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Also, welcome to the world of being seen as anything other than a cishet white guy and your presentation and actions being scrutinised as if you're constantly making a political statement on behalf of whole groups of people.

 

 

fkn spot on. My brief phases of my presentation being different to the "norm" have given me so much more respect for enby and trans people, as well as cis women who largely are judged on the way they present themselves. I gave up where other people have kept going, and I respect that level of bravery/don't-give-a-fuck-ness even in situations where it isn't a choice.

 

And for the record, I didn't intend for my experience to compare to actual trans people, so sorry if that sounded ignorant.

 

 How does a guy dress? And if a guy dresses unlike a guy dresses is he still a guy and if not why?

 

 

Boringly. Have you seen men's corporate attire lately? It's fkn horribly bland.

 

It's expected that men don't give a fuck about how they dress. Either that, or put effort into looking like you don't give a fuck. Either way, I've found that the expectation is for men to dress boring and utilitarian; anything more than that and they are labeled as gay/trans, or in the early 2000s, "metrosexual" which is a term I fucking hate.

 

Fortunately I didn't get quite as much negative attention as some of my friends have, but I have definitely had strangers tell me/assume I'm gay multiple times in public. 

 

I once had a guy come up to me while I was wearing a fairly muted/dark teal blazer + teal jeans with a black band t-shirt and bright blue shoes and say something like "I hope my kids don't end up dressing like you". wtf man

 

I’m very curious about what roles you are expected to perform as men that you dislike and that you get shit for? Honestly curious not trolling.

I had a vague experience where my gf had painted my toenails in advance of an ultimate tournament (competitive, not a hippy fest) and one of the guys on my team said something along the lines of “Jesus do you even date”. It was really weird that even that small difference triggered him.

 

Anyways so yeah, what expected male performative roles do you guys dislike?

 

Beyond physical presentation, for me it's largely to do with outdated stereotypes, which unfortunately a lot of people still believe in ("what do you mean you don't like sports? you must be some kind of queer" etc). And I would admit as well, that a lot of it is probably in my head, and mostly surfaces when we have to get an electrician or other "tradie" in to fix something in the house lol—I feel like I have to justify my "man-ness" around them. It's silly I know but I feel like society in general is at least partly to blame.

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and then the random hipster dude who randomly saws a log in full lumberjack attire in the middle of a Starbucks after riding a unicycle there or whatever hipster do

 

Canada requires all Canadian men to dress in full lumberjack attire for one day but as a troll, they think trans stuff is fine and sort of making fun of America, for the general backwardness of the act

Edited by Ragnar
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what`s toxic masculinity?

Being a bro to the point of ruining your own self esteem, treating women badly, and violence. Edited by Candiru
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Canada requires all Canadian men to dress in full lumberjack attire for one day but as a troll, they think trans stuff is fine and sort of making fun of America, for the general backwardness of the act

Can verify this.

Source: I’m Canadian.

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Canada requires all Canadian men to dress in full lumberjack attire for one day but as a troll, they think trans stuff is fine and sort of making fun of America, for the general backwardness of the act

Can verify this.

Source: I’m Canadian.

 

 

as a Canadian i felt compelled to post ^this

Edited by yek
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what`s toxic masculinity?

Being a bro to the point of ruining your own self esteem, treating women badly, and violence.
ruining ur self steem, treating others badly, violence.. this is not unique to masculinity no? (maybs splitting hairs but anyways):

 

I think I understand the idea but it feels like a wobbly road to me..

 

like, I know I have all the anger and violence as traits inside me but the response is not to hide from the fact that that's part of who I am.. but to choose not to be violent/agresssive/toxic etc in the face of hardships.. this is ofc my opinion

 

if you can't be violent, being peaceful isn't a virtue (think about it!)

 

so what I'm saying is I think I understand what you mean by toxic masculinity but i dont believe is something that should be removed from society.. or something people should hide from/be ashamed of.

 

Is rather aspects of what makes us human that people should integrate and consciously choose not to engage in (i say people because everyone is capable of doing terrible things!)

 

imho

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what`s toxic masculinity?

Being a bro to the point of ruining your own self esteem, treating women badly, and violence.
ruining ur self steem, treating others badly, violence.. this is not unique to masculinity no? (maybs splitting hairs but anyways):

 

I think I understand the idea but it feels like a wobbly road to me..

 

like, I know I have all the anger and violence as traits inside me but the response is not to hide from the fact that that's part of who I am.. but to choose not to be violent/agresssive/toxic etc in the face of hardships.. this is ofc my opinion

 

if you can't be violent, being peaceful isn't a virtue (think about it!)

