Transgender

[LimpyLoo]

Here is my take.

 

 

"Transgender" folks are generally folks of one gender stuck in the body of the opposite gender. It is nothing at all like a rich person stuck in a poor person's body or any such silliness.

 

If you want to refer to them by the gender of their body then whatever. But just know that --generally speaking--to them that's like someone calling you by the opposite of whatever gender you are (except much much worse).

 

And if you know that's generally how they feel and yet you persist in doing it, then you are clearly not interested in empathizing with them and their situation.

 

If you think it's weird or whatever then simply imagine waking up tomorrow in the body of the opposite gender and then walking around this world having people call you by the gender of your body (not to mention all the harassment and ignorance).

 

 

C'mon WATMM...

[lumpenprol]

though, to be fair, if I suddenly woke up in a woman's body tomorrow, I might feel more comfortable dressing like a man and acting very butch (and slobby), but I probably wouldn't feel the urge to try and re-construct a penis like the guy making Devil's Tower from mashed potatoes in Close Encounters. I'd probably either give up sex entirely, or if I was really brave, try to start living my life as a woman. In other words, I'd adapt. Funny that these people feel they can't.

[Guest RadarJammer]

"Transgender" folks are generally folks of one gender stuck in the body of the opposite gender. It is nothing at all like a rich person stuck in a poor person's body or any such silliness.

I don't think the mind itself really has a gender. there is probably some sort of crossed brain wire or chemical imbalance at play in some cases but I think the idea of being the wrong gender is a thought that infects and plagues them and not any sort of fact. I know what its like to have a thought infect my brain but that's where self control and will power comes handy.

[azatoth]

 

Finnish doesn't have gender specific pronouns and I don't see it being that much of a difference culturally. On the other hand it made it possible to avoid the bickering that happened in Sweden recently when there was a push to introduce a gender neutral pronoun.

 

I meant to ask you about this because it's really interesting. So there's no way for example to say "He went to the shop"? I assume the pronouns translate to something more like "that one went to the shop," "this one went to the shop," "one went to the shop"?

 

It's particularly interesting for me at the moment because I'm learning ancient Greek where gender plays a huge part in determining meaning.

 

So for example the masculine or feminine form of the definite article ("the" in English) alone can refer to a man or woman depending on context: "ὁ ἐν τῃ οἰκιᾳ" meaning literally "the (masculine) in the house" for "the man in the house" or "ἡ ἐν τῃ οἰκιᾳ" for "the woman in the house". And there are plural versions for "men" and "women" too.

 

This is in addition to the actual nouns for man, men, woman, women etc.

 

 

Finnish uses the word "hän" as the pronoun, which is basically denotes both genders. So "he/she goes to the shop" would be how it translates. It also lacks what you explained about Greek.

[OneToThirtySix]

Finnish doesn't have gender specific pronouns

I just learned this about Finnish about a month ago. It was hilarious to hear my quasi-mother-in-law refer to a man as "she" last week.

[lumpenprol]

 

"Transgender" folks are generally folks of one gender stuck in the body of the opposite gender. It is nothing at all like a rich person stuck in a poor person's body or any such silliness.

I don't think the mind itself really has a gender. there is probably some sort of crossed brain wire or chemical imbalance at play in some cases but I think the idea of being the wrong gender is a thought that infects and plagues them and not any sort of fact. I know what its like to have a thought infect my brain but that's where self control and will power comes handy.

 

well put

[Guest A/D]

You know, lumpy and Radar, you could be right. However, I'm suspicious of the fact that you've formed judgments out of a sense of revulsion. Also, the argument that feeling transgender is a mental disease is EXACTLY what the DSM said about homosexuality a few decades ago.

 

I don't feel transgender today. However, when my sexuality was first coming into play, I fantasized about myself as a woman, with other women. To this day, I'm first attracted to women with boyish qualities, like short hair, lean athletic builds, doing traditionally male jobs, etc. I would say I've explored my sexuality pretty well - I made out with a dude in high school and just didn't like it. I've also enjoyed feminine clothing, both to feel feminine and just because I liked it as clothing. So there is a part of me that feels feminine, in some way. I identify as queer because of this even though I easily pass for straight and don't have to deal with any shit for it in my day-to-day.

 

I've definitely grown into appreciating femininity in a partner, and feeling like a man. But the woman-part of me is something I enjoy, too. I would never deny it, at least to myself. It's a bit tough to admit even this minor stuff publicly, even in relative anonymity, because I know it causes people revulsion. I can imagine, for example, if I felt 100% womanly even though I have a dick, and felt it was a deeply shameful secret, I'd develop some psychic shit around it. Maybe even enough that nobody would feel I ever acted natural, because I'd tried so hard to hide aspects of who I was for so long.

 

So obviously I think we should give transgender people the benefit of the doubt, accept them for who they think they are, and try to go about our lives without creating more issues for them than they already have. In that environment we can make progress towards figuring out what's best for everyone individually.

