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A Civilized Discussion on Gender Issues


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About the attractiveness point: men have to deal with that as well. And I really don't see how women are at a bigger disadvantage ( but that's coming from a male point of view of course). The most obvious difference is the way men or women are considered attractive. For women it's a more superficial thing than for men, perhaps. Although things are equalizing, men generally can get away more easy with not looking perfect (that was your point, right?). But the relationship between looking good and attractiveness is slightly different for men (in general, and these differences are getting smaller, i feel). Without the focus on looks, but instead on attractiveness ( whatever you can put in that box besides looks), I think unattractive men are at an equal disadvantage as unattractive women. Key is how attractiveness is defined of course.

The only research I can remember which is relevant in this context, is research about the relation between facial symmetry ( looks...) and salaries. I can't find the article, but remember a 15% higher income for people with a high symmetry. Men or women. And this is with sidestepping the attractiveness issue, of course.

 

Anyways, it's extremely difficult to prove these kinds of things. So the research I remembered maybe garbage. But that doesn't prove the opposite hypothesis either, innit?

 

I've had to deal with a lot of shit for being a girl in this forum and that chairleganus fiasco was sadly empowering- that's what watmm has reduced me to.

 

What!? Fiasco? Well, I had fun for not being on the receiving end of the chairleg. And no thanks for sadly empowering you. Glad to help!?

 

Wtf...

 

 

I'm just curious, and this is not meant as a troll, and if the question is too offensive, please feel free to ignore it, but do you have some personal experience where you have been assaulted by a woman? Or is this as a result of being passed over for a job that a woman ended up getting?

 

My views are the result of red pill untethering from feminist dogma and absolute disgust at the hypocrisy of feminism

 

They want equality when it helps them, not when it hurts

 

They want to raise proportions of women on management boards in the corporate sector and other high ranking jobs.

But they don't want to raise the proportion of female coal miners and sewage workers.

 

They want to be treated as if they are just as competent as men

Yet they don't want to bear the responsibilities that come with that such as the potential to be forced into a parental position

 

I could go on and on but nobody here will read it anyway so I won't bother.

I was about to ask the same question, because I can't help but wonder why you invest so much in the defense of your side of the argument. But seeing your response I get that you're either not willing to come out of the closet ( no homo), or you're in denial perhaps. Because I don't think people defend a position like you're doing without something personal at stake. And I think that's more than just your watmm ego.

Regardless, I feel the discussion is actually pretty pointless without being honest and open about the reason why we're (you're) having this discussion. Obviously, other people don't mind so you can ignore me in 1000 ways, but this is just how I feel about it.

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I didn't even mention feminism in my response to his post

 

I simply said that males being a victim of rape is more of a problem than women being the victims of rape, since the majority of rape victims are males

 

That's fine, as long as 'more of a problem' = 'happens more often.' But where I can't go along with you is in the broader context of your claims that there is not a wage gap and, implicitly, that women are systematically disempowered or disenfranchised in the workplace. You might not be meaning to say that 'more men raped than women' implies 'men are in a worse social position than women,' but your making both arguments together suggests you think they go together, which maybe one thing people are resisting so strongly here (since they have nothing to do with each other).

 

What are these broader implications?

 

If anything men are being disenfranchised from the work force with the high potential for sexual harassment charges being enforced upon men

 

Women entered a male dominated environment of those careers and forced men to change the way they are to suit their needs, rather than women themselves changing to fit the environment.

 

why is it male dominated to begin with ? because women choose to be poorer and less self sufficient than men ? it's true that many women can be content with their position but those who aren't are facing serious obstacles, that's the main problem i think.

and what unreasonable change are women forcing exactly, the plead to not sexually harass them ?

 

Because men have always been forcefully placed into the role of provider

 

Women are born with innate value because of their uteri.

Men have to prove their value through their accomplishments.

 

Hence areas where personal dedication and working towards accomplishments is present, men dominate

 

But you're forgetting how disadvantaged a woman is if she's unattractive. In that case I'd say they have to work significantly harder than men to prove their value to most of society. Even then they're most-likely going to be critiqued more on their looks than their credentials. This is obviously a problem for men also but it would be ridiculous to claim that it's to the same extent.

If anything the problem you raised here is men's fault for valuing a female simply because of her level of attractiveness.

 

Anyway I really don't want to get sucked into this argument so I probably won't be posting anymore. 'Just thought it was important to raise this point.

 

It is more of a problem for men

 

Many studies (OKCupid study in particular) show that women tend to rate 80% of men as having "below average" looks

 

Men rate closer to 50% as having "below average" looks

 

Women's expectations of men are so high that they are statistically impossible to be accurate representations of reality.

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I was about to ask the same question, because I can't help but wonder why you invest so much in the defense of your side of the argument. But seeing your response I get that you're either not willing to come out of the closet ( no homo), or you're in denial perhaps. Because I don't think people defend a position like you're doing without something personal at stake. And I think that's more than just your watmm ego.

Regardless, I feel the discussion is actually pretty pointless without being honest and open about the reason why we're (you're) having this discussion. Obviously, other people don't mind so you can ignore me in 1000 ways, but this is just how I feel about it.