 

so what I'm saying is I think I understand what you mean by toxic masculinity but i dont believe is something that should be removed from society.. or something people should hide from/be ashamed of.

 

Is rather aspects of what makes us human that people should integrate and consciously choose not to engage in (i say people because everyone is capable of doing terrible things!)

 

imho

Toxic masculinity is the things that are masculine that are associated with negative things for men and others. Things like being emotionally “tough” and like, not being allowed to cry. Being aggressive toward others to hold a manly position. It’s closely tied with sexual assault. Can someone do these things without toxic masculinity? Of course, but that doesn’t mean toxic masculinity isn’t the driving factor in these things with most men.

 

Try the Wikipedia article, it actually explains things pretty well.

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yes, I repeat my stance

 

edit: there are negative aspects to being human, don't run away from them... understand them, understand how you could manifest them and learn to control them

 

edit2: I guess the difference is where we lay the responsibility, toxic masculinity sounds like a force outside of individual men... which doesn't really help because what can I do about systematic forces beyond my control?

 

I think the individual approach is closer to the mark but as always.. probs a balance between the two

Edited by MIXL2
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there are negative aspects to being human, don't run away from them... understand them, understand how you could manifest them and learn to control them

I can see why you want to embrace parts of being human, but toxic masculinity is not really part of being human; it’s just culture’s shitty obligations for men. Rejecting toxic masculinity is not rejecting what it means to really be human, it’s rejecting the outside forces which cause men to think they need to be tough and exert power over others when in reality that has nothing to do with being a man.

 

I guess the difference is where we lay the responsibility, toxic masculinity sounds like a force outside of individual men... which doesn't really help because what can I do about systematic forces beyond my control?

It is true that this is a systemic issue for sure, but the individual can do a lot by not acting in a toxic way. I have a lot of respect for men who defy the negative traits of masculinity while standing firmly in the man camp. I couldn’t do it, I had to get my ass outta there, but men trying their best to reject toxicity are super admirable. I will say it runs deeper than you think, though.

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aye, good discussion I will need to think further on the shitty obligations/roles men are expected to carry out as you say and how/if that correlates with the dark parts of individual human nature

 

it does seem to me like the ultimate solution would b for everyone to sort their shit out but what do I know (edit: as in not reject it precisely but more akin to "I know I could be a horrible person, yet chose to be as good a person as I can be")

 

hope I didn't derail the thread too much :)

Edited by MIXL2
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Take into account that, as someone in this thread pointed out before, the expectations will shift depending on the culture.

 

For instance, this ridiculous vehicle exists.

 

img_3343.jpg

 

In American culture, many men are sold things based on what they're told is valuable to make other men think they're manly. A fucking truck doesn't make you more of a man. The amount of sexual partners you've had doesn't either. Drinking an entire 30 rack of PBR may be an impressive feat, but it has nothing to do with what kind of a man you are.

It's this kind of bullshit some men feel they need to live up to, and ridicule those that don't take part. For example, I still hear some fancy cocktails referred to as "girl drinks."


Toxic masculinity is when a certain man with those values feels they need to force their values on other people.

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In American culture, many men are sold things based on what they're told is valuable to make other men think they're manly. A fucking truck doesn't make you more of a man. The amount of sexual partners you've had doesn't either. Drinking an entire 30 rack of PBR may be an impressive feat, but it has nothing to do with what kind of a man you are.

 

 

This has always completely fucking baffled me. And you're spot on.

 

This type of thinking has gone on for centuries though.

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In American culture, many men are sold things based on what they're told is valuable to make other men think they're manly. A fucking truck doesn't make you more of a man. The amount of sexual partners you've had doesn't either. Drinking an entire 30 rack of PBR may be an impressive feat, but it has nothing to do with what kind of a man you are.

 

 

This has always completely fucking baffled me. photo-11039.jpg?_r=1523484655

Edited by Zephyr_Nova
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A lot of dudes who are all like "I'm manly, I'm into guns" haven't even gone hunting. Fucking posers. 

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Also, welcome to the world of being seen as anything other than a cishet white guy and your presentation and actions being scrutinised as if you're constantly making a political statement on behalf of whole groups of people.

 

 

fkn spot on. My brief phases of my presentation being different to the "norm" have given me so much more respect for enby and trans people, as well as cis women who largely are judged on the way they present themselves. I gave up where other people have kept going, and I respect that level of bravery/don't-give-a-fuck-ness even in situations where it isn't a choice.

