sweepstakes Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Isn't subverting things something cliché masculine? Not submitting to traditional gender roles or anything could be considered manly even in a traditional way. So those who do that in fact do submit to these roles, just in a different way. There is no escape Hey, big truck bro, I'm more manly than you, let me prove it by painting your nails the same shade as mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingformung Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YangYing Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Sadie, on 07 Jun 2018 - 03:26 AM, said: Mesh Gear Fox, on 07 Jun 2018 - 02:25 AM, said: understanding "le sjw gender concepts" is actually good for everyone, not just women. for every strawman example of 'gender politics gone too far' there's a dozen more examples of where they make a lot of sense. in general in life if your main argument is 'well that's just how things have always been why do you want to change it' then there's a good chance you're wrong. This omg the other side of the argument would say "in general in life if your main argument is 'new and revolutionary ideas are great for the sake of being new and revolutionary' then there's a good chance you're wrong" balance man.. too much change and things go to shit, too little and they also go to shit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modey Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 But it's not just for the sake of being new and revolutionary..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YangYing Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 But it's not just for the sake of being new and revolutionary?nor are the opposing arguments just for the sake of "that's how things have always been" look, im not in disagreement just playing devils advocate really. My point is: the downplay of opposite ideas is no good.. you need the dialogue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingformung Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 There is a bit of literature out there discussing the proposed links between autism and 'gender dysphoria' . This thread will be cited soon probably lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingformung Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/the-red-light-district/201411/link-between-autism-and-gender-dysphoria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 what`s toxic masculinity? being alex jones and wanting to bang everyone in your office including un self aware gay grooming behavior Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/the-red-light-district/201411/link-between-autism-and-gender-dysphoria the part of this that weirds me out/confuses me, like if the person was really /badly/ autistic would they not be good at like the nuance of how the opposite sex actually dresses or acts or whatever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YangYing Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 in general i see the 'that's how it's always been' argument used much more than the 'let's do it because it's new' one. they're both bad, but one of them opens a door and the other doesn't, so they're not quite saying the same thing. indeed but both perspectives are nessesary to keep a system functioning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candiru Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 We need a more compassionate society that doesn't grind us all into pulp. Where transgender people are doing fine, everyone is probably doing fine. I don't think it's really about shocking conservative people with sudden changes. It's about them realizing that other people being treated decently doesn't diminish their freedumb in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zephyr_Nova Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Very well put. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YangYing Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 I think I have made my point, guess I'll reprashe it one last time: I don't disagree, but beware of overprotection in the pursuit of compassion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwmbrancity Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/16276342.Transgender_man_attacked_ex_s_new_boyfriend_with_brick_and_broken_bottle/?ref=mr&lp=6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 um regardless of the article I think a trans man would be an interesting relationship. Like if you already don't care about male vs. female and naughty bits, and confident you're attracted to a masculine partner. I keep saying that's way more confusing for a hetero guy to imagine than maybe trans woman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drukqs Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 un self aware gay grooming behavior What is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drukqs Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/the-red-light-district/201411/link-between-autism-and-gender-dysphoriathe part of this that weirds me out/confuses me, like if the person was really /badly/ autistic would they not be good at like the nuance of how the opposite sex actually dresses or acts or whatever?Uhh, yes, probably so. Not to be rude but a lot of transgender people I've met have a horrible and sometimes sexist charicature of the opposite sex in their heads that would totally support that idea for me. I find it interesting that a great percentage of the people I went to school with who were considered the nerds and weirdos are all queer in some way now and almost all the successful normies are now straight, cis or married. Not to go off on a tangent but that is part of what has made me doubt my own sexuality/gender identity situation for the last 13 or so years. I feel like a part of me is just broken and that comes through as some kind of sexual/mental dysfunction. Like straightness is a sign of good mental health. (I know that sounds bigoted, but I have been through the ringer of a lot of sexuality/gender mental problems that