Transgender

[cruising for burgers]

Bit more:

 

2) (and this may just be me), it all seems quite overblown in the sense that you don't hear women in burkas saying "if I don't get to wear lipstick, I'm going to kill myself".

 

Okay, while I really dont want to turn this thread into another shitstorm about Muslims, I really cant see why youve brought this up here. Its an even more ridiculous comparison than the idea that SRS is self-harm. Why assume that any woman in a burka feels worse about her situation than a trans person? When did their experience become the universal yardstick for measuring human oppression? Believe it or not, their lives are not a carousel of unending misery. Some of them even DO wear makeup, I know this is going to be hard to believe, but its true.

 

Even granting the assumption that women in burkas have it worse somehow, does this now mean that any suffering of a lesser degree should just shut up and deal with it?

 

But really, its a pointless line of enquiry, because it casts suffering or whatever you want to call it as a linear scale these people have it bad, but these people have it slightly worse, and these being further along the scale have it worst of all. Which is a boneheaded way of looking at something as various and diverse as human misery.

 

Also, youre casting suicide as a flippant decision taken for very superficial reasons. Its not. Its symptomatic of complicated and manifold influences, illnesses, stresses and provocations.

 

I honestly have trouble grasping and believing this statistic about the rate of suicide or self-harm amongst transgender folks. It's like, is feeling like you're stuck in the wrong body really that horrible? There are plenty of flat-chested women who wish they had big breasts, I doubt they commit suicide over it. I'm fat and wish I had the physique of Arnold Schwarzenegger, but I'm not going to kill myself over it.

There are two objectionable points here, first this flippant view of suicide as an act with one immediate cause (it almost never is) and secondly another ill-informed analogy between you not wanting to be fat and the trans experience. I shouldnt have to point out that being fat, or having small breasts, is far more socially acceptable than being openly trans. For a start, the scale of the aggressions and misunderstandings faced are not even remotely comparable. Second, its not the same thing at all. It goes way beyond having the right body its about being referred to and treated by people appropriately for your gender, and being able to live your life how you like without facing aggression, mistrust and violence for it.

 

Fuck, Ive put on a fair bit of weight in the past couple of years. Id love to have a flat stomach again. But read any account from a trans person of how it actually feels, and youll see its not a remotely accurate comparison, and the difference isnt even a question of degree its something completely different.

 

I'm curious if the rate of suicide is truly higher than among gay men, as it seems the main psychological stressors are at about the same level, ie, getting hate from ignorant folks.

Finally, youre grasping towards what might actually be a decent point. While suicide is always a complicated act with many causes, youre actually right I think that the reason the trans* suicide rate is so high IS in large part due to the hate and ignorance they face from the rest of society. But what youre missing is that actually, in the west today, its FAR more socially acceptable to be a gay man (particularly a white gay man) than it is to be trans. You can see this in the way mainstream gay rights organisations (like Stonewall here in the UK) refuse to campaign on transgender issues any more.

 

Things are by no means perfect for gay men, but theyve come a long way in the past couple of decades. Recognition and respect for trans people is lagging far behind.

 

still waiting for lumpy's reply to that...

[lumpenprol]

I don't have any reply to that, Iain took all the fun out of the conversation with his articulate, well-reasoned post . But he also missed when I said yes, at the present level of technology I do consider breast implants mutilation (he probably remembers one main reason I broke up with my gf is she got a boob job).

 

In any case, I'm not enough of an expert to say what percentage of transgender report satisfaction post-op. If it's high then that's great, self-reporting is all that matters.

 

I do have mixed feelings about people who get seriously transformative plastic surgery. On the one hand, I have a certain sort of "admiration" for people who are too stubborn to just take what god gave them. There is something to be said for drive, ambition, and a hunger for self-realization no matter the obstacles. As I've said already in this thread, in the future we'll probably be able to alter our bodies at will, like silly putty, and that will be an amazing new era in human culture and medicine. On the other hand, I think there's also something to be said for learning how to work with what you were given. How we react and adapt to limitations helps define us (builds character).

 

In its current state the tech is basically butchery that preys on people with low self-image and/or narcissism. See for reference: Heidi "I underwent 10 procedures in one day!" Montag. Her insecurity and attention-seeking led her to completely destroy her body. In her case I would say she was not only somewhat mentally ill, but very misguided; if I was her medical professional I would have tried to counsel her away from surgery.

 

Similarly, with a pre-op transgender person, I would similarly caution "do you really want a mutilated, not-really-functional ersatz 'vagina' that no straight man will ever be fooled by, and probably won't be as sensitive and fun as your god-given cock? Do you really understand what you're getting yourself into?" I gather that transgender folks do have some sort of screening beforehand, but if Chaz Bono can pass then I wonder how thorough it is. In the end, I'm not against letting people do whatever they want with their own bodies. But I do feel sad when I see how miserable some of these folks are afterwards, like Heidi Montag. I suspect, as with these heterosexual women who butcher themselves, the fantasy of the perfect body, and the post-op reality, are quite different. This is coming from a guy who had to massage his gf's scarred, traumatized post-op boobs.

 

As I said, I agree people should be free to do whatever they want. I just have my doubts about the mental health of the ones who want to chop their dicks off (or the women who want to turn their vaginas inside-out).

