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A Civilized Discussion on Gender Issues


Guest A/D

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So men are oppressive by nature?

 

I'm born with a flaw and I have to work on it to heal myself?

 

Sounds kind of like a religion to me.

 

where are you getting your first statement from?

 

Who cares?

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Gmanyo, if you've never met a woman with high levels of estrogen/sex drive, then I feel bad for you son.

 

(However, mammalian sex is highly male-focused, with homosexuality largely occuring among male populations. I believe this holds true in human cases as well.)

Oh yeah for sure, there are some horndog ladies out dere.

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it's called feminism because equality involves empowering more women

 

But that's just a means to an end. It makes more sense to me to name the movement after the end it's trying to achieve rather than the means used to achieve it. Also, like Murveman said before, the term feminism has lost its meaning thanks to extremists. Anyways we're just talking semantics, not that it has much relevance

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anyway ppl who havea problem with the term feminist say its only becuase its the word or wahtever

doesnt matter if its called feminism or egalitarianism or humanism (or oldskoolism or nuskoolism)

its going to involve the same fucking things so can we move past it somehow?

 

kind of like how some ppl think feminists dont care about mens issues where the wya i see it recognising how patriarchy tries to enforce certain roles on women (and men) just becuase of their gender is important and relevant to men adn women (ie boohoo men are conditioned to be big hunky men :((((((((((((((((( well u could say thats caused by patriarchy aswell so feminsim does afect the mans)

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However, I don't think that women are any better than men, they just happen to have a lower number of natural urges to respond to....

 

can you explain what you mean by this?

 

High levels of testosterone/sex drive. I was mainly thinking in sexual situations here. I don't really trust anyone to be that great a person. I guess guys might naturally have a naturally higher desire to be in control/exert power (or maybe not idk), but I KNOW men have a higher sex drive. However, I'm not going to pity men for having worse temptations or whatever, they're still assholes if they decide to follow their urges and sexually objectivize women. I just also don't expect that women would do any differently with the same sexual urges, because generally people are assholes, myself included.

 

hasn't this been scientifically disproven, the old myth that women have 'lower sex drives'? At least I thought it had been.

It's been proven in labs that women respond with the same amount of arousal from porn as males, puncturing the myth that 'women don't like porn' well their genitals do, according to blood flow measurements.

 

Gmanyo, if you've never met a woman with high levels of estrogen/sex drive, then I feel bad for you son.

 

(However, mammalian sex is highly male-focused, with homosexuality largely occuring among male populations. I believe this holds true in human cases as well.)

this

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The basic idea of fighting for equality is hard to disagree with. In that respect I'm totally on board with feminism.

 

Self-proclaimed feminists did make me :handegg: pretty hard once though. They accused me of trying to date-rape a dorky drunken Austrian beauty. Before you judge me, please read the spoiler, lol.

 

 

This girl approached me online, asked me to show her around town (she was a foreign exchange student), asked if we could go to a bar in a "cool" part of town, and when I took her, she drank 6 or 8 shots of tequila rapid-fire while telling me she could definitely handle herself, and got us both kicked out of the bar for being too drunk about twenty minutes later. I tried to hail a cab, but while I was doing this, she 1) tried to give me head while we were on a crowded street, then 2) tried to climb a chain-link fence when I said no and she got offended. Some manly young women saw this happening, literally grabbed the Austrian girl and pulled her into their cab, and told me I couldn't be trusted, that I was just trying to take advantage of her. They wouldn't have my objections, so eventually I said "fine, she just needs to go home. That better be where you're taking her." and they said it was. Fact is, I didn't trust them one bit either. They eventually "gave" the Austrian girl back to me, as she was unable to fight for herself at this point, I got her home, then went home myself, thoroughly disgusted by drunks and sober political-lensing of every social act in the damn world, and fell asleep with my dick in my hand. The two of us did get freaky later that year though, then found out we had nothing ideologically in common and stopped talking, so it all ended well, I guess.

 

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Guest Aserinsky

On the whole "Why feminism and not humanism / equalism" debate, this video sums it up pretty well (Apologies to just dump this in here without writing a proper response, I'm in the final week of writing my dissertation and don't have enough time to write out a thought out response / participate fully in the thread)

 

[youtubehd]5kSz-SqpJts#![/youtubehd]

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I've checked my white male privilege, and apparently there's nothing I can say on this subject without either coming off as a wimp or offensive.