Why I'm having the discussion is completely irrelevant

 

I'd just like to spread the word about MRA ideas the same way Feminists do for their ideas. Nothing wrong with that.

 

As you should be able to see in this thread, there are a lot of misconceptions that even intelligent people at WATMM have fallen for

 

"Unequal pay for equal work" is one of these. Skewed numbers have perpetuated this one

 

"Men tend to initiate domestic violence more often than women" is another.

 

If I educate even a few people on the subject and make them think and be a bit more critical of feminism and their views, I will consider my job done. Though feminism does have some valid complaints and is relevant in some areas in some ways, their war has already been won pretty much and it's leading to less rights for men

 

Many men don't want to admit this because speaking out against feminism makes you seem like a conservative bigot, but there are legitimate concerns over just how factual - or nonfactual - many statistics spread by feminists really are.

 

Another major influence on my reason for making this thread is that I'm bored as fuck right now, and you know what happens when Uni finals are coming around the corner - everything unrelated to them is entertaining.

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Here is the OKCupid study which proves men are judged by women for their looks more than women are judged by men

 

http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-looks-and-online-dating/

 

I'd like to clarify my statement earlier when I said men closer to 50% of women as below average. By closer I meant closer than 80% is, not that they are nearing exactly 50%. Bad wording.

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It is completely relevant. Why wouldn't it be relevant? If we're discussing the israeli-palestina conflict, would you think it would be irrelevant to know that eugene actually lives in israel whenever he defends the israeli point of view? It creates the necessary context. And I also disagree with your earlier point the personal experiences don't count (eg. Your pretty blunt response to rixxx). They do count, even if they need to be put in a -again! - context.

 

If personal experiences or context don't matter, I feel this discussion doesn't matter. Because it's basically a match about who's the best in using google and who has read the most articles. Good luck with your meaningless pissing contest though.

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It is completely relevant. Why wouldn't it be relevant? If we're discussing the israeli-palestina conflict, would you think it would be irrelevant to know that eugene actually lives in israel whenever he defends the israeli point of view? It creates the necessary context. And I also disagree with your earlier point the personal experiences don't count (eg. Your pretty blunt response to rixxx). They do count, even if they need to be put in a -again! - context.

 

If personal experiences or context don't matter, I feel this discussion doesn't matter. Because it's basically a match about who's the best in using google and who has read the most articles. Good luck with your meaningless pissing contest though.

I apologize then fine sir for wanting to have a logical argument

 

Anecdotal evidence is never excusable. Nor is the personality or motivations of a writer.

 

Address arguments as they stand, not based on who wrote them. And personal stories being used to make generalizations about an entire population is a one person sample size which you (I think it was you) criticized one of my sources for - a small sample size.

 

tl;dr

Anecdotal evidence is fallacious

So is attempting to draw conclusions based on who wrote a point, and using them to claim that point is false.

 

I could be a Nazi, anti-Semitic, woman hater, and even if that were the case, if I argued against some hypothetical new law giving black Jewish women the first choice at all jobs on the grounds of that being discrimination against non-"black-Jewish-females", I would be correct - that would be discrimination. And claiming I was wrong based solely on who I am would be fallacious and inexcusable in what is supposed to be a civil, intellectual argument.

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I'll give you some more 'anecdotal' reference why it matters:

- bias

 

Ever read articles about the effects of medicines and noticed the part where the authors have to make clear what their connections to the industry are? Why? Because 'scientific' logic just is not enough. There's not such thing as an unbiased logical argument, unless you live in a world of symbols and formulas. I hope you understand the world of feminism hasnt got much to do with symbols and formulas.

 

Look, it's already clear you're not ready to come out of your closet. That's fine. But don't bullshit us with telling us thats irrelevant. That just denial on your side.

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I'll give you some more 'anecdotal' reference why it matters:

- bias

 

Ever read articles about the effects of medicines and noticed the part where the authors have to make clear what their connections to the industry are? Why? Because 'scientific' logic just is not enough. There's not such thing as an unbiased logical argument, unless you live in a world of symbols and formulas. I hope you understand the world of feminism hasnt got much to do with symbols and formulas.

 

Look, it's already clear you're not ready to come out of your closet. That's fine. But don't bullshit us with telling us thats irrelevant. That just denial on your side.

Syllogistic logic can be used in all subjects.

 

And those references are used to clarify that the person has scientific knowledge on the subject they were researching, if they collected data.

 

If this is your argument then please critique the people who wrote the articles and publications I am referencing, not me as a person. I did not collect this data, so my personal biases and shortcomings are not influencing it at all. Nor are they influencing my argument as it stands. Only my motivation for putting effort into bringing up the topic here.

 

And what closet do I need to come out of lol can you please clarify. Am I gay?

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Guest RadarJammer

I wonder which sex would have the most problem with the idea of gender being phased out through transhumanism?

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No, you're acting like a stupid baboon.

 

I'm not saying logic cant be used, so don't distort the argument as if that was my point.

