talk in this thread about how our current way of living is wasteful, not sustainable, not equal, etc.. All of these things are true. I've been extremely conscious of all of this lately.. it really makes me want to move into the woods and grow food and medicine. I'll still be close by but i'd like to remain as healthy as possible and not depend on the healthcare system so much until I die.

as much as people like to believe the products that we interact with on a daily basis are 'safe' and not toxic enough to cause major issues simply because they are legal or FDA approved, there is really no way of knowing. Maybe with a long term or generational study of a totally isolated population living in an atmosphere totally immune to radiation and the earth's post industrial revolution air supply, but that wouldn't really be possible. We are all part of a grand experiment, and some people would rather pretend everything is safe or that certain doses of radiation are 'relatively harmless' but let's be honest, that's a coping mechanism to deal with the totally legitimate fear of the unknown.

GMOS are a perfect example of people being guinea pigs in the new world economy. the FDA approved them since they are the genetic 'equivalent' of edible and known foods, but without long term studies of people who ingest them vs those who do not we have no fucking clue.

 

I find it amusing that apparently, at least here on this forum it's now considered 'liberal' by a few to have no faith in the US government or corporate stock holder's desire to keep us safe and healthy. Is it conspiratorial? Not really, unless you count an unconscious conspiracy of carelessness sprung out of the insatiable desire for profit as wearing a 'tin foil hat'. To me it's a lot scarier to think that the super rich who run things really don't give a fuck at all, rather than them being part of some grand conspiracy to kill us.

 

Fluoride is one that is associated with many paranoid conspiracy movements, but from just a rational standpoint. Why would you want to ingest an industrial waste product just to help keep your teeth clean? Is it even logical? Or have we been raised to believe that it's necessary?

 

The only real grand conspiracy that I know to be legit is how inaccurate and mis guided the food pyramid is.

 

 

But if you really want to suggest a healthy way of living is assuming all unknowns that involves the government are probably some grand experiment in which one is a guinea pig, then by all means... but for my atheist blood I'm not gonna give much thought to the idea that drinking water might be slowly eating away my body. It's fine if you want to live in paranoia, but as Eugene points out there is no science to really back up your fear. Sure the Government is capable of lying and doing stuff against the public's best interest... so its not absurd to imagine that its possible, just as its not absurd to imagine god might exist... but without any real evidence, accepting it as a very real possibility, is akin to going through your day half the time fearing the eternal burning gates of hell because you have been cheating on your wife.

[Guest apeterlives]

most grocery stores have places for 1 day old baked goods/few days old produce/dented cans, you can get stuff 60% or more off that way

[Guest fiznuthian]

most grocery stores have places for 1 day old baked goods/few days old produce/dented cans, you can get stuff 60% or more off that way

 

Great tip. Managed to score a lot of cheap and good food this way.

[azatoth]

Shops also throw totally fine food in their dumpsters, which is free.

[awepittance]

compson, on 23 Mar 2013 - 14:46, said:

 

 

 

 

John Ehrlichman, on 23 Mar 2013 - 03:40, said:

 

 

 

 

 

fiznuthian, on 22 Mar 2013 - 15:18, said:

 

 

 

 

 

LimpyLoo, on 22 Mar 2013 - 14:37, said:

 

 

 

 

The biggest problem is that we're evolutionarily wired to enjoy all this junk food. Back before the agricultural revolution when food was scarce and you didn't know when your next meal was coming from, it made perfect sense to load up on carbs, salt, fat, etc while you could. But now it's backfiring and taking decades off our expected lifespan.

 

 

And I'm curious what environmental factors would you suggest are responsible for disease?

Just the obvious, but general idea that we are exposed to toxins. It's pretty obvious but what's difficult to determine is what's really hurting us and what isn't. Just like pesticides, in theory some should be fairly awful, but how do we really know? We're playing guinea pig.. Is car exhaust hurting us? How about household cleaners? Hairspray? Preservatives?

 

Are we somehow to immune to all of these things? I don't think it's likely.

Just like your excellent point, which I was trying to avoid saying really (it's not a popular idea still), our ancestral environment even at the turn of the last century was so much different than the way we live now.