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Here are some more sources. I wanted to keep the other thread short and sweet to be in line with the attention span of typical WATMM posters, but apparently the short list I gave was too much for them to handle and the lowest of the bunch started joking about chair legs in anuses (sexual violence towards men - what is viewed as a funny dinner topic but not as much so if against women) so I didn't add them all before:



~~~Domestic violence has been shown to exhibit gender symmetry.


Partner Abuse State of Knowledge Project http://puu.sh/2B315.pdf


The Gender Paradigm In Domestic Violence: Research And Theoryhttp://puu.sh/2B2jz.pdf


Women Who Batter Their Partners http://puu.sh/2B2g4.pdf


Differences in Frequency of Violence and Reported Injury Between Relationships With Reciprocal and Nonreciprocal Intimate Partner Violence: http://puu.sh/2B2h6.pdf




~~~Unsolicited sexually aggressive behaviors have been shown to exhibit gender symmetry

Women’s Sexual Aggression Against Men: Prevalence and Predictorshttp://puu.sh/2B2kn.pdf


References examining assaults by womnen on their spouses or male partners http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm




~~~The Wage Gap can be largely attributed to personal preference, not systematic discrimination against women in the workplace

The Wage Gap Myth http://puu.sh/2B2mh.pdf


Women, careers, and work-life preferences http://puu.sh/2B2ru.pdf




~~~Giving women an equal number of positions in corporate management positions, for the sake of equality, has been proven to reduce corporate performance