 

I've made my points clear. If you want to dance around, that's fine. You can dance all you want. It just looks a bit silly when you're alone on the dancefloor.

 

About the references: are you kidding? So a scientist who works for a pharmaceutical company has to show he works for one because it shows his knowledge? Are you trolling me, or just completely stupid?

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No, you're acting like a stupid baboon.

 

I'm not saying logic cant be used, so don't distort the argument as if that was my point.

 

If made my points clear. If you want to dance around, that's fine. You can dance all you want. It just looks a bit silly when you're alone on the dancefloor.

If it can be used/applied then pointing out logical fallacies in the opposition's argument can also be used. So thanks for proving my point.

 

And alright I'm not sure what I'm dancing around but keep up the personal attacks boy'o

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that Okcupid study is interesting but the take away I get from it is that regardless of how 'high' women's general standards are from men's looks, they'll end up sleeping with and hooking up with plenty of people who are below that threshold as long as they have the swagger and bravado ladies like. Seems to almost be a more important factor than being above a 6/10 in the looks department. Or to word it another way packaging (dress,style) and attitude are overall more important factors than the looks you were born with.

What do you guys think of the male birth control pill? It's been in the news for at least a decade but the demand doesn't seem high enough to bring it to market perhaps? Not sure the reasons exactly but all this talk about abortion being a 'woman's right' brings me to birth control. The fact that men currently don't have a choice to inseminate a woman during sex or not seems strange to me in 2013 when women have had hormone based birth control as long as I've been alive.

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that Okcupid study is interesting but the take away I get from it is that regardless of how 'high' women's general standards are from men's looks, they'll end up sleeping with and hooking up with plenty of people who are below that threshold as long as they have the swagger and bravado ladies like. Seems to almost be a more important factor than being above a 6/10 in the looks department

it seems both self evident, and I believe it's backed up by studies, that women are less obsessed with looks than men, right? Which I've certainly seen in my 39 years on this planet. The old saw about women being more interested in security (whether in the form of a tough guy, or a guy with money, etc - however they define security) than a guy with good looks. Makes perfect sense as the end result is to be protected while they make babby.

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Guest Iain C

 

Many studies (OKCupid study in particular) show that women tend to rate 80% of men as having "below average" looks

 

Men rate closer to 50% as having "below average" looks

 

Ah yes, Okcupid - that notoriously representative, unbiased sample of humanity. Lol.

 

Here's what godel thinks you're dancing around, imho: you've been hurt badly. You're lashing out. You've not had much romantic success. I assume you've been rejected. You consider yourself physically unattractive.

 

You're angry at women. You're desperate to regain a sense of self worth. And you've found an easy explanation which requires exactly zero self-examination.

 

 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

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Many studies (OKCupid study in particular) show that women tend to rate 80% of men as having "below average" looks

 

Men rate closer to 50% as having "below average" looks

 

Ah yes, Okcupid - that notoriously representative, unbiased sample of humanity. Lol.

 

Here's what godel thinks you're dancing around, imho: you've been hurt badly. You're lashing out. You've not had much romantic success. I assume you've been rejected. You consider yourself physically unattractive.

 

You're angry at women. You're desperate to regain a sense of self worth. And you've found an easy explanation which requires exactly zero self-examination.

 

 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

Okay yes it's a bit biased whatever.

 

And even if that were the case about me, who cares. It's not relevant

 

I can assure you, however, it is not the case.

 

What you're saying is the equivalent of "Okay I know why you're a feminist, you're an ugly man-woman who can't get a boyfriend to stick with her for more than a quick fuck"

 

Real cool lol. Not. And not a valid argument either. Keep it off this "civil" thread.

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I don't think it's irrelevant. If you got burned by a woman or had a really bad experience with one (them) I'm sure the forum would be interested to hear a personal story about it. might give posters a clearer perspective on your beliefs. I got really badly dumped at the end of highschool and in part I was fucked up from it for many years. As a result I was distant and pretty bitter about women in general. (in this post I'm assuming you're male, if not my apologies, no offense intended whatsoever)

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has anyone done a study about how much the choice of one's avatar determines the successful outcome of online social interactions?

 

I'm guessing my downs-syndrome doll avatar works wonders because everyone knows mongos are easy



I got really badly dumped at the end of highschool and in part I was fucked up from it for many years. As a result I was distant and pretty bitter about women in general.

same, but in hindsight, that was because I was a big immature pussy who couldn't handle rejection :-)

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Guest Iain C

The thing is, and unlike a lot of feminists I think it's actually quite a sad thing, is that I think a lot of MRA types are actually in quite genuine emotional pain. It seems like a logical next step from the rightly detested "nice guy" stereotype. The faulty logic is "Well being unfailingly nice didn't get me laid - let's try being an absolute knob instead."

 

Don't get me wrong, it's reprehensible. But at the core of it, driving it onwards, is loneliness and pain.

 

Of course that pain comes from a sense of frustrated entitlement, so I'm not massively sympathetic. But I do have a solution. There's a good chance chemical castration might improve your quality of life. Please mention it to your physician.

 

 

 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

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