Apart from the ethics/law approach, it's funny to think about the "beauty" aspect of it. It would suck to be a really masculine tranny. Watmm has a proud history of being hot for ladyboys, and I'll be the first to admit there's something quite erotically confusing about those super-fem Thai ladyboys sporting cocks. My brain does a flip-flop wtfbbq on those. It's pretty cool. But as someone else noted, do you really want to end up somewhere in-between, like Lana Wachowski? (well, she's not that bad, but there are worse...). I don't think I'm that sexist or anti-gay, but I suppose I am guilty as charged when it comes to being a snob about beauty. Why go from being an average guy, to an ugly looking woman? Oh well, only they know...

hmm...not sure why the font size in my post looks screwed up...

[Candiru]

Basically that. ^ All of that.

[eugene]

...he probably remembers one main reason I broke up with my gf is she got a boob job..

wtf man, i remember the pics of that boob job you posted, it was very tastefully done.

[lumpenprol]

that's the thing about boob jobs, they usually look good from a distance. Touching them is another matter.

 

I want to be able to hug the woman I'm with, without feeling two foreign objects in the way. For some guys, it doesn't matter at all. Some even prefer fake tits, I had a friend from Florida who preferred them.

[eugene]

i see. i wonder why it's taking so long to come up with proper technologies for tit enlargements that keep them feel natural, like animal fat injections or something, surely there must be a high demand.

[Nebraska]

question to the company here: if someone tells you they believe they were born in the wrong body and should be male or female, what makes you believe them? is there any specific evidence you look for to determine they are telling you the truth, or do you just take their word for it?

[baph]

question to the company here: if someone tells you they believe they were born in the wrong body and should be male or female, what makes you believe them? is there any specific evidence you look for to determine they are telling you the truth, or do you just take their word for it?

 

Do you think someone would put themselves through all of the bullshit associated with transitioning in a society of narrow-minded dipshits with a high rate of violence toward transgendered people just for shits and giggles?

 

There might be a small minority of people who play at gender just to be transgressive, but, uh, they are generally intentionally easy to spot, open about their intentions, and they typically wouldn't claim to be "born in the wrong body" (nor would, eg, a drag queen make that claim). There are many different types of genderqueer folk, but transsexuals would by definition be marked by their sincerity in feeling born the wrong gender. It's not that hard to gauge a person's sincerity about something so personal and frequently painful-- if there's any insincerity, I would image the path of least societal resistance would point in the other direction: ie transgendered people pretending not to be; closeted, if you will.

[Nebraska]

Do you think someone would put themselves through all of the bullshit associated with transitioning in a society of narrow-minded dipshits with a high rate of violence toward transgendered people just for shits and giggles?

 

 

people do weird stuff all the time. i know there is a percentage of gay men who fantasize about the idea of having sex with a straight man. do you think they could do this? i know a lot of people have depressing lives, and changing who you are could be a way out. do you think they could do this? you asked whether i think people would do this just for shits and giggles. well, some people kill for shits and giggles, you don't think they'd change their gender for it? how about the people who do extreme body modification? why would someone choose to look like this?

 

you said that some play at gender just to be transgressive and are easy to spot because they are "open about their intentions". what do they say?

 

my question was simple: how do you know someone is not lying if they tell you they feel like they were born in the wrong body? do you ask for some kind of proof? in fact, is there transsexualism anywhere else in nature or does this phenomenon only happen in humans?

[Nebraska]

Do you think someone would put themselves through all of the bullshit associated with transitioning in a society of narrow-minded dipshits with a high rate of violence toward transgendered people just for shits and giggles?

 

 

whilst there is (as you said) a lot of bullshit associated with transitioning in a society of narrow-minded dipshits, i think there is also some violence because someone was unaware that the person they were interacting with was originally born a woman or man. and this isn't to condone violence towards transgendered people, but to support my question: would you tell someone you're a man or woman when you're not and open yourself to possible consequences that lie might bring?

[lumpenprol]

tbh I have little to no concern for the tiny handful of folks who might change their sex to be transgressive - they might be weird, but they probably know what they're getting into!

 

I'm curious and concerned about the people who think they'll get a suddenly emotionally fulfilling life out of it, that it will somehow solve their problems. Maybe it does, in the majority of cases, what do I know?

 

I also find it interesting to ponder who finds it easier to get a mate. I mean, we're talking about sexuality here, not just how a person looks, right? The end goal of sexuality being both 1) good sex and 2) increasing the likelihood of finding a compatible and loving partner. I would think, hypothetically, chopping off one's penis makes it harder to achieve both, not easier. In either case (being a tranny with a functional dick, or being a transgender with an inverted pussydick) I'm sure finding a mate isn't easy. But I'd suspect it's easier to find a guy (gay-ish or bi-curious or whatever) who can accept a feminine looking and acting partner that happens to have a dick, than it would be to find a guy who wants to fuck a fake vagina. But what do I know, maybe it's the same percentage.

[Guest A/D]

Yeah, personally I have no idea either. I have only met a couple of Trans people. One of them was Tona Brown, who seemed super happy to be a woman and is open about being Trans in her life as a violinist and mezzo-soprano. Like you said, I'm sure finding a mate is more difficult, if only for the reason that it's hard to find someone who's open about and interested in sexuality.

 

But the overwhelming circumstantial evidence is that there's no other way to be happy for Trans people. I don't think there's any way to ignore all the difficulties of transitioning: physical, social, mental, societal. And yet it's a choice people are proud and happy to have made. One woman described it as "uniting her body and her soul". So in my mind it must be a positive thing for a lot of people. I don't have to fully understand it to support it.

[Guest A/D]

To Nebraska: yeah, I would accept it on faith. What kind of proof could sometime possibly provide that's not anecdotal? "Oh, here's my soul-reader, and .. Yep, my soul is a man! Cool, right?"