i can't tell anymore if I just hate myself and project that out into everyone else or if there really is something to the idea of a mental health/queer connection.) If I had to pintpoint anything that I feel like messed me up, it would be discovering hardcore porn so early and becoming obsessed with it. I must have been 9 or so. I feel like my innocence was ripped away too early and made me develope a really skewed, self-serving and unhealthy relationship with sex. I don't know. I got thinking about this because I've noticed that almost every queer person I've met is somehow extremely emotionally stunted in one way or another, to a really concerning degree. It's hard to tell if their sexuality is causing it or if it's a result of (ever decreasing?) social stigma. It's concerning. Every time I meet a guy that I feel like I could be in a relationship with he turns out to be really immature in some way, super narcissistic in a (scarily) low key way or he's straight and of course I pine over the straight ones really hard. It makes me wonder, am I just as fucked up as these guys that I'm looking down on? I feel like I must be. And that's what scares me. It makes me doubt the legitimacy of any of the sexuality/gender identity dysphoria I've felt over the years. I know this is a big incoherent rant but I've been thinking about this a lot today and this is the only place I feel like I can vent it. Im sorry if it seems like I'm threadjacking I'm just feeling really troubled and broken today, don't know how to remedy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YangYing Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 un self aware gay grooming behavior What is that? we'll never know :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Member Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 Take into account that, as someone in this thread pointed out before, the expectations will shift depending on the culture. For instance, this ridiculous vehicle exists. In American culture, many men are sold things based on what they're told is valuable to make other men think they're manly. A fucking truck doesn't make you more of a man. The amount of sexual partners you've had doesn't either. Drinking an entire 30 rack of PBR may be an impressive feat, but it has nothing to do with what kind of a man you are. It's this kind of bullshit some men feel they need to live up to, and ridicule those that don't take part. For example, I still hear some fancy cocktails referred to as "girl drinks." Toxic masculinity is when a certain man with those values feels they need to force their values on other people. I'm so triggered by that parking, unacceptable! I agree fully. Being a man and not giving two shits about cars or football/other televised sports has been my bane, I was basically socially handicapped in a lot of situations, because it's the only stuff other socially handicapped males have as common talking points. Thankfully the times are changing, and younger people aren't locked into this dumb cycle. Just realized I posted a fwp in the transgender thread. Sorry! Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KovalainenFanBoy Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 un self aware gay grooming behavior What is that? we'll never know :( you would've never known anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chenGOD Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 Who can truly know the mind of the one known as Ragnar? drukqs: do you have access to a psychiatrist/psychologist/therapist? Or a support line or something like that? I hope you call someone who’s job it is to listen and talk about these issues. Not to suggest that WATMM doesn’t care, just that those options are good ones as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingformung Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 Uhh, yes, probably so. Not to be rude but a lot of transgender people I've met have a horrible and sometimes sexist charicature of the opposite sex in their heads that would totally support that idea for me. I find it interesting that a great percentage of the people I went to school with who were considered the nerds and weirdos are all queer in some way now and almost all the successful normies are now straight, cis or married. Maybe they are now queer because they are sensitized for topics like acceptance and otherness after being considered weirdos as kids. Not to go off on a tangent but that is part of what has made me doubt my own sexuality/gender identity situation for the last 13 or so years. I feel like a part of me is just broken and that comes through as some kind of sexual/mental dysfunction. Like straightness is a sign of good mental health. (I know that sounds bigoted, but I have been through the ringer of a lot of sexuality/gender mental problems that i can't tell anymore if I just hate myself and project that out into everyone else or if there really is something to the idea of a mental health/queer connection.) If there is a connection between mental health and being gay or queer or trans then it is that those people suffer from discrimination, I guess. People that are different by nature usually have a harder time in social circles which isn't good for mental health. If I had to pintpoint anything that I feel like messed me up, it would be discovering hardcore porn so early and becoming obsessed with it. I must have been 9 or so. I feel like my innocence was ripped away too early and made me develope a really skewed, self-serving and unhealthy relationship with sex. I don't know. I got thinking about this because I've noticed that almost every queer person I've met is somehow extremely emotionally stunted in one way or another, to a really concerning degree. It's hard to tell if their sexuality is causing it or if it's a result of (ever decreasing?) social stigma. It's concerning. Every time I meet a guy that I feel like I could be in a relationship with he turns out to be really immature in some way, super narcissistic in a (scarily) low key way or he's straight and of course I