 

There's a lot of talk in this thread about how our current way of living is wasteful, not sustainable, not equal, etc.. All of these things are true. I've been extremely conscious of all of this lately.. it really makes me want to move into the woods and grow food and medicine. I'll still be close by but i'd like to remain as healthy as possible and not depend on the healthcare system so much until I die.

as much as people like to believe the products that we interact with on a daily basis are 'safe' and not toxic enough to cause major issues simply because they are legal or FDA approved, there is really no way of knowing. Maybe with a long term or generational study of a totally isolated population living in an atmosphere totally immune to radiation and the earth's post industrial revolution air supply, but that wouldn't really be possible. We are all part of a grand experiment, and some people would rather pretend everything is safe or that certain doses of radiation are 'relatively harmless' but let's be honest, that's a coping mechanism to deal with the totally legitimate fear of the unknown.

GMOS are a perfect example of people being guinea pigs in the new world economy. the FDA approved them since they are the genetic 'equivalent' of edible and known foods, but without long term studies of people who ingest them vs those who do not we have no fucking clue.

 

I find it amusing that apparently, at least here on this forum it's now considered 'liberal' by a few to have no faith in the US government or corporate stock holder's desire to keep us safe and healthy. Is it conspiratorial? Not really, unless you count an unconscious conspiracy of carelessness sprung out of the insatiable desire for profit as wearing a 'tin foil hat'. To me it's a lot scarier to think that the super rich who run things really don't give a fuck at all, rather than them being part of some grand conspiracy to kill us.

 

Fluoride is one that is associated with many paranoid conspiracy movements, but from just a rational standpoint. Why would you want to ingest an industrial waste product just to help keep your teeth clean? Is it even logical? Or have we been raised to believe that it's necessary?

The only real grand conspiracy that I know to be legit is how inaccurate and mis guided the food pyramid is.

 

 

But if you really want to suggest a healthy way of living is assuming all unknowns that involves the government are probably some grand experiment in which one is a guinea pig, then by all means... but for my atheist blood I'm not gonna give much thought to the idea that drinking water might be slowly eating away my body. It's fine if you want to live in paranoia, but as Eugene points out there is no science to really back up your fear. Sure the Government is capable of lying and doing stuff against the public's best interest... so its not absurd to imagine that its possible, just as its not absurd to imagine god might exist... but without any real evidence, accepting it as a very real possibility, is akin to going through your day half the time fearing the eternal burning gates of hell because you have been cheating on your wife.

i think maybe you misunderstood my post, i was suggesting that it's actually the opposite of being 'atheistic' to ignore the truly unknown danger of things only recently introduced to humans that have not been studied in the long term. To ignore it would be a form of willful tunnel vision or to have faith that we are being protected by the power structures above us. It's not a zero sum game or a black and white either or scenario as you make it out to be. I do not live in fear of the chemicals around me or the impurity of drinking water, I'm just simply saying that I don't pretend or have blind faith that fluoride or untested GMO food is healthy for me to ingest into my stomach like so many people seem to do. I'm accepting it as an 'unknown', the possibility that GMOs are totally fine while being untested are real possibilities as well, but what i'm suggesting is that to ignore it or deny it to me is short sighted

 

I think you're also inflating perhaps the loaded phrase of guinea pig. I'm not suggesting in any way that we're being tested on as part of some conspiracy, I emphasized at the end of my post that if anything it's an unconscious 'conspiracy' of not giving a fuck, a conspiracy of carelessness simply because profit above all other motives trumps public safety or anything else. I don't really understand why this is so outlandish to suggest. Many things used widely that are now considered unsafe would still be used if it wasn't for public outcry from the bottom up, a good example is DDT.

It just seems irresponsible and deferring to authority to look the other way and not wonder (note: wondering is different from being fearful) about the safety of what we consume regardless if it's passed FDA approval or not.

[syd syside]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The biggest problem is that we're evolutionarily wired to enjoy all this junk food. Back before the agricultural revolution when food was scarce and you didn't know when your next meal was coming from, it made perfect sense to load up on carbs, salt, fat, etc while you could. But now it's backfiring and taking decades off our expected lifespan.

 

 

And I'm curious what environmental factors would you suggest are responsible for disease?

Just the obvious, but general idea that we are exposed to toxins. It's pretty obvious but what's difficult to determine is what's really hurting us and what isn't. Just like pesticides, in theory some should be fairly awful, but how do we really know? We're playing guinea pig.. Is car exhaust hurting us? How about household cleaners? Hairspray? Preservatives?

 

Are we somehow to immune to all of these things? I don't think it's likely.