[marf]

[Nebraska]

To Nebraska: yeah, I would accept it on faith. What kind of proof could sometime possibly provide that's not anecdotal? "Oh, here's my soul-reader, and .. Yep, my soul is a man! Cool, right?"

 

the reason i was asking is because a lot of people here seemed to be very anti-religious since there is no proof, it's a stupid concept etc. yet if someone said they believed they were born in the wrong body, it's easier to apply faith in that circumstance. i was curious why

 

lumpenprol also touched upon finding a mate. i've actually heard from many transgendered women (mtf) that they get hit upon a lot more after transitioning; so you can imagine the appeal for gay men. here in los angeles, a lot of transsexual women end up prostituting for many reasons: 1). it's easy money 2). they're never short of mates 3). they can set the price and have disposable income for aid their ability to pass (i.e. how much they pass as natural woman as opposed to being clocked as transgender).

 

and for the above reasons- a lot of transsexuals end up not having the surgery and cycling their hormones. this way, they're 1). able to function and 2). able to produce semen. so this really ends up becoming a business. they need money for hormones and disposable income to keep up with the constant demands of living a certain lifestyle whilst keep the clientele who provide the income by providing the necessary pleasure they're constantly seeking. this is also pretty popular in thailand where apparently a lot of the ladyboys go back to being boys once the season is over

 

btw: anyone ever heard of body integrity identity disorder? when i was in college i did a piece of a guy who had his leg amputated because he believed he shouldn't have 2 legs. he told me he never felt comfortable having two legs and in fact found it rather annoying, but after getting it amputated he felt much more comfortable and happy. would you consider this case somewhat similar? is gender reassignment surgery similar to getting a limb amputated?

[baph]

Basically you're conflating prostitutes, who are interested in sexual encounters with "straight men," and all transsexuals. Oh...kay.

 

Transsexuals are not gay men trying to trick you into fucking them because your straight dick is so irresistible or because you'd be a good sugar daddy. Most gay guys probably don't want your dick either. Using thai "ladyboy" prostitutes as your model of the average trans persons psyche is sort of like basing your model of white people on low level impoverished meth dealers.

[ZoeB]

There's no way I'm going to trust this software with a multiquote, so please excuse the bad formatting. I gather this is what kids today call an effortpost, so hold onto your butts!

"Are there any transgender members of this forum willing to say so? What is your experience with prejudice? Is it hard where you live? Is there a transgender community that you are involved in? I've heard from some transgender people that the "=" craze is anti-transgender; is this true?"

Sure, hello. I guess I'm semi-out.

First of all, I can't speak for a whole minority group. These are just my personal opinions. The more you get from many different people, the clearer an image you'll get of everyone's experiences.

It's hard to say with prejudice. I don't think I get it that bad on the scale of things, as I'm white, but it's hard to say exactly. Sometimes it's subtle, sometimes it isn't. It's easier to look at the statistics and see how much less transgender people make on average for any given level of qualification, or how many end up homeless, and so on. Many are harassed even by the police, or not treated by paramedics because they're too busy laughing at them. But personally, I'm fortunate enough to be able to telecommute and pretty much keep to myself, so I don't have it so bad.

I'm not really a part of any community, I'm afraid.

I forget if it's still true, but certainly the Human Rights Campaign (of equals-sign logo fame) have been pretty quick to ignore transgender people in order to focus on gay rights without having an even more marginalised group getting in the way of that. Sometimes, LGBT people can be not too much about the T... or sometimes B or L, either. Such is the kyriarchy and overlaps of oppression. See http://transgriot.blogspot.co.uk/2007/10/why-transgender-community-hates-hrc.html for details about the HRC.

"I don't know much about transgender issues - I'm pretty much "cis scum" at this point - and I would like to know more."

Oh, please don't listen to anyone who says that. Some people who have been abused their whole lives react in an unfortunate but predictable way, as you might imagine. But they're just a tiny vocal minority. There's nothing wrong with being cisgender, just as there's nothing wrong with being straight or male or white. You don't choose to be any of these things. It just helps if you check your privilege and try to be a good ally, which clearly you're doing, so excellent, keep up the good work! ^.^

"...it must be difficult growing up feeling you don't feel right in the skin you were born in."

Indeed. Some people know very early on, whereas some don't work it out until much later. It's a living hell until you can get your body fixed as best you can, and finally get on with your life in a way that (almost) everybody else takes for granted.

"There is so much research to back up how the brain can be another gender or indeed no gender"

Yes. Many relevant white papers are linked to by Zoë Brain (no relation): http://aebrain.blogspot.co.uk/p/transsexual-and-intersex-gender-identity.html There's also a good summary by Sapolsky:

I'd recommend skipping to the 1 hour, 23 minutes, and 52 seconds mark.

"But what's clear is that the level of hostility they face from all sections of society is staggering."

Yes. Read Injustice at Every Turn for some truly depressing statistics: http://www.thetaskforce.org/downloads/reports/reports/ntds_full.pdf

"And not just from the usual suspects - a lot of so-called feminists and mainstream gay rights organisations (like Stonewall) are very hostile to trans people."

Yeah, you know some second wave feminists took a wrong turn when they start siding with ultra conservative people. It's also kind of ironic how bad Stonewall is, considering that the actual Stonewall riots were started largely by transgender women.

"can someone connect me to a good online vid narrated by a transgender person sharing their feelings of being stuck in a wrongly-sexed body?"