‘Improving’ gender diversity on boards leads to a decline in corporate performance: the evidence http://puu.sh/2B2pU.pdf




~~~Women have the advantage in education, and males are the ones suffering and lagging behind because of systematic gender based discrimination

Non-cognitive Skills and the Gender Disparities in Test Scores and Teacher Assessments: Evidence from Primary Schoolhttp://puu.sh/2B2sW.pdf


Wayward Sons http://puu.sh/2B2sj.pdf

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sexual violence towards men - what is viewed as a funny dinner topic but not as much so if against women

 

it's genuinely difficult to take you seriously when you make comments like this. i happen to live in the real world, where misogynist jokes are de rigueur so your comment just sounds resentful. i'll take a look at your links but i'm not hopeful.

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sexual violence towards men - what is viewed as a funny dinner topic but not as much so if against women

 

it's genuinely difficult to take you seriously when you make comments like this. i happen to live in the real world, where misogynist jokes are de rigueur so your comment just sounds resentful. i'll take a look at your links but i'm not hopeful.

 

nobody serious on mainstream media or a public figure EVER makes jokes about women being raped or sexually abused, or they're kicked off TV or from their political position

 

but to do the same about men it's no big deal

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first of all, i highly doubt the legitimacy of that claim. but more importantly, complaining about whether rape jokes are fairly distributed is incredibly strange to me in light of the fact that actual rape against women is a serious problem throughout the entire world.

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first of all, i highly doubt the legitimacy of that claim. but more importantly, complaining about whether rape jokes are fairly distributed is incredibly strange to me in light of the fact that actual rape against women is a serious problem throughout the entire world.

Rape against men is a more serious problem

 

In just about every country men are raped in greater percentages than women are

 

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/men-outnumber-women-among-american-rape-victims/

 

These figures tend not to be reported, however, because in many states it's legitimately not even considered the term "rape" if a woman forces a man to penetrate her. "Rape" is only defined as when a criminal forcefully penetrates a victim, not when one is forced to penetrate.

 

And the jail rape issue is just avoided altogether because nobody gives a fuck.

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Another set of rights in the US that I forgot to mention

 

-Women are BORN with the right to vote when they turn 18

-Men are NOT.

 

-Women have the right to abdicate parental responsibilities through a number of means (like abortion)

-Men have no rights whatsoever in this area and have to go entirely with what the WOMAN wants.

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sexual violence towards men - what is viewed as a funny dinner topic but not as much so if against women

 

it's genuinely difficult to take you seriously when you make comments like this. i happen to live in the real world, where misogynist jokes are de rigueur so your comment just sounds resentful. i'll take a look at your links but i'm not hopeful.

 

nobody serious on mainstream media or a public figure EVER makes jokes about women being raped or sexually abused, or they're kicked off TV or from their political position

 

but to do the same about men it's no big deal

 

 

I wish that were true (no one ever makes jokes about rape) but it's not, many woman are told that they were 'asking for it' or it was there fault in some way or even that they are liars.

 

A close friend of mine whom is male was abused by his partner and it was awful, his abuse was mainly mental, which as we are aware can be almost more damaging. I know it does happen, it really is awful when it does happen. It's funny that you keep saying about men not reporting it because they are seen as weak etc etc (In fact in the previous gender thread you stated that 'they would be seen as pussies') because you are stating that the male would be female's genitalia if he were to report it it does worry me that you have this as a belief, so I would like to know if you would think it was funny/pathetic of a man to be abused by a woman?

 

Where I live there are quite a few signs with a man with a black eye and a statement about domestic abuse, times are changing.

 

I think it would be interesting to see that statistics of domestic abuse in same sex relationships (both male and female) I wonder if this could shed any light on the matter.

 

 

As a woman myself, I understand how woman work (I know right?) and our minds are more set up to work with linguistics and social behaviour rather than physical- so I can quite believe many males are abused by woman but this could be in forms of control (stopping you from seeing family/friends isolating the 'victim') and general putting down (making the parter feel insignificant) these do also happen with men abusing women but maybe not the levels in which a woman could go to or understand.

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first of all, i highly doubt the legitimacy of that claim. but more importantly, complaining about whether rape jokes are fairly distributed is incredibly strange to me in light of the fact that actual rape against women is a serious problem throughout the entire world.

Rape against men is a more serious problem

 

In just about every country men are raped in greater percentages than women are

 

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/men-outnumber-women-among-american-rape-victims/

 

These figures tend not to be reported, however, because in many states it's legitimately not even considered the term "rape" if a woman forces a man to penetrate her. "Rape" is only defined as when a criminal forcefully penetrates a victim, not when one is forced to penetrate.

 

And the jail rape issue is just avoided altogether because nobody gives a fuck.

 

 

Uh, your article is making the case that men are raping other men.. Are you sure this discounts feminism in any way?

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i think someone else needs to take the reigns here who disagrees with feminist theory. Your claims just are sounding less credible over time

 

(response to post above Rixxx)

All of my claims are factually correct

 

Please refute them if you wish to claim I am losing credibility, sir.

 

Which claims of mine in particular do you have issues with?

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"bunch of links to pdfs"

that's not how you argue something on an internet forum man, do you want others to just bring up a bunch of links in reply to your bunch of links and call it an argument ?

if you want to show why feminism is bullshit just explain it in your own words and refer to other sources when needed, otherwise it's pointless, everyone can google "feminism is wrong" or "feminism is awesome" and come up with a ton of articles.

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first of all, i highly doubt the legitimacy of that claim. but more importantly, complaining about whether rape jokes are fairly distributed is incredibly strange to me in light of the fact that actual rape against women is a serious problem throughout the entire world.

Rape against men is a more serious problem

 

In just about every country men are raped in greater percentages than women are

 

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/men-outnumber-women-among-american-rape-victims/

 

These figures tend not to be reported, however, because in many states it's legitimately not even considered the term "rape" if a woman forces a man to penetrate her. "Rape" is only defined as when a criminal forcefully penetrates a victim, not when one is forced to penetrate.

 

And the jail rape issue is just avoided altogether because nobody gives a fuck.

 

 

Uh, your article is making the case that men are raping other men.. Are you sure this discounts feminism in any way?

 

I didn't even mention feminism in my response to his post

 

I simply said that males being a victim of rape is more of a problem than women being the victims of rape, since the majority of rape victims are males

 

Unless of course you want to say that since it's male-on-male the victim can be blamed because his gender is the same as the perpetrator

 

In which case it'd be equally alright to say black-on-black theft is justifiable and not a problem which I'm sure you'd disagree with.

 

 

 

"bunch of links to pdfs"

that's not how you argue something on an internet forum man, do you want others to just bring up a bunch of links in reply to your bunch of links and call it an argument ?

if you want to show why feminism is bullshit just explain it in your own words and refer to other sources when needed, otherwise it's pointless, everyone can google "feminism is wrong" or "feminism is awesome" and come up with a ton of articles.

 

I did state my claims

 

They are the titles of the groups of pdfs. The pdfs are simply as a reference to support the claim as factual

 

And in the original thread I made all sorts of other claimant posts as well and the only responses I got were reaction gifs and jokes about chair legs in anuses.

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I read through the Wage Gap Myth article, the Women's Sexual Aggression Against Men article and the one about Gender Diversity causing Corporate Performance to decline.

 

The Wage Gap article - yeah, how dare those women have children and take time off! Stupid biology making women the only ones physically capable of birthing children. But hey it's their choice, there's never pressure from the husband, family, society.

 

Women's Sexual Aggression study - small sample sizes and very low percentages of actual physical violence reported by women...I wonder what the same study would show for men self-reporting?

 

The gender Diversity one - well the first study they cite shows a significant drop in stock price - I wonder how much of that is related to the preconceived notion that women do not perform well on the board? the next three studies they look at focus on economic performance of corporations during a global economic crisis, and the last study says that with more women on the board, firms engage in more risk taking, and says nothing about the performance of the firms in question.

 

So based on those three, I'm gonna guess the others are just as shoddy.

 

And speaking personally, I believe that the effect of the violence plays a huge role. As has been noted, physical trauma as a result of partner violence is much greater when it perpetrated by males. I've stopped women from hitting me in the face or the junk, but otherwise I'm not bothered. I would never hit a woman though, cause I know the potential for causing serious injury is really high, regardless of where I hit them. To dismiss that effect out of hand is an oversight in my opinion.

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