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gmanyo

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ZoeB, I feel like this is a slight change in where the goal posts are being set. I was talking about prevalence of either gay men or women in media. And thought you were too. Now you specify it with gay couples kissing. And the argument becomes about the prevalence of women kissing women vs. men kissing men. Which, imo, is a different beast. As I both agree and disagree. I can agree there's more women kissing women in the media. But if you look at prevalence of gay people in general, I still believe it's the complete opposite.

 

And although that may be factually correct and all, I don't consider women kissing women to be a necessarily gay thing, tbh. In dating life I've seen plenty women, who otherwise identified themselves as straight (lets assume they're bi, btw) kissing other women. In public. In regular "straight" sex environments. So yeah, I might be a biased bigot and all that, but women kissing women to me has a different meaning to men kissing men. Such that it doesn't imply a woman is lesbian when she kisses other women. (I'd consider it naive to think so, tbh) And from my conversations with women, this is not specifically a cis-male bias either. Ask a woman what she thinks of women kissing women vs men kissing men. Even if they say they don't mind either, often they prefer looking at women kissing women over men kissing men.

 

Why that is, I don't know. What it means, I don't pretend to know either. But I do believe that it's more complicated than the "male gaze" explanation you seem to offer. Perhaps it's all in my imagination. But at this point, at best, it's my imagination (or anekdotal experience) vs yours. And certainly no viable statistic, to say the least. Also, if it's true that besides the kissing aspect, there's simply more gay men in the media than gay women, how would that cater the male gaze?

 

At which point I can only say: you have every right to have that opinion. Because it is an opinion, as far as I can tell. And I can add that if you are right, I don't think that would be a good thing and I would understand your position. But at this moment, my experience is just different.

 

What is in your favor however, is when you specifically look at porn. Yes, I'm going there! ;) Is there "lesbian" porn being made which is being catered toward pleasuring the "male gaze". Absolutely! I don't have any statistics, but I don't have a problem with the notion there's more women kissing women than men kissing men. Way more. (lets assume thats the case for the argument) But again, if you consider the watching behavior of women watching porn, there's this awkward statistic that women tend to prefer (straight?) lesbian porn. Wait what?

 

https://www.pornhub.com/insights/womens-favorite-searches-worldwide

https://www.bustle.com/p/how-women-are-watching-porn-today-because-were-viewing-it-on-our-phones-more-than-men-43252

 

So besides catering this male gaze, you can also talk about catering the female gaze. Irony? (or proof of male oppression!?)

 

Which comes to a burning question I have. Lets say the male gaze is a negative thing. Would you agree there's also such a thing as the female gaze? And would it be equally bad? Or completely different to the male gaze? In whatever way possible. You decide.

 

And if you would be able to get rid of the male gaze, would you also like to get rid of the female gaze? Or would you consider this "gaze"-thing just some sort of natural phenomena related to sexual desires which is equally shared by all sexes. And it's perhaps more about learning men to put more effort into hiding their male gaze when they are in public. Like one could argue is the case with the female gaze. Or do we live in a world without a female gaze?

 

Lets leave it at this, because this hasn't got anything to do with transgender at all, imo. And in a way it's even beyond prejudices and behavior in a social context of and about transgenders. If you want to discuss though, I'll try to dance. But I can imagine, if you're currently still with me, that you aren't really bothered. Because perhaps this has become more about having different experiences in a context which pretends to be some sort of moral/ethical debate. Which, imo, is oddly not even the case. As I see no moral/ethical differences besides having different experiences and opinions even.

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Why that is, I don't know. What it means, I don't pretend to know either.

 

In a world where people are divided into Default and Other, and straight men are in Default, and women and GBT men are in Other, it becomes pretty clear why straight men have hangups about being perceived as gay or bi, while straight women don't.  See also my previous comments about lesbians being assumed to "grow out of it one day" while gay men are assumed to definitely be gay, although that might also be accounted for by again things catering to a straight-male perspective, which might be egotistical enough to think that deep down he's irresistable to women regardless of our claims to the contrary.  Yikes.  This is all symptomatic of a society with deep issues.

 

You seem to be arguing that women are objectively more attractive than men.  While we may agree that we think so, claiming this to be an objective fact seems a bit of a reach.

 

I'm not familiar with this porn you mention, but I hear it objectifies straight women enough that many such straight women seek out gay male porn just to avoid that, even if they don't fetishise gay men, so other straight women seeking out lesbian porn for similar reasons of wanting to avoid the whole degrading aspect would make sense.  All that would prove is that there isn't enough feminist straight porn catering to the market of straight women customers, though.