How about Lana Wachowski's HRC (yes, that one, see above) visibility award acceptance speech? It's very moving:

[Ack, I see someone linked it already. Nevermind!] YouTube in general is a great place to learn about these kinds of things from hundreds of people's personal vlogs. (Personally I love candiFLA's videos, but I wouldn't say she's representative as such...)

"i dont get why pppl cant just be cool w others"

Usually religion, second wave feminism, and/or a personal traumatic experience. If someone does something bad, it's easy to look for something about them that's different to most people and assume there's a correlation when there isn't.

"the boards you have to go up for in order to get that surgery are stuck in 1969"

Hehe... But yeah, last I heard the "Jurassic" Clarke Institute really was stuck in another era. It's like that all over the world, though. For a thoroughly British example, check out #TransDocFail: http://www.complicity.co.uk/blog/2013/01/transdocfail-lowlight/

"I haven't heard that the Human Rights Campaign was anti-transgender, though. I can understand the desire to avoid the topic, since transgender issues are deeply personal and emotional, and using it for political gain seems gauche."

It's more that it's easier to campaign for the rights of people with impeccable hair and straight, white teeth than those who actually need them. Getting LGB rights is easier than getting LGBT rights.

"...the T has become more prevalent lately. Most likely because of the internet."

Yes! The Internet gives everybody a voice. Before I had Internet access in the mid nineties, I thought transsexuals were prostitutes on Jerry Springer, and obviously didn't think I was one. It was only once I was on the Internet that I realised they're a diverse group of people (just like every other group of people is diverse), and all they have in common is that they all felt their body was the wrong sex for their brain, just as I did. Then I met a bunch of kick-ass Linux programmer geek girls and finally found some people I had a lot in common with.

To give you an idea of just how bad the media are, shortly after transitioning, I gave a few interviews on TV and in some newspapers, and they airbrushed out my nosering and claimed I was straight (in the first person, no less), to make my story "easier to understand." There's a roughly even split of sexualities amongst transgender people, yet it was feared at the time that no one would be able to understand our plight if we could speak for ourselves. Admittedly, given how many people at the time had trouble understanding the concept of a gay transsexual due to a mistaken belief that transsexuals are just "really really gay" [update: it seems lumpenprol still believes this. Further update: maybe not anymore, yay!] or "gay and in denial", it did confuse people... but pandering to that confusion instead of educating people seemed like an odd choice for people whose job was ostensibly to tell people what was really happening in the world.

To clarify the distinction between sex, gender identity (neurological sex) and sexuality, I'd recommend checking out the genderbread person: http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Genderbread-2.1.jpg

"I must have had some subconscious idea that only ugly and insecure people became transgenders"

It's amazing how many men I've talked to who think that lesbians are only lesbians because we're "too ugly to get a man". Presumably if these men worked on their presentation a bit, they wouldn't need to be straight and could get one of their own...

There's a very much overlooked concept called the typical mind fallacy. People sometimes find it hard to grasp that other people have different motivations, needs and preferences. Read http://lesswrong.com/lw/dr/generalizing_from_one_example/ to get a good feel for this. On top of that, there seems to be a big underlying feeling in many people that transsexualism isn't real. If you assume that transsexual people are deluded, you will not understand them, because their actions don't fit that model, because the model is wrong. If you assume transsexuals are correct in their assertion that their neurological sex and physical sex are mismatched, then everything we do makes perfect sense. Why wouldn't a woman want to feel the full range of emotions that oestrogen allows her to? Why wouldn't she rather have a vagina than a penis? If you try to dream up reasons for a man to want to take oestrogen and have a vagina, on the other hand, you'll come up with some very strange ideas indeed, just like psychiatrists used to, and all too often still do. (This is one reason why we should move from a paternalistic model to one of informed consent.)

Anyway, gay people are gay because they're genuinely attracted to people of the same gender identity, hormonal sex etc. Transgender people are transgender because their neurological sex and physical sex genuinely don't match. Whether you're trying to gain patriarchal power, invade women's spaces, spy on people, or have gay relationships without being ostracised doesn't come into it. Those would be pretty bad reasons to transition, especially the latter as you get ostracised more.

"if i come across a transgender person my only main concern is that i let on that i know. I wish them nothing but the best!"

Thanks! I wouldn't worry about it. I gather it's polite not to mention it, but don't let it consume all your thoughts either. Just carry on having a nice conversation with a fellow human being.

On making a big deal or not... as with politics in general, it helps to have some people who are actively pushing for better laws, better representation in the media (so that, for instance, children have role models they can identify with, to aspire to), and so on, and it also helps to have many people who are just being their awesome selves, making the soundtrack to A Clockwork Orange, co-writing and co-directing The Matrix, or causing major paradigm shifts in computing.

Regarding criminals: yes, every minority group will have some criminals in it, by virtue of being diverse. Either criminals should have rights regardless of which minority groups they're in, or they shouldn't. Whether murderers should be picked off Dexter style or not is beyond the scope of this thread, but as long as we're letting them live, we should give them access to medicine and surgery they need. Medicine and surgery that helps fix the discrepancy between your brain and body certainly falls under this category, and if anything, getting it helps you to be a fine, upstanding member of society as, for example, you won't have to be a woman dealing with male levels of testosterone trying to make you aggressive in a way that your brain isn't built to handle.

I'd hope this goes without saying, but SRS is not "mutilation" any more than any kind of reconstructive surgery is. Whether the person having it is a criminal or not has no bearing on this.

