Transgender

[Guest A/D]

Zaphod, what you're describing sounds a lot like depression/soul-searching/anxiety-type stuff. I can understand why you'd link it to trans issues since she was so heavily focused on them at the time. But a lot of people with anxiety or psych issues in general are a bit solipsistic (speaking as one myself). I think you have to treat being trans as its own deal and not link it with the circumstances you find in one case (sample size pls).

[lumpenprol]

 

 

Not really, no. Oestrogen allows women to have a full complement of emotions, but it doesn't exactly make you unstable.

tell that to a room full of men, lol

 

 

 

Above that, having more testosterone doesn't make much of a difference until you get a crazily unsafe amount in your system, then it gets really dangerous fast. This is what happens with bodybuilders who do steroids, from what I understand.

 

but roid rage aside, the medical controversy surrounding hormone replacement therapy for post-menopausal women has nothing to do with "crazy unsafe" amounts either. In theory it's only about "replacing what you lost", but it still can have serious compllications (apparently...the debate is ongoing)

 

 

 

I find it curious how people seem so against what's essentially constructive surgery when it's on a body part that's not right for your brain, but in contrast seem just fine with what's essentially also constructive surgery when it's on a deformation of the body that they themselves also wouldn't want. For example, no one's told me I was unethical to have my keloids somewhat removed (or at least vastly tidied) by surgeons on the NHS.

 

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss people's reactions as being informed only by their hard-coded gender identity, or their old-fashioned upbringing, though. Sure, I'm guessing most of us do feel a tingle in our lizard brains that "this is not normal or natural", but it goes further. This is not ordinary constructive surgery we're talking about, I would say it's more akin to saying "I've always felt like a blind person inside, so I'm going to put out my eyes". You're getting rid of a part of yourself that is fully functional, and moreso than eyes, gonads actually allow you to procreate. So it's not the same as removing a keloid.

 

 

 

And yes, we established earlier that fixing your body in this regard leads to a stellar satisfaction rating.

did we? I did get the sense from the preceding talk that more transgender are satisfied with the surgery than not, but stellar might be overstating a tad? Given the, again, "political" atmosphere around transgender issues, I'm guessing most post-ops who were dissatisfied wouldn't be beating their chests and shouting from the rooftops about it - they've got so much invested in their new identity already. No, I'm not saying the majority are liars, but I do wonder about the satisfaction levels. I've read some very unhappy reports about penile enlargement, and I class this surgery as being similar, but more drastic...

 

 

 

Again, you really shouldn't talk about things you haven't researched. The clit isn't made out of foreskin. Go and look it up if you're that interested. You may be surprised at how good the results are. (Generally, people can't tell.)

 

Believe it or not, I did research this stuff years before we had this conversation, as I was quite curious about how it was done. I use "foreskin" or "chopping your dick off" as a glib shorthand, because I have no idea what the sensitive parts of the dick that aren't foreskin are medically called, and "slicing, inverting, restitching" etc don't have the same ring to them.

 

As for the last part, I accept your Pepsi challenge. I feel pretty strongly that'd I'd be able to instantly tell if I was dealing with an ersatz pussy, because I love pussy. I'm not the sort of guy that gets drunk in a pub then goes to fuck the nearest warm hole. It's not just a matter of appearance - I know how the tendons around the vagina are supposed to feel and react, what the cervix feels like, how the clit reacts and the vagina lubes itself....but yeah, "willing to be proven wrong" lol...

 

 

 

 

There's not much to tell. It works, I'm happy, which is more than I can say about beforehand.

 

Hmm, you can't "get off" that easily. I'd be much more interested in reading an essay called "test driving my new pussy", than reading a bunch of white papers. Do you have any good links?

 

 

 

Again, if you try to imagine why a man would want to be a woman or vice versa, you're not going to understand transsexualism because that's not what it is. If you instead try to imagine why a man would want to appear as such and vice versa, then it all makes complete sense.