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And yeah, I think I'll leave this thread, as it's much more fun to work out [Rhubarb]'s time signature (plain old 4/4, who knew?) than it is to debate whether I'm real for the hundredth time.  What's a quirky thought experiment or abstract philosophical question for some is an attempt to invalidate the existence and lived experience of others.

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Why that is, I don't know. What it means, I don't pretend to know either.

 

In a world where people are divided into Default and Other, and straight men are in Default, and women and GBT men are in Other, it becomes pretty clear why straight men have hangups about being perceived as gay or bi, while straight women don't.  See also my previous comments about lesbians being assumed to "grow out of it one day" while gay men are assumed to definitely be gay, although that might also be accounted for by again things catering to a straight-male perspective, which might be egotistical enough to think that deep down he's irresistable to women regardless of our claims to the contrary.  Yikes.  This is all symptomatic of a society with deep issues.

 

You seem to be arguing that women are objectively more attractive than men.  While we may agree that we think so, claiming this to be an objective fact seems a bit of a reach.

 

I'm not familiar with this porn you mention, but I hear it objectifies straight women enough that many such straight women seek out gay male porn just to avoid that, even if they don't fetishise gay men, so other straight women seeking out lesbian porn for similar reasons of wanting to avoid the whole degrading aspect would make sense.  All that would prove is that there isn't enough feminist straight porn catering to the market of straight women customers, though.

 

 

Looks like you've got all the explanations covered. ;)

 

Before you leave though, there has been plenty of stuff in this thread which taught me a thing or two. Even if I don't agree with all your explanations.

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Darreichs what's your fixation on the brain? There are differences, yes, but there's some suggestion that they are at least partly due to hormones (not seen anything suggesting long term hormone therapy can alter an adult brain tho)...and the similarities between the female and male brains are obviously FAR greater than any slight differences that come up when studying.

I was talking about brain as an example for differences between men and women as an answer to someone saying other than reproductive organs trans women and natural women are the same which isn't exact. Even after hormones and surgeries and what not a man can't be transitioned into a woman and vice versa, biologically spoken. Which must suck if you want to be the opposite biological gender, so my condolences there. As for social gender there aren't only two, are there? At least a lot of sociologists think that. So why even talk about male and female when talking about social gender?
A woman who greets you or I on the street is going to be approached exactly the same. Whether or not she was born a female, born male, or is at some other place: if she chooses to present herself as a woman to me, I'll treat her as one. I'm not likely going to be inspecting her genitals at that moment, so why does her biological history matter in this social interaction? It doesn't is my point. It really doesn't at all unless I'm a scientist studying sexual dimorphism (I'm not), or I'm planning on reproducing with her, at which point I imagine we'll be comfortable enough with one another to discuss the particulars that are relevant. Beyond that, a trans woman or a since-birth woman are 'the same' as far as it matters to me, you, and anyone else really. And even that really isn't much, I'll say ma'am and refer to the person as a her...just semantics really. I guess I might be somewhat surprised if she's a woman who's also a rodeo clown since they're mostly males, last time I checked, but it's not like it would matter? That's just getting to know someone....and that gets into the social gender thing, which is I'm sure complex but I know nothing about. I assume the same ideas carry over as far as I'm concerned, so I really don't care how someone is presenting themselves/identifying/etc.
Yeah, sounds good my man, agree, but in a thread about transgenders it's good to cover all aspects of the matter including genitals
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good friend of mine is 7 months pregnant and yesterday her doctor told her that she's carrying a trans-girl baby. she's in wonder about the name now  :wacko: the doctor offered her some suggestions but she felt very awkward... i dont know what to say to her to all of that.

 

#only_science_can_help_you_think_about_life

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Maybe someone should make an alternative website dedicated to this type of discourse so the ehm... more eager participants can present their assumptions on a regular basis, call it Reddit or some shit.

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just a lil sidequip: it is generally considered a lil bit in bad form to refer to transgender people as "transgenders". Most people say "transgender people". Thank you have a nice day.

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Maybe someone should make an alternative website dedicated to this type of discourse so the ehm... more eager participants can present their assumptions on a regular basis, call it Reddit or some shit.

Nah. Transgender subforum

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  • 3 weeks later...

I like the discussion going on in this thread, but on the other hand tbh I just wanna be a girl. It’s pretty simple. I’m masc as fuck, too; my personality is not girly at all. But fuck it, I wanna look like a chick and be addressed as one. It’s not really that hard.

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