"...if I were forced to dress in women's clothing for the rest of my life and be referred to as "she" it would be awkward and strange but I'd learn how to get over it."

Bear in mind that you wouldn't just have to dress as a woman, you'd have to take oestrogen. You're a man, and the fair comparison is of you to a pre-transition transsexual man. Remember, transsexual men who haven't yet taken T have to deal with periods, having breasts, and their thinking being clouded by the hazy fog of oestrogen. If you want to know what that's like, ask some men who took anti-androgens in order to suppress their baldness: http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=24

So, for me to believe that you'd really "learn how to get over it," you'd have to procure anti-androgens and oestrogen and prove it. (DO NOT DO THIS.) Bear in mind, however, that the aforementioned Injustice at Every Turn cites a 41% suicide attempt rate amongst the people who survived to take the survey. Also bear in mind what happened to David Reimer [update: marf already mentioned him, thanks!] when a doctor tried to non-consensually change his sex, also ending in suicide. But good luck with that.

"It's not psychologically devastating to happen to have a penis."

I've known women to break down in tears when attempting to have sex due to this. There's also the deep voice, facial and body hair, lack of cute curves, lack of breasts, lack of vagina and labia, and most importantly the lack of an ability to think straight when you're on the wrong hormones for your brain...

"I wonder how many trangenders actually breathe a sigh of relief afterwards and say "ah, finally it is complete"...or are they still dissatisfied? I suspect in many cases the latter."

I've talked to a lot of transgender people, and the only regret I consistently hear (and share myself) is waiting so long before transitioning, often due to not realising it's an option.

"I know we're supposed to believe it's not a disease, but more of an "orientation". However I'm willing to bet at least in some cases it's like body dismorphic disorder or anorexia, where you keep seeing a problem that's just not there. Like Amanda Bynes obsessing about the "webbing" on her nose between her eyes."

The thing is, with anorexia, no matter how little you eat, you still think it's too much. You can't ever feel right. With transsexualism, once you change sex, you feel what I can only assume to be normal, and you can get on with your life. The hell ends. You escape.

That and, you know, all the evidence showing that transsexual women are neurologically female and transsexual men are neurologically male.

"...transgendered people are desperate to go to Mars."

This may be explained by the rather hostile culture back on Earth. See above.

"So an old work colleague of mine had a sex-change last year. Kind of took my by surprise, because he was a more of a gamer and D&D nerd with a full grown beard. That´s not really the type I suspected to do something like this."

Heh, just wait until you hear about the former NAVY Seal, Kristin Beck. [update: marf already mentioned her too, excellent!]

It certainly isn't surprising to hear of a transgender woman who, before transitioning, participated in the least macho, least aggressive hobbies socially acceptable for men to engage in, with a disregard for maintaining the body that was so ill-fitting. At the other end, it's not surprising to hear of transgender women in denial engaging in hypermasculine activity in a futile attempt to take everyone else's advice and "man up". There's a shocking proportion of us in the military. [update: SPD^2 articulates this well.]

Bans on same-sex marriage are really supposed to be on same-gender-identity marriage, but it's not uncommon to hear of transgender people being in a legal grey area where they can't marry anyone, or being denied the inheritance when their spouse dies.

"It's just hard for me to imagine being happier after this [Pictures of Lana Wachowski]"

See previously linked acceptance speech. No, seriously, go ahead and watch it. I'd say she looks a lot happier now, with her cute smile. Listen to what she says, and read her body language.

"what troubles me and seems ironic about transgender people is when they try and transform so they can feel at home in their body yet they always seem to be modulating their voice and body language in a way that makes them look tense and like they aren't truly being themselves at all"

The thing is, the effects of testosterone are permanent. Transsexual men can just take T and have their voice drop and carry on speaking like normal. Transsexual women have to compensate for the damage done by the T. It's a workaround.

I'm generally nervous around people I don't know, in crowds, out of the house generally, and especially in gender segregated places. This is why I seldom use public toilets or changing rooms. This is why I haven't been swimming since transitioning. But it's not because I'm finally comfortable in my body (which I am). It's because I'm worried about what other people who haven't necessarily been educated on the issue, who may well be bigoted, will think or do. For example, there's the poor trans woman who was assaulted by two other women in a fast food chain in Maryland. (I'm not linking to this, as I can't bring myself to watch it.) My body language presumably reflects this.

It's hard to be objective about your own body language, so I'll tell you what my mother once told me: I used to hang my head when I walked, as if in shame. Apparently I don't do that anymore.

"I don't think the mind itself really has a gender."

OK, so it breaks down like this: there's no one thing a female brain should look like or one thing that a male brain should look like, just as there's no one height for female bodies or one height for male bodies. But there are averages. And once you tally up the aggregate data, you can see women correlating in one direction and men in another. Transgender and cisgender women correlate together, and transgender and cisgender men correlate together, in the various things we can measure about the brain that are sexually dimorphic.

That, plus the whole thing about being able to think clearly when you're on the right hormones for your brain, and not when you're not.

"Imagining what it would be like to be the opposite sex is much easier, I think."

If you can't imagine why a woman would dislike having a penis, I think you haven't quite made that empathic leap just yet...

"being gay is being who you are while being transgender is being who you aren't, the issues couldn't be more different in that regard"

No, both are being who you are. Being true to your brain, not your body. Being honest about which gender you're attracted to in one instance, and about which gender you are in the other.

"...when was [being gay] officially announced to be not a disorder by the scientific community?"