[lumpenprol]

A/D: that's different though. I've made out with men (well, a man) too, back in the day; I more often than not play video games as female characters; I find the idea of potentially being able to inhabit a woman's body using virtual reality pretty hot (liked that scene in Strange Days); etc. Sexual ambiguity is very cool by me (a la David Bowie). Homosexuality is cool by me (as long as the couples seem well adjusted; I admit I can get repulsed by bull dykes). And I'm pretty ok with transvestism (certainly I am on a rational level, though I sometimes get a bit grossed out by the end result; there is just some lizard brain response to seeing a guy with a strong jawline and 5 o'clock shadow wearing lipstick and a wig).

 

I guess what bothers me (besides, sure, some low-level Crying Game style fear of being tricked by a tranny), is self-mutilation, or the insistence on "I'm fucking miserable and will do harm to myself if I can't make the change". Give me a break.

 

Also, as much as these folks insist they aren't homosexual (the ones who self-mutilate), I find it hard to see how their situation isn't covered by the umbrella of homosexuality. For example, a woman who identifies as being male - why couldn't she just dress very butch and use a strap on? Or, a man who identifies as female - why couldn't he just dress up and be a bottom? The only explanation I can think of, is that they want to be with partners who clearly identify as heterosexual, which means on some level they are in it for the *tricking* itself, not the sex identity. Which is, needless to say, unethical.

 

Basically I think most trannies who go to the lengths of doing hormone treatments and chopping their parts off are taking it too far, either from narcissism, or as the result of some self-hatred. Why not just be comfortable in your own skin?

 

By the way, I'm almost equally judgmental of women who get boob jobs and excessive plastic surgery, I think usually it shows deep-rooted insecurity and mental probs (though chopping off your dick is a bit further still).

 

In the end I'm very much pro "you do whatever you want with your own body, mate", but it won't stop me from thinking the people who take it to the extreme are probably messed in the head.

[Hoodie]

here's my question: you all are saying, "oh if i was in this situation, i would do this."

 

how could you possibly know what it would be like? that's like trying to imagine what tripping on acid would be like if you've never done it before. it's impossible.

[lumpenprol]

Another thought: is transvestism considered a sexual orientation, or a kink?

[lumpenprol]

here's my question: you all are saying, "oh if i was in this situation, i would do this."

 

how could you possibly know what it would be like? that's like trying to imagine what tripping on acid would be like if you've never done it before. it's impossible.

hmm, seems to me that's why the dear lord gave us an imagination.

 

Impossible to know for sure, of course, but I think possible to make a reasonable guess. I'll be 40 in a few months. I'd like to think I know myself pretty well by this point.

[lumpenprol]

knowing what acid is like without trying it is impossible because it changes your entire perception of the world. Imagining what it would be like to be the opposite sex is much easier, I think.

"Wow, I have a sudden urge to go shopping"

see?

[Hoodie]

 

here's my question: you all are saying, "oh if i was in this situation, i would do this."

 

how could you possibly know what it would be like? that's like trying to imagine what tripping on acid would be like if you've never done it before. it's impossible.

hmm, seems to me that's why the dear lord gave us an imagination.

 

Impossible to know for sure, of course, but I think possible to make a reasonable guess. I'll be 40 in a few months. I'd like to think I know myself pretty well by this point.

 

 

an imagination is biased. you cannot know the phenomenal experience that another human has. transgendered people follow their own truth, like you follow your own.

[LimpyLoo]

 

"Transgender" folks are generally folks of one gender stuck in the body of the opposite gender. It is nothing at all like a rich person stuck in a poor person's body or any such silliness.

I don't think the mind itself really has a gender. there is probably some sort of crossed brain wire or chemical imbalance at play in some cases but I think the idea of being the wrong gender is a thought that infects and plagues them and not any sort of fact. I know what its like to have a thought infect my brain but that's where self control and will power comes handy.

 

Your take on psychology is very 1950's and that's all I'm gonna say.

[Guest A/D]

A/D: that's different though.

...

 

In the end I'm very much pro "you do whatever you want with your own body, mate", but it won't stop me from thinking the people who take it to the extreme are probably messed in the head.

Thanks for making me feel better about sharing stuff.

 

However I don't think it really is that different! I see it as a continuum, and I'm somewhere along it, and you are too. I don't see how you can draw a line and say, "at THIS point, it's unnatural, and probably a brain malfunction". If it's a gut feeling based on your experiences, I get that, I have a lot of those. But I can't condemn a whole group of people as fucked in the head because they feel less at home in their own skin. I mean, I can remember times when I really wanted to dress up as a woman, and hated manly parts of my body because they ruined the look. It's only been a handful of times but it happened. So I think I'm a tiny part of the way to knowing what it's like to feel that every day.