 

yeah, I hear you, but this is not as simple as it seems. As you often point out, there's a difference between gender identity and sexual orientation. But when I think about myself, about what makes me "a guy", I think it's defined much more by the object of my attraction, than by what's between my legs. What I mean is, I think I realized much earlier that "I liked girls" before I had any idea what to do with them. Which means, I think, if I were a kid who discovered "I like girls, they give me a tingly feeling", and then I looked down and happened to have a vagina, I'd probably start to think of myself as a lesbian. I don't think I'd look down and think "why don't I have a penis??!" Similarly, if I was playing with trucks and army men, it wasn't "because I thought I was a man", it was because these were the things I liked. So, if I happened to be a boy who liked to dress in girl's clothing, and play with dolls, I'd probably think of myself as "a person who likes to play with dolls and wear girl's clothing, and as an afterthought, I happened to notice I have a penis between my legs". It would be other people's intolerance of this that made me very self-conscious.

 

So yes, as I've said before, it's very hard for me to think of a pre-pubescent kid as being anything other than rather androgynous, and "agendered". They haven't hit puberty, after all...

 

That said though...

 

Since we started this conversation I've been watching videos by transgender kids on youtube, like the one I posted earlier (that no-one commented on). In those videos, some of these boys were saying "I'm a girl" from a very young age. Which is interesting. I do wonder, if society was more accepting of guys who dressed as women, would they feel the same pressure to conform to the normal female stereotypes (and therefore get the surgery and hormone treatments)? I wonder how many transgenders go the route of surgery and hormones just because they are tired of ridicule, of sticking out like a sore thumb...

 

To give an example, when I was a kid my mom, being a good hippie parent, got me a little drawing workbook called something like "all about my body" or something. It was, actually, a pretty sick (in hindsight) attempt to get kids to think about their sexuality probably long before it was necessary. It asked leading questions, one was "draw a picture of a beautiful woman". Hilariously, I drew, fairly clearly (I ended up being an artist), a slut in rouge and mascara, with big tits, reclining on a sofa. I don't think this means "wow, look at what a red-blooded male he was, from such an early age", I think it means that I had absorbed, through advertising, popular notions of gender identity from a very early age. It's completely pervasive, and surrounds us. I can only assume that a little transgendered kid would notice exactly the same stuff. Seldom in popular media or literature do you see people dressing and acting as the opposite sex, unless it's Bowie, or Prince...and even then, not really. So there's literally very little popular reinforcement for the idea that you could be "a guy who dresses as a girl" or "girl who dresses as a guy". Shame really. I wonder if these kids would react differently if they had more role models...

[delet...]

do transppl dream of robotic sheep

 

In New Zealand they do.

 

I suppose if you were in england you would say 'in Whales they do', I don't know what the equivllent would be in america, perhaps South Dakota.

[ZoeB]

Tiptoeing around the casual misogyny you just threw in there...

 

Obviously there's still a lot of scientific research to be carried out regarding hormones, but in the case of transsexualism in particular, clearly something that stops you being suicidal would have to be much more dangerous than this in order to reduce your life expectancy or quality of life.

 

Yes, we established stellar amounts of satisfaction. Specifically, according to Sex Reassignment. Thirty Years of International Follow-up Studies, 71% of women's and 90% of men's operations had positive results, and if you isolate just the last ten years before the survey was published, given the improved techniques offered, the results were positive for 87% of women and 97% for men, to paraphrase Ampersand's concise summary.

Regarding the, uh, less dry essay you asked for, I've never read such a thing, but you're welcome to search the web. I'm sure something along those lines must exist somewhere.

You seem to be under the misapprehension that your body's sex has no baring on anything outside of the act of having sex (I can see how the English language doesn't do much to dissuade such an opinion either). I think this is fundamentally false. Having the wrong puberty sunk me into a deep depression that I didn't need to be with anyone else (in any sense) in order to appreciate.

 

See also my previous comment way back about not conflating gender identity (your innate neurological sex, set prenatally) with gender roles (which are largely arbitrary and defined by societies, often conflicting with those of other societies). For example, when I was a child, I took ballet lessons, which would have been unusual for a boy, but that's not the reason I wasn't a boy. Similarly, I programmed my home computer in a primitive sort of way, which is all too unusual for girls still (presumably due to preconceived notions about gender on our parents' part), but that didn't stop me being a girl.