See the aforementioned Sapolsky video, 1:24:30 in, where he briefly mentions this, although not the date.

"gender identity disorder is regarded as a disorder because it does create suffering in the people who feel that they are stuck in the wrong body. they have extremely high rates of suicide. their quality of life improves immensely after hormone therapy and surgical procedures. at that point, we can say that they're no longer suffering from a disorder. so yeah, i think it should stay in the DSM."

This is an awkward one. It's not really a mental disorder as the brain's functioning correctly. It's not really a physical disorder as the rest of the body's functioning correctly too. What it is is a healthy brain in a healthy body that's mismatched for it. Most likely due to prenatal hormone levels, a brain is made that's neurologically the sex it's not supposed to be. Looking at it as a mental disorder that belongs in the DSM is problematic as the "cure" is bringing the body in line with the brain, which relieves all the dysphoria you get from your body being wrong for you. This makes it the only thing in the DSM whose cure treats the body, not the brain. It really doesn't belong in the DSM, but the problem with removing it is that it's not widely accepted in all countries yet as a physical issue either, meaning it would make it even harder for people who can't afford their own treatment to get it via insurance, be it nationalised or otherwise. At least, that's how I understand it. I could be wrong. I went private. (See aforementioned #TransDocFail for typical reasons why.)

To put it another way, if you're a woman and you develop excessive body hair, that's going to be bad for your self esteem. But that doesn't make it a mental disorder.

"i also think it's important to point out that most people who identify as transgender do not get sexual reassignment surgery. Hormone therapy is very commonplace and breast implants for m 2 f transitions are as well, but actual genital reassignment is more rare."

Heh, I've heard this, but the only woman I've met who has breast implants is cissexual. SRS is certainly lower amongst men, incidentally, for the simple reason that the surgery available to them isn't so good. But they generally pass for cissexual, so I guess it's swings and roundabouts.

"I think the main problem some of us are having is that 1) hormone therapy and surgically messing with your genitals seems like self-harm, and self-harm by definition is not psychologically healthy, and 2) (and this may just be me), it all seems quite overblown in the sense that you don't hear women in burkas saying "if I don't get to wear lipstick, I'm going to kill myself". I honestly have trouble grasping and believing this statistic about the rate of suicide or self-harm amongst transgender folks. It's like, is feeling like you're stuck in the wrong body really that horrible? There are plenty of flat-chested women who wish they had big breasts, I doubt they commit suicide over it. I'm fat and wish I had the physique of Arnold Schwarzenegger, but I'm not going to kill myself over it. I'm curious if the rate of suicide is truly higher than among gay men, as it seems the main psychological stressors are at about the same level, ie, getting hate from ignorant folks."

It may seem to you like it's self harm, but it isn't. It's necessary surgery. I know it's difficult for you to grasp what it's like for your body to be the wrong sex for your brain, so please allow me an analogy:

Say everyone wears tailor made clothes. Everything fits everyone perfectly. But for whatever reason, you have to wear clothes that are a size too small for you. Everything pinches. It feels horrible. It's constantly nagging at you. You try explaining to people how your clothes don't fit, but as the people you're speaking to haven't experienced this problem themselves, they can't picture it. Some of them even go as far as to say that there's no such thing as clothes, or that they could wear clothes of any size and it wouldn't feel uncomfortable at all, or they'd just get used to it. It's a bit like that, only you can't take the clothes off, and on top of that (and this isn't the main point, but it certainly doesn't help) people tend to judge you and expect you to fulfil certain roles based on what size clothes you're wearing. I guess that's the point at which the analogy falls apart, really.

"It's much easier to understand why a person who was born hermaphroditic and whose parents were forced to make a decision on their sex would have these problems. A relatively clear cut biological cause and there's practically no questions asked. How much of gender confusion is hormonal/psychological/both?"

This brings up another important issue: just why do so many doctors feel the need to mutilate intersex babies' genitalia? They often end up essentially making more people transsex, which is just horrid. It's bad enough when it happens in nature without people forcing it upon others (see Reimer above).

To broaden the scope out a bit, people really should be more about consent IMO.

What about transsexuals who have some kind of physical sexual abnormality, but don't qualify as intersex? Would they be more legitimate in your eyes than those of us who don't? I for one was quite surprised to read Wendy Carlos' interview in which she talks about her intersex sibling, and how her voice never reached a man's pitch.

As far as I know, the latest scientific research shows that transsexualism is caused by prenatal hormone levels. Your brain's sex is determined a few months apart from the rest of your body's sex. Nothing you can do from that point on will influence it.

"In any case, I'm not enough of an expert to say what percentage of transgender report satisfaction post-op. If it's high then that's great, self-reporting is all that matters."

Again, I'd recommend Zoë Brain's blog. Try a search for "satisfaction": http://aebrain.blogspot.co.uk/search?q=satisfaction

"On the other hand, I think there's also something to be said for learning how to work with what you were given. How we react and adapt to limitations helps define us (builds character)."

You've never met me, and you certainly didn't meet me before I transitioned, so you'll just have to take my word for this: I was an empty shell of a person. It was only after transitioning that I became happy, grew confident, managed to love myself, fell in love with someone else, felt I deserved and could attain a career or two, and generally started to become a nice person that people might want to befriend. As my mother once told the psychiatrist who first gave me hormones, she'd finally got her happy, carefree daughter back, after all those years of intense depression.