 

Are some people probably guilty of blaming their psychological problems on something related? Sure! However, the first scholarly paper that Google turned up ( http://www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Regret_after_Sex_Reassignment_Surgery_in_a_Male-to-Female_Transsexual__A_Long-Term_Follow-Up.pdf ) says that regret studies show 10-30% regret after surgery, and goes on to say that a portion of these are from failed surgery. So it's at least statistically believable that people who are willing to undergo the scary and weird process of transitioning feel better afterward. I should add that I'm posting this study because it helps my point and that studies in general make me want to throw up with how stupid they are. Anyway, I'd say the experience of post-op trans people should be the most relevant thing to this thread, as Hoodie said. Not second-guessing someone else's psychology based on gut feelings.

 

edit: I should add, I don't think it's enough to be able to imagine (even really well, somehow!) the experience of being the opposite sex. You're talking about being able to imagine the experience of being someone who feels like they can't live anymore as the sex they were born. That's a rare and intense thing, and I don't think you can learn everything you'd need to have an opinion on it from your imagination.

 

edit like a million: I think a lot of cosmetic plastic surgery is an attempt to look better to others, not appease a deeper sense of identity. I'm sure there are cases where I'm wrong there too. But men/women who keep getting surgery to try and look young when they're 75 - weird to me. It doesn't help that in this day and age it generally looks really bad.

[modey]

The only explanation I can think of, is that they want to be with partners who clearly identify as heterosexual, which means on some level they are in it for the *tricking* itself, not the sex identity. Which is, needless to say, unethical.

If you couldn't tell, and she was post-op, why would it be a problem?

 

Besides, it's not about sexual orientation. It's not like these people are just super gay and take an extra step to become someone of the opposite sex.

[LimpyLoo]

Homosexuality was once considered a disorder and not an integral part of one's identity.

 

 

This issue is very similar in that regard.

[lumpenprol]

yeah, I just watched a couple of transgender interview videos on youtube, alright, I've basically come around to your point of view.

 

still wouldn't have it covered by insurance.

 

modey, I agree, in a hypothetical future world where, for example, a man could change his chromosomes to actually become a woman in every sense (including the ability to have children), then you're right, I agree, it wouldn't make any difference.

 

I'd probably give it a shot myself for a week, just to see how the other half lives.

[LimpyLoo]

yeah, I just watched a couple of transgender interview videos on youtube, alright, I've basically come around to your point of view.

 

still wouldn't have it covered by insurance.

 

modey, I agree, in a hypothetical future world where, for example, a man could change his chromosomes to actually become a woman in every sense (including the ability to have children), then you're right, I agree, it wouldn't make any difference.

 

I'd probably give it a shot myself for a week, just to see how the other half lives.

 

Oh cool, man.

[Guest viscosity]

if people are this psyched out about sex reassignment surgery, makes me wonder how controversial uterus transplants may become in the next few years

[Guest A/D]

yeah, I just watched a couple of transgender interview videos on youtube, alright, I've basically come around to your point of view.

 

...

 

I'd probably give it a shot myself for a week, just to see how the other half lives.

wow, really? thanks for saying so. You're a humble dude. Feel free to post, I haven't seen too much testimony myself, and it might be good for the thread.

 

I would hella give it a shot for a week like damn. But probably only if I could have any body I wanted. That would rule. I would change bodies all the time probably. Hmm, sounds like a very confusing, almost plotless Philip K. Dick novel (spot the redundancies)

 

re: uterus transplants . . sign me up I wanna have lots of kids like 500 of them

[SR4]

all i ask of any mate or lover is that they are open to me about their past.

[marf]

 

"Transgender" folks are generally folks of one gender stuck in the body of the opposite gender. It is nothing at all like a rich person stuck in a poor person's body or any such silliness.

I don't think the mind itself really has a gender. there is probably some sort of crossed brain wire or chemical imbalance at play in some cases but I think the idea of being the wrong gender is a thought that infects and plagues them and not any sort of fact. I know what its like to have a thought infect my brain but that's where self control and will power comes handy.

 

 

has David Reimer already been mentioned?

 

 

http://youtu.be/MUTcwqR4Q4Y

[marf]

just comes down to the pursuit of happiness for me. Whether something repulses you means nothing as an argument. It doesnt affect you in any way. If someone wants to amputate their right leg and have their dick turned into a vagina to make them finally happy then who am i to object? im sure the counseling for these people is available and offered prior to surgery.

[Guest RadarJammer]

 

Homosexuality was once considered a disorder and not an integral part of one's identity.

 

 

This issue is very similar in that regard.

being gay is being who you are while being transgender is being who you aren't, the issues couldn't be more different in that regard

 

You know, lumpy and Radar, you could be right. However, I'm suspicious of the fact that you've formed judgments out of a sense of revulsion. Also, the argument that feeling transgender is a mental disease is EXACTLY what the DSM said about homosexuality a few decades ago.

I think I have lots of unpopular opinions and world views but they all come from a zen place in my heart and something resembling the logic part of my brain