pine over the straight ones really hard. It makes me wonder, am I just as fucked up as these guys that I'm looking down on? I feel like I must be. And that's what scares me. It makes me doubt the legitimacy of any of the sexuality/gender identity dysphoria I've felt over the years. How does sexuality require legitimacy? It's something very subjective and intimate, means how you feel it is the best indicator of how it is, no other legitimation required. I think most people are fucked up in one way or another so looking down on them because of that would make it really hard not looking down on everyone. Who can truly know the mind of the one known as Ragnar? drukqs: do you have access to a psychiatrist/psychologist/therapist? Or a support line or something like that? I hope you call someone who’s job it is to listen and talk about these issues. Not to suggest that WATMM doesn’t care, just that those options are good ones as well. He is in the United States so he would have to be rich in order to be able to afford a psychologist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candiru Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 Not rich, just a job with a good health plan. Plus it depends on the state you live in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoeB Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 My confusion is along these lines because I don’t actually totally hate everything about being a guy; I look in the mirror, see a dude face, and go “eh, why not”. But then I dressed up like a girl and cried tears of joy for an hour straight. Literally the happiest I have ever been in my entire life. But now that feeling is fading and I can’t tell if maybe I’m just gender fluid or something or if it’s just because it’s becoming harder to convince myself I’m a girl. Also is it normal to feel nervous about changing genders? Sometimes someone calls me she and it feels great, other times it makes me nervous, like I’m losing something. I never feel great about being a guy, and often I hate it, especially in a relationship, but a lot of the time it feels pretty okay. I want to just say I’m trans and be a girl, but it seems this isn’t entirely motivated by a desire to be a girl; maybe to avoid the embarrassment of having said that I was trans and renegging on this. Also I’m terrible at understanding that my feelings change. Whatever I feel right now MUST be how I feel ultimately, according to my brain. This means when I’m feeling okay dressed like a guy for a couple hours I think “HOLY SHIT I MUST NOT BE TRANS IM LYING TO MYSELF” I gather different people have different levels of dysphoria. While I couldn't imagine much worse than being constantly mistaken for a guy, or having any of their dimorphic biological characteristics, I gather some women don't mind it as much. Everyone's different. Doctors used to think that you have to be particularly strongly dysphoric in order to be transgender, but they know better now. I gather that crying tears of joy after finally being able to dress like your peers is something cis people don't do... A trans woman finally being able to present as such will find it cathartic; a cis man presenting as a woman will find it sexy at best or weird at worst, never just comfortable or right. But I have no firsthand experience of being anyone else, of course, this is just my best model of how people work. It's one of the most normal things in the world to fear change. People tend to quite often stick with something bad instead of take a risk for it to get possibly better or possibly worse, and that's before you factor in the societal pressure to fit in. You needn't feel rushed, though. For me, every day spent after the wrong puberty and before the right one was a day my body spent moving in the wrong direction, getting worse. So once I found out how to fix it, I didn't hesitate. But I come from a very bloody minded family. Some people need to move at a slower pace, being more cautious. That's just as valid. And very rarely, some people turn out to be cis after all, and revert back. Whatever you do, you're not obligated to continue doing it if it turns out to be worse for you. And conversely, you can carry on if it turns out to be better. After a few weeks on the other hormones, should you choose to switch them, you should be able to tell if you feel much worse or much better, and either stop taking them or carry on accordingly. But that's more something to consult a doctor about. If you do try them out and end up stopping, no-one will think any less of you, who's someone worth keeping in your life. And you don't even have to tell anyone aside from your doctor. (The same goes for sexuality. People should feel comfortable having had gay sex on the way to working out they're straight, or straight sex on the way to working out they're gay. Not everyone has known exactly who they are for as long as they can remember.) It's also natural for dysphoria to wax and wane. If your range is from neutrality to only one particular direction, though, that might well be a sign. As they say, the most reliable test for whether you're trans consists of a single question: "did you look up a test to see whether you're trans?" Cis people tend not to do that. Be careful of the typical mind fallacy that way. Similarly, I didn't realise I was depressed until I switched hormones and suddenly wasn't depressed anymore. I was then able to see how the fact that previously everyone had been worried that I was suicidal wasn't, in fact, normal. That's the thing about hindsight. I didn't realise how bad things were until they stopped being bad. Then, as my mother pointed out to my doctor, she "got her happy daughter back." The one who held her head high. So there's that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KovalainenFanBoy Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 wonder what Kavinsky thought this thread was about before discovering the concept of transgenderism this very week Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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