A Civilized Discussion on Gender Issues

[Guest A/D]

A very direct young man by the name of Zeffolia started a thread to address some interesting, less-discussed topics under the heading of "feminism". These were mainly:

 

1. The underreporting of female-initiated domestic violence

2. The idea that the male/female pay gap is down to the lifestyle choice of women

3. "Women have more legal rights than men do"/men's rights

 

I think it's going to be really interesting to talk about these in an open-minded way. So, dear mods, I hope this won't offend as the original thread was (probably rightly) locked. But I have hopes for a more learned discourse in this one.

 

For reference, here are some resources first introduced in the old thread

 

The Gender Paradigm In Domestic Violence

Wiki on Domestic Violence Against Men

 

The Wage Gap Myth

Women, Careers, and Work-Life Preferences

Female Graduates Earn Less Than Males (even if they studied the same subject)

Sports Host Says Women Lack Mental Aptitude for Formula 1

 

Men 2020

 

Personally I think that gender issues are way better than they were 50 years ago, but we still have a ways to go in breaking down traditional roles and achieving true equality (on both sides!). Much more to be discussed here.

 

I haven't waded through the wage gap thing yet, but I do have female friends who work just as hard as men with no kids in sight and are still paid less than their counterparts, so my gut instinct is to call that bullshit.

 

I think violence between men and women is not well understood. Maybe it's a mistake to "gender" it in the first place, as domestic violence certainly happens in same-sex couples as well. In the end, men or women can both be dominant in relationships, and dominance can be fluid. So I believe both sexes often abuse their power and cause their partners pain. I agree that woman-on-man violence is probably downplayed and ignored more often than it should be, and that "manning up" and admitting you were abused is going to be necessary to move on from this ridiculous idea of masculinity that's so pervasive in our cultures.

 

 

OK . . . GO!

 

 

Related discussion: a friend of mine is looking for a female synonym for "manning up". Any ideas? Ov' up? Fallopi on?

 

[Fred McGriff]

Let's talk about gender baby, let's talk about gender baby yeah.

 

I'm a feminist, for the record. I think we're a few generations away from equal pay in the workforce because there are still plenty of old boys clubs at the top running things. Even still, savvy women who are hiring will take advantage of perceived value and pay women less according to market value. But wouldn't you think if a woman knew what a male counterpart was making that would be enough leverage to acquire equal pay in many cases?

 

A hardworking woman is a bitch while a hard working man is exceeding expectations and being a good man and taking care of his family. How is this kind of mentality ever going away? The nature of work began as physical labor, where there is undeniable inequality. This physical inequality is the root of gender relation problems. We need to embrace that, and then it gets easier to accept our female sisters as intellectual partners in crime. Equality is not an issue so much as realizing that men and women complete each other and bring different things to the table that can make a company excel. Like a family. Plus, women are sexy as hell. With their legs all tasty looking and soft skin and beautiful faces. There seems to be a shortage of big dicked laid back dudes who don't have a problem letting the woman win the bread. Sexy ass women. Doin sexy things all day in those little shorts and tank tops.

[KovalainenFanBoy]

I don't like the term feminist, as it puts emphasis on the issue of women, which is kind of counterproductive. Using a more neutral term makes more sense to me, especially when your asking for neutrality; egalitarian for example. When someone identifies him/herself as a feminist, I get the feeling he/she doesn't care about sexism towards males.

[Blir]

Bitches ain't shit

[Fred McGriff]

How can you slap??

[gmanyo]

Here are a few things I've decided: I think that men are typically the oppressors in most situations, and I'm very wary of claims otherwise. I do think there's something to be said for male/white guilt, but it's so minor compared to real racism and sexism that it's hardly worth discussing. However, I don't think that women are any better than men, they just happen to have a lower number of natural urges to respond to, and happen to be in a less privileged social situation. But that doesn't excuse the actions of the oppressors; it's just that I don't really think anyone is that great a person/don't really trust that any people group really have better intentions or willpower than any other people group.

[Fred McGriff]

I don't like the term feminist, as it puts emphasis on the issue of women, which is kind of counterproductive. Using a more neutral term makes more sense to me, especially when your asking for neutrality; egalitarian for example. When someone identifies him/herself as a feminist, I get the feeling he/she doesn't care about sexism towards males.

 

I would agree with this to an extent; as a feminist I tend to pretty much dislike males in general. A few exceptions would be Andy Stott and Paul Konerko. Other than that, I could give a shit if males are victims of sexism. However, as a whole they are not, they are in the driver's seat, so feminism is more of a movement concerned with advancement of women to an equal playing field wherever applicable, not necessarily an anti-male movement.

[Guest A/D]

Hahahaha tasty tasty feminists. I mean feminism. Mmm!

 

Yeah, humanism FTW. The feminism I respect is really humanism, I think.

 

Sexual politics are also interesting. I've been thinking a lot about dominance in relationships lately. Sexual submission can actually be kind of dominant - it sets the whole framework in which your desires are satisfied. And I think it has to based on trust to work. The desire to be used or objectified is fascinating to me. I definitely have it sometimes and wonder where it comes from.

 

Also yes pls troll this thread it will create more replies

[Hoodie]

However, I don't think that women are any better than men, they just happen to have a lower number of natural urges to respond to....

 

can you explain what you mean by this?

[murve33]

I don't like the term feminist

I'm with you. It's a term that's been tarnished by Lesbian-Feminism Extremists, and Rightists who think that all feminists are Lesbian-Feminism Extremists. I've heard many female co-workers say something like "I'm not a feminist, I just think women and men should have equal rights".

 

Edit:

Yeah, humanism FTW. The feminism I respect is really humanism, I think.