Just like your excellent point, which I was trying to avoid saying really (it's not a popular idea still), our ancestral environment even at the turn of the last century was so much different than the way we live now.

 

There's a lot of talk in this thread about how our current way of living is wasteful, not sustainable, not equal, etc.. All of these things are true. I've been extremely conscious of all of this lately.. it really makes me want to move into the woods and grow food and medicine. I'll still be close by but i'd like to remain as healthy as possible and not depend on the healthcare system so much until I die.

as much as people like to believe the products that we interact with on a daily basis are 'safe' and not toxic enough to cause major issues simply because they are legal or FDA approved, there is really no way of knowing. Maybe with a long term or generational study of a totally isolated population living in an atmosphere totally immune to radiation and the earth's post industrial revolution air supply, but that wouldn't really be possible. We are all part of a grand experiment, and some people would rather pretend everything is safe or that certain doses of radiation are 'relatively harmless' but let's be honest, that's a coping mechanism to deal with the totally legitimate fear of the unknown.

GMOS are a perfect example of people being guinea pigs in the new world economy. the FDA approved them since they are the genetic 'equivalent' of edible and known foods, but without long term studies of people who ingest them vs those who do not we have no fucking clue.

 

I find it amusing that apparently, at least here on this forum it's now considered 'liberal' by a few to have no faith in the US government or corporate stock holder's desire to keep us safe and healthy. Is it conspiratorial? Not really, unless you count an unconscious conspiracy of carelessness sprung out of the insatiable desire for profit as wearing a 'tin foil hat'. To me it's a lot scarier to think that the super rich who run things really don't give a fuck at all, rather than them being part of some grand conspiracy to kill us.

 

Fluoride is one that is associated with many paranoid conspiracy movements, but from just a rational standpoint. Why would you want to ingest an industrial waste product just to help keep your teeth clean? Is it even logical? Or have we been raised to believe that it's necessary?

The only real grand conspiracy that I know to be legit is how inaccurate and mis guided the food pyramid is.

 

 

But if you really want to suggest a healthy way of living is assuming all unknowns that involves the government are probably some grand experiment in which one is a guinea pig, then by all means... but for my atheist blood I'm not gonna give much thought to the idea that drinking water might be slowly eating away my body. It's fine if you want to live in paranoia, but as Eugene points out there is no science to really back up your fear. Sure the Government is capable of lying and doing stuff against the public's best interest... so its not absurd to imagine that its possible, just as its not absurd to imagine god might exist... but without any real evidence, accepting it as a very real possibility, is akin to going through your day half the time fearing the eternal burning gates of hell because you have been cheating on your wife.

i think maybe you misunderstood my post, i was suggesting that it's actually the opposite of being 'atheistic' to ignore the truly unknown danger of things only recently introduced to humans that have not been studied in the long term. To ignore it would be a form of willful tunnel vision or to have faith that we are being protected by the power structures above us. It's not a zero sum game or a black and white either or scenario as you make it out to be. I do not live in fear of the chemicals around me or the impurity of drinking water, I'm just simply saying that I don't pretend or have blind faith that fluoride or untested GMO food is healthy for me to ingest into my stomach like so many people seem to do.

 

"Most who fear genetically altered food are unaware that nearly all food has been genetically altered via artificial selection" - Neil deGrasse Tyson ‏@neiltyson

 

I can understand your point of view but I think there is a distinction that needs to be made between intent and just general scientific/biological unknowns. If you are saying scientists can't know what something does to our bodies over long periods of time, then sure thats most certainly possible and is something that should be researched more. But with the available science known there is little reason to hypothesize these things (fluoridation) have adverse effects on us. That's my distinction. I don't know what a lot of stuff will do to me if I consume it for long enough, but I'm not about to completely avoid public water / processed foods because of a small chance of it causing me health problems. I mean hell, anything can give you cancer or cause health problems if not used in moderation. Hopefully science/technology will keep progressing so that diseases etc will be cured and people will have no real fear for their health. That and universal healthcare for everyone I think is something we can agree on.

 

I appreciate your level of skepticism in regards to the government as that is what makes a good patriot. I'm just concerned with theories gaining more attention and credit than they deserve through fear tactics. I want dissent or rather would like dissent to start on one side of the spectrum, stuff that has the most evidence and science to back it up. Collectively if we could stay somewhat focused on that side of things, then the true motivation of improving government will be most evident and tactics trying to "tin foil" us will become unreasonable to mainstream thinking.