Remember how I said that transsexuals aren't cissexuals who deviate from the norm in some way and have changed sex in order to fit in? I meant it. I'm not sure how much you know about fitting in, but rule number one, pretty much, is don't change sex. It gets you ostracised from many places very quickly.

Similarly, be careful not to conflate cross dressers with transsexuals. Cross dressers don't change sex, because they're cissexual. (They're not entirely cisgender, but really transgender and cisgender are umbrella terms covering quite different groups of people.)

Transsexuals do not conform to stereotypes any more than cissexuals do. (As in, some people in both groups do, and most don't.) The idea that we all conform to stereotypes is itself a stereotype. Look at my avatar. Does it really look to you like I'm conforming to sexual stereotypes?

 

"I wonder how many transgenders go the route of surgery and hormones just because they are tired of ridicule, of sticking out like a sore thumb"

Just think for a second about how people such as yourself seem dead against the existence of transsexuals but not gay people or cross dressers, and think about how often transsexuals (especially women) are denied jobs and housing, and kicked out of their families and circles of friends, and think about how ridiculous that notion of anyone changing sex "in order to fit in" is for a second. If you want a life free of ridicule, you'd do well to not be born a transsexual. Alas, you don't get to choose, so you have to do the best you can with the cards you're dealt.

Anyway, I really would like to answer more sincere questions and debate the validity of this medical condition less. There are some vaguely interesting aspects to having both puberties, seeing how women and men are treated differently, surviving an intense depression, becoming happy and comfortable, and discovering a whole bunch of awesome role model worthy people who happen to be in the same minority group as yourself. It's kind of interesting just how much transsexual women have pushed the state of the art of the computer industry, for instance.

[gmanyo]

I don't know much about transgender issues - I'm pretty much "cis scum" at this point - and I would like to know more.

Just came back to this forum for OPN and I think I need to revisit this topic.

 

When I created it I was part of a church that was quite anti-trans and anti-gay, but I was curious. But awhile ago I came out as bi and about a month ago I came out as trans. I now identify as a woman. Maybe this isn’t surprising seeing that I started this thread.

 

Hoping it isn’t a phase but I don’t think it is. I still don’t know shit about trans issues either. Live in a super trans-friendly city so that’s nice.

 

Just thought I’d bring up this turn of events lol.

 

Edit: also thanks ZoeB cause you probably helped with this in some way.

[Salvatorin]

ZoeB was very kind and measured in this thread in response to Lumpy, who funny enough came out as a white nationalist jagoff since then.

[Salvatorin]

ANd also Gmanyo, good to see ya back. It's good that you are in a city that maybe has a supportive community. Having IRL friends to feel comfortable being yourself around is really important with this sort of thing.

[hello spiral]

Hey gman, welcome back!

[user]

At first I felt nostalgic seeing Lumpenprol\s avatar but after reading this thread again all that's left is the sour and salty taste of his personality and the thought "what a fucking dick".

[gmanyo]

Hey gman, welcome back!

Thanks! Also, can we change our username? Mine is a reference to my guy name (Graham) and the fact that I am a man. Which I am not.

[Hugh Mughnus]

pm a mod they will change it for u ;o

[YEK]

there was a transgender guy i worked with last year. he was very open about talking about it, looked like a guy, acted like a guy, was a guy to me.

[manmower]

pm a mod they will change it for u ;o

And in the meantime you can go ahead and select a gender from our many options.

[chenGOD]

 

Hey gman, welcome back!

Thanks! Also, can we change our username? Mine is a reference to my guy name (Graham) and the fact that I am a man. Which I am not.

PM joyrex. He has the power. Not us lowly mods.

[marf]

Be kind and defend

[Guest Ovitus]

Yes they struggle.. especially if they aren't very passable. It's sad because many of them already feel cursed to have been born as the wrong gender. It's not that they have a choice. I know that they may regret their transition because of societal alienation and discrimination. I've seen firsthand some of the nasty ignorant things people will say upfront to them.