I'm pretty sure humanism has a definition that's somewhat different from feminism. If it didn't, I feel like you'd hear that term thrown around a lot more than "feminism" since more people would be more apt to get behind it.

[Hoodie]

Plus, women are sexy as hell. With their legs all tasty looking and soft skin and beautiful faces. There seems to be a shortage of big dicked laid back dudes who don't have a problem letting the woman win the bread. Sexy ass women. Doin sexy things all day in those little shorts and tank tops.

 

you know, not all women are sexy. some are even terribly ugly.

[gmanyo]

 

However, I don't think that women are any better than men, they just happen to have a lower number of natural urges to respond to....

 

can you explain what you mean by this?

 

High levels of testosterone/sex drive. I was mainly thinking in sexual situations here. I don't really trust anyone to be that great a person. I guess guys might naturally have a naturally higher desire to be in control/exert power (or maybe not idk), but I KNOW men have a higher sex drive. However, I'm not going to pity men for having worse temptations or whatever, they're still assholes if they decide to follow their urges and sexually objectivize women. I just also don't expect that women would do any differently with the same sexual urges, because generally people are assholes, myself included.

[Fred McGriff]

Feminazis

 

 

Plus, women are sexy as hell. With their legs all tasty looking and soft skin and beautiful faces. There seems to be a shortage of big dicked laid back dudes who don't have a problem letting the woman win the bread. Sexy ass women. Doin sexy things all day in those little shorts and tank tops.

 

you know, not all women are sexy. some are even terribly ugly.

 

 

If they got feet i'm lickin their toes (with my wife's consent).

[eugene]

re: "wage gap is a myth".

 

technically this article is legit, per hour wage for men and women is probably very similar in most places that operate under the law in the west, but you have to look at the bigger picture. the problem with thearticle is this "When women behave in the workplace as men do, the wage gap between them is small" and this "Women make different choices, and those choices affect how they work. Women often place more importance on their relationships caring for children, parents, spouses, etc. ".

 

women are not expected to behave the way man do by the society and such expectations are a force to be reckoned with. the choices are not exactly choices a lot of the time but concession towards cultural/societal norms, it's still very uncomfortable for the dudes to take traditionally female roles like housekeeping and child-rearing and most societies still "feel" that it is much more natural for women to do this stuff, and no one wants to be a "freak". ultimately this results in women being more economically dependent and unequal, compared to men. you can say that accepted gender roles limit both genders but economically women suffer more from those.

[RichieBees]

i find the whole "boohoo i dont like that its called feminism that means they just want women to be equal and not men" as a thing thats said by people who dont know what the fuck theyre on about. from my understanding there was an egalitarian movement but it got fucked up by blokes so they had to use the term feminism (thats just from what ive read on the net so is probably false)

 

another thing i see about is dickhead blokes who think that rights are a zero sum game and if women get more equal men will be more unequal or some shit.

 

can i ask what role u guys think men play in the whole feminism thing, i like to think of myself as a feminist but then the way i see it some people wouldnt like men trying to dictate what feminism is etc etc

 

radical feminists who hate trans ppl can fuck off tho imo

 

also omg u cant even open the door these stupid bitches hate men boohoo not all feminists are straw(wo)men who hate blokes and yell at you for holding a door open for them grow the fuck up

[syd syside]

So men are oppressive by nature?

 

I'm born with a flaw and I have to work on it to heal myself?

 

Sounds kind of like a religion to me.

[Fred McGriff]

only the ones with small penises. and that's something you can't heal.

[murve33]

Edit: To build off of what Eugene said

 

Yes, there is a good bit of truth to that article. The wage gap that is determined by overall men's versus women's salleries is a poor measurement, because men are more likely to take jobs on oil rigs and other dangerous high paying jobs. I would argue that the wage gap is pretty minimal in the working class/blue-collar workplaces.

 

 

But, beyond that, there is certainly an unfair wage gap. Especially at the corporate level.

[Guest A/D]

another thing i see about is dickhead blokes who think that rights are a zero sum game and if women get more equal men will be more unequal or some shit.

Very well put actually.

 

can i ask what role u guys think men play in the whole feminism thing, i like to think of myself as a feminist but then the way i see it some people wouldnt like men trying to dictate what feminism is etc etc

I think it can be summed up with respect and not assuming things. Encourage making your own choices, compromise as best you can, be open with emotions. That's how I want to be treated and I hope it's how the world will be one day.

 

[Hoodie]

So men are oppressive by nature?

 

I'm born with a flaw and I have to work on it to heal myself?

 

Sounds kind of like a religion to me.

 

where are you getting your first statement from?

[gmanyo]

Are we looking at the US only? Women are oppressed much more in other societies.

[Glunk]

it's called feminism because equality involves empowering more women

[Guest iep]

it's called feminism because equality involves empowering more women

 

 

[gmanyo]

 

So men are oppressive by nature?

 

I'm born with a flaw and I have to work on it to heal myself?

 

Sounds kind of like a religion to me.

 

where are you getting your first statement from?

 

I think he was responding to my post. I was trying to say that pretty much everyone is oppressive/selfish by nature, but that due to certain natural inclinations it might be harder to make active steps to be selfless in certain areas, one of those being men and the sexual objectification of women. Doesn't make it excusable (i.e. w/e she tempted me/she was asking for it/didn't technically say no), but it doesn't mean men as a whole are worse people.

[syd syside]

 

So men are oppressive by nature?

 

I'm born with a flaw and I have to work on it to heal myself?

 

Sounds kind of like a religion to me.

 

where are you getting your first statement from?

 

 

"High levels of testosterone/sex drive."