Let me put it this way: I've sat in a room with several hundred people watching a film with my music in the soundtrack. I have a day job I love as well. My partner is the most wonderful, lovely, nice, smart, and cute woman I've met, and I hope we enjoy countless years together, as good as the first dozen have been. I've been on TV and in magazines. I traveled half way around the world to meet a totally awesome person who built his own giant robot. I love my life now. But the single most important thing I ever did was still being honest with myself, and with others, and taking those first pills, and changing my name. Nothing else I've done matters in comparison, and it wouldn't have been possible either.

"Similarly, with a pre-op transgender person, I would similarly caution "do you really want a mutilated, not-really-functional ersatz 'vagina' that no straight man will ever be fooled by, and probably won't be as sensitive and fun as your god-given cock? Do you really understand what you're getting yourself into?" I gather that transgender folks do have some sort of screening beforehand, but if Chaz Bono can pass then I wonder how thorough it is."

Just what exactly do you think happens at the moment? If anything, it's far too difficult to transition, not too easy. And just what have you got against Chaz Bono that makes you think he shouldn't be allowed to fix his body? I saw a clip once of a news anchor covering a serious story about trans rights asking him "what it was like to have a beard", and Mr. Bono quite rightly ripped him a new one. He seems pretty with it to me.

Also, not all women care what men think about our genitalia, as not all of us are straight. :P But even those of us who are manage to find guys not put off by it. Maybe some of you actually care about personalities rather than just seeing a partner as someone to have sex with, huh? As for how fun having the right vs. wrong genitalia is, see my previous comment way back about breaking down in tears and imagine how nice it is to be able to have sex without doing that for the first time. It's not that bad for everyone, but it is for some people. Yes, we're aware of the risks. Not everybody wants your body because not everybody is you.

"...I'm not against letting people do whatever they want with their own bodies."

Good! ^.^

"I just have my doubts about the mental health of the ones who want to chop their dicks off (or the women who want to turn their vaginas inside-out)."

That's the thing, the men who want penises aren't women. Until you understand this, you won't understand their motivation.

"...tranny..."

Please don't use epithets. The T-word is roughly analogous to the N-word. Just don't use it.

"...ladyboys..."

Ditto. This is a term invented by the sex industry. No one uses it to describe themselves outside of that context.

"do you really want to end up somewhere in-between, like Lana Wachowski?"

If I end up half the woman she is, I'll be pretty content with my life.

"...I suppose I am guilty as charged when it comes to being a snob about beauty."

Thankfully not everyone views others in such a shallow manner. I'd be happy to call anyone who co-wrote a film like Bound, let alone The Matrix, a friend of mine, even if they looked like Andy. (I kid! I kid! It's sweet how he sticks up for his sister. But she's definitely the cuter of the two.)

"Why go from being an average guy, to an ugly looking woman?"

Because you're not. You're going from being a woman who looks like a guy, to a woman who looks (at least more) like a woman. The latter is much less disagreeable, I assure you.

Incidentally, if you want to consider yourself a transhumanist, you really need to get over your hangups about elective surgery and people being less than beautiful on the outside. If you're that paranoid about dating a transgender person, you're really not going to like it once cisgender people start changing sex for a week just to see what it's like, and finally realise what transgender people have been complaining about... :)

"question to the company here: if someone tells you they believe they were born in the wrong body and should be male or female, what makes you believe them? is there any specific evidence you look for to determine they are telling you the truth, or do you just take their word for it?"

As the neurological sexual dimorphism only shows up in aggregate, you just have to take their word for it. If they switch hormones, and become less depressed instead of moreso, it's a pretty safe bet though. :)

On cissexuals changing sex: I gather this usually only happens due to being sexually abused at a young age, and even then, this is much rarer than actual transsexualism. At any rate, they regret it and change back. Transsexuals usually don't.

"my question was simple: how do you know someone is not lying if they tell you they feel like they were born in the wrong body? do you ask for some kind of proof? in fact, is there transsexualism anywhere else in nature or does this phenomenon only happen in humans?"

Make them take hormones for three months, measure their tears, if you want to be objective about it. ;) As to whether it happens in nature, I can only assume so, although it's difficult to spot the difference between straight transsexual animals and gay cissexual animals. You might be able to ask some chimpanzees with sign language, but that's a long shot. To be honest, you'd be lucky to get out of them just who ate the plant. You might be able to tell by slicing up many animals' brains postmortem. A scientist could probably answer this much better than I.

"I'm curious and concerned about the people who think they'll get a suddenly emotionally fulfilling life out of it, that it will somehow solve their problems. Maybe it does, in the majority of cases, what do I know?"

It does solve their problems, but only because their problems were their body was the wrong sex.

"the reason i was asking is because a lot of people here seemed to be very anti-religious since there is no proof, it's a stupid concept etc. yet if someone said they believed they were born in the wrong body, it's easier to apply faith in that circumstance. i was curious why"

Aah. Well the science is looking pretty much on the side of transgender people on this one so far. Religion can't exactly claim the same. But it's kind of a moot point as if you were a cissexual, and you changed sex, you'd feel just as bad as a transsexual who didn't change sex. So it's not really something you could pretend to be, not that anyone would want to due to the stigma.

"i've actually heard from many transgendered women (mtf) that they get hit upon a lot more after transitioning; so you can imagine the appeal for gay men."

I've been friends with a fair few gay men. None of them would have found the idea of growing breasts, developing curves, or having their thinking clouded by hormones that their brain can't function properly on appealing. Gay men don't ever want to be women. They're glad they're gay men.