 

And for the record, I didn't intend for my experience to compare to actual trans people, so sorry if that sounded ignorant.

 

 How does a guy dress? And if a guy dresses unlike a guy dresses is he still a guy and if not why?

 

 

Boringly. Have you seen men's corporate attire lately? It's fkn horribly bland.

 

It's expected that men don't give a fuck about how they dress. Either that, or put effort into looking like you don't give a fuck. Either way, I've found that the expectation is for men to dress boring and utilitarian; anything more than that and they are labeled as gay/trans, or in the early 2000s, "metrosexual" which is a term I fucking hate.

 

Fortunately I didn't get quite as much negative attention as some of my friends have, but I have definitely had strangers tell me/assume I'm gay multiple times in public. 

 

I once had a guy come up to me while I was wearing a fairly muted/dark teal blazer + teal jeans with a black band t-shirt and bright blue shoes and say something like "I hope my kids don't end up dressing like you". wtf man

 

I’m very curious about what roles you are expected to perform as men that you dislike and that you get shit for? Honestly curious not trolling.

I had a vague experience where my gf had painted my toenails in advance of an ultimate tournament (competitive, not a hippy fest) and one of the guys on my team said something along the lines of “Jesus do you even date”. It was really weird that even that small difference triggered him.

 

Anyways so yeah, what expected male performative roles do you guys dislike?

 

Beyond physical presentation, for me it's largely to do with outdated stereotypes, which unfortunately a lot of people still believe in ("what do you mean you don't like sports? you must be some kind of queer" etc). And I would admit as well, that a lot of it is probably in my head, and mostly surfaces when we have to get an electrician or other "tradie" in to fix something in the house lol—I feel like I have to justify my "man-ness" around them. It's silly I know but I feel like society in general is at least partly to blame.

 

 

Thanks for the explanation. And for sure society is way more than partly to blame. Orthodox social expectations are hard to overcome!

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Take into account that, as someone in this thread pointed out before, the expectations will shift depending on the culture.

 

For instance, this ridiculous vehicle exists.

 

img_3343.jpg

 

In American culture, many men are sold things based on what they're told is valuable to make other men think they're manly. A fucking truck doesn't make you more of a man. The amount of sexual partners you've had doesn't either. Drinking an entire 30 rack of PBR may be an impressive feat, but it has nothing to do with what kind of a man you are.

 

It's this kind of bullshit some men feel they need to live up to, and ridicule those that don't take part. For example, I still hear some fancy cocktails referred to as "girl drinks."

Toxic masculinity is when a certain man with those values feels they need to force their values on other people.

I understand what you mean when you say "the amount of sexual partners doesn't make you more of a man" however sexual appetite is associated with masculinity.. and is a fine line being drawn between "don't ridicule those who don't take part" (which is fine) and "you should feel ashamed because of your natural traits" (which is not)

 

I think the term is a bit ill-chosen.. the distinction between what's toxic and what's good about masculinity should be made much clearer.. and there should be a much harder push to promote positive traits.. competitiveness, competence, responsibility etc (all in moderation ofc)

 

And especially not dismissal of the negatives: aggression, sexual appetite etc. but rather taming of these traits

(of course these are not uniquely masculine traits.. but that discussion is a different one, and the social constructionist vs natural thing will blow up dis thread so I don't wanna get into it)

 

then again what the hell do I know.. but it feels correct to me

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understanding "le sjw gender concepts" is actually good for everyone, not just women. for every strawman example of 'gender politics gone too far' there's a dozen more examples of where they make a lot of sense. in general in life if your main argument is 'well that's just how things have always been why do you want to change it' then there's a good chance you're wrong.

This omg
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Since then I never really had any feelings of gender dysphoria, but have had phases of wearing light makeup, nail polish etc.. I largely gave that up a while ago though as I kept attracting unwanted attention (even harmless stuff like colleagues noticing my painted nails etc makes me feel uncomfortable). I've come to the conclusion that I'm still fine presenting as a man but just hope someday society as a whole will catch up and be ok with men not absolutely requiring typical masculine traits.

I definitely identify as male but I've had very similar experiences. Basically I think gender roles are trite and cliched and people who subvert them with grace and panache are my heroes, regardless of how they identify individually.

 

Also I really miss painting my nails - I did most of the way through high school. I got pretty good at it and I would do my female friends' (and girlfriends') nails for them. But I can't imagine doing it now, at my age, with my job, in my town, and with my waistline. As you said it attracts unwanted attention because of those lame-ass gender roles.

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