It might speak about my sexuality being attracted to trans-girls, for which I will just be honest and say that I am attracted to femininity, first and foremost. There's some confusion obviously, but most transgirls are just seeking normality. I personally was just very curious from a young age and was initially turned on by the general backwardness of the phenomena. Nowadays I see it for what it is. I've had a relationship of four years with a transgirl and I've been with a few others aswell. All of them beautiful, intelligent people.

 

Anyway, I mentioned I had visited the Philippines in another thread. I actually have a lover there that I keep in contact with. I'll share a photo of us, only because I know that she won't mind and is open about being trans.

 

 

[YangYing]

dear lord this is personal stuff.. take care y'all

[dingformung]

Modern gender studies tend to deconstruct gender in a way that there aren't only two but infinite genders which are not in any form related to biological sex. So why is changing your body in a way that it imitates the appearance of a body of the opposite sex helping with feeling more "male" or "female" when "male" and "female" are genders of which in fact infinite exist? It seems that trans* people believe in a binary gender order in which sex goes along with gender identity and gender role and therefore hold onto a heteronormative idea which is the basis for their own discrimination.

[Ragnar]

Yes they struggle.. especially if they aren't very passable. It's sad because many of them already feel cursed to have been born as the wrong gender. It's not that they have a choice. I know that they may regret their transition because of societal alienation and discrimination. I've seen firsthand some of the nasty ignorant things people will say upfront to them.

 

It might speak about my sexuality being attracted to trans-girls, for which I will just be honest and say that I am attracted to femininity, first and foremost. There's some confusion obviously, but most transgirls are just seeking normality. I personally was just very curious from a young age and was initially turned on by the general backwardness of the phenomena. Nowadays I see it for what it is. I've had a relationship of four years with a transgirl and I've been with a few others aswell. All of them beautiful, intelligent people.

 

Anyway, I mentioned I had visited the Philippines in another thread. I actually have a lover there that I keep in contact with. I'll share a photo of us, only because I know that she won't mind and is open about being trans.

 

 

 

 

 

oh God this is going to be controversial, but no I don't think it's weird, I think plenty of guys if they would have a thought like that they're going to be thinking of a trans woman way before a trans man. Like for all the Jordan Peterson type stuff, I kept trolling that thread but I don't think dudes care about the 'equipment' as much as they'd like to believe, it's more masculinity/femininity at play. I mean not that I look at certain genres of stuff, but the demographics of what men are actually into is out there. Is trans man even a 'genre'/category

 

also there's someone at Starbucks who is like, it seems like maybe trans stuff but they probably had facial hair and stuff too? I guess it's some 'queer' thing I'm less informed about? Crap is that the word, not saying it the derogatory way I thought it was something specific for like people who don't want gender stuff to 'matter' so much and like bearded lady imagery and stuff

[Alcofribas]

Modern gender studies tend to deconstruct gender in a way that there aren't only two but infinite genders which are not in any form related to biological sex. So why is changing your body in a way that it imitates the appearance of a body of the opposite sex helping with feeling more "male" or "female" when "male" and "female" are genders of which in fact infinite exist? It seems that trans* people believe in a binary gender order in which sex goes along with gender identity and gender role and therefore hold onto a heteronormative idea which is the basis for their own discrimination.

lol

[dingformung]

According to the Bible, gender is important to God. He created both male and female “in his image” (Genesis 1:27). So aspects of men and women equally reflect part of God’s nature. He is strong yet gentle, He defends and He nurtures, He is independent and social. In short, God is like both a good father and a good mother. 

[gmanyo]

oh boy

[dingformung]

taking da piss man

[ZoeB]

Chim, did you just reply to something I wrote five years ago, then delete that reply?

 

Regarding whether gender dysphoria is recognised by the medical community, yes, it is.  Keep up with the literature.  Talk to a specialist.  It's as uncontroversial amongst doctors and scientists as is the existence of global warming, or the benefits of vaccinations.  It's only laypeople who are still in denial.

 

Regarding dysmorphia, that's a surprisingly common argument from reactionaries considering that dysmorphia and dysphoria are completely different conditions and entirely unrelated to each other.

 

Now let's get back to making music!

[ZoeB]

I just scrolled up and read the kind words, cheers Sadie and Salvatorin!  Glad I helped in some small way, congrats on discovering yourself!