"here in los angeles, a lot of transsexual women end up prostituting for many reasons: 1). it's easy money 2). they're never short of mates 3). they can set the price and have disposable income for aid their ability to pass (i.e. how much they pass as natural woman as opposed to being clocked as transgender)."

You forgot job discrimination... You also overlooked all the transsexual women who you didn't notice because 1. they pass for cissexual and 2. they're not prostitutes, so you didn't suspect it of them. But it's nice to know you've been talking to some of the transsexual women of LA in order to discover their reasons for engaging in their particular line of work, rather than just making assumptions. (See the afforementioned report Injustice at Every Turn. It's not all tittyskittles and rainbows.)

"anyone ever heard of body integrity identity disorder? when i was in college i did a piece of a guy who had his leg amputated because he believed he shouldn't have 2 legs. he told me he never felt comfortable having two legs and in fact found it rather annoying, but after getting it amputated he felt much more comfortable and happy. would you consider this case somewhat similar? is gender reassignment surgery similar to getting a limb amputated?"

Yes, I for one would consider this similar. (Remember, this is just my personal interpretation of things.) Healthy brain, healthy body, mismatched. Bring the body in line with the brain, the person's happy. So what's the problem?

TL;DR: marf and SPD^2 (and Iain C, for that matter; possibly others too, I've kind of lost track by this point) really know what they're talking about. Listen to them.

[modey]

awesome post zoe!

[LimpyLoo]

Yeah great post, Zoe!

[Guest A/D]

Thanks Zoe

[doublename]

awesome post zoe!

 

Yeah great post, Zoe!

 

Really great stuff, Zoe.

[lumpenprol]

Thanks Zoe. I made it about halfway through, when I got to this:

"the lack of an ability to think straight when you're on the wrong hormones for your brain..."

 

I'm sorry but I don't buy this at all. Is it possible that transgender brains have different neurochemical processes, or structural differences? Sure, the same has been said about the gay brain (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14146-gay-brains-structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex.html#.Uennto1miSo). But you're making it sound (or asking us to believe) that it's more like an autoimmune response, where the transgender brain is physiologically at war with the "host body." I'd like to see some evidence of that, it's truly hard to believe that transgender-ism should be classified as some kind of autoimmune disorder.

 

If you were speaking metaphorically then I guess you got carried away.

 

I appreciate you writing that up, and being willing to share it. I still have my personal reservations about transgenderism (I do suspect, in many cases it is like a kind of body dismorphism due to childhood sex-abuse or trauma...or even just a very active fantasy life!), but otoh I'm a huge supporter of personal freedoms and "letting your freak flag fly" as long as it doesn't harm others. On the sliding scale of freakiness, I find transgenderism a lot more understandable than, say....Bronies. Or the Japanese guys that get married to anime pillows. Or coprophilia, or any number of things...

 

In trying to tease apart why I have no real problem with homosexuality (well ok, I admit I can find effeminate gays a bit clownish and hard to take seriously...but I have "gay friends" so I guess that means something) but find transgenderism weird, I think it comes down to transgenderism seeming to be fundamentally dishonest, in some way. It challenges one of my closely held beliefs, which is not that men should be men and women should be women, but that at base, most healthy well-balanced humans can swing either way and be rather sexually ambiguous/bisexual/what-have-you. I myself have experimented sexually, I've even sucked a dick (which, rather boringly, confirmed my heterosexuality)...which is why I find it quite strange to come across someone who says "if I don't get a penis I'm going to kill myself!" This seems too extreme, too shrill, and frankly (ironically?) too obsessed with appearances for a movement that claims to be all about "how I feel inside".

 

I also don't quite understand the link between transgenderism and...fucking (which is, obviously, the end goal of what I would call "1st tier sexuality", being sexual behavior with the goal of direct stimulation to physical climax). It seems to belong with what I would call "2nd tier sexual behaviors" (sorry, I'm no scholar), like BDSM - behaviors that have primarily a mental component (I like being kicked in the nuts with stiletto heels!) but a very unclear relationship to direct sexuality/orgasm. Not that this is a problem, but it makes it still harder for me to understand the urgency of it all, I don't think you'd hear someone into S&M say "I'm going to kill myself if I don't get to whip someone" etc. Sexual urgency seems to normally come from the direct sexual response - ie., I need to get my rocks off or I'm going to harm someone! - which is why guys in prison can go crazy with lust. I guess I'm a pretty staunch Freudian at least to the extent that I think sexuality informs a ridiculous amount of what us human beings do on a day to day basis. So I can understand a guy saying "wow I really want to fuck that guy", I can understand a woman thinking "wow, I really want vampire Lestat to seduce me and penetrate me with his fangs", but I find it harder to understand "wow, I really don't know who I want to fuck but it has to be with a penis or I'm going to kill myself!"

 

But it really does seem from what you wrote that transgenderism is most akin to an autoimmune disorder, which I find really fascinating. Hard to believe, but fascinating...like your "feminine brain" is being held hostage by your body's testosterone...

[lumpenprol]

Actually I don't know what I was thinking in saying it's necessarily related to sexuality at all. Sexuality is other-focused (I want that cock), but transgender is self-focused (I want to have that cock).

 

It's just weird to have such intensity and fervor about an outcome which seems to have no goal. I'm really curious, in some or most trangenders is the thought process (for one born male) "Wow I really wish I could fuck a guy as hot as George Clooney or Brad Pitt but they are hetero therefore I'd need a nice hot pussy"? It seems the answer to that is no, in most cases I've read/heard, the thought process is "I want a pussy" full stop. In that case though, what makes it different from me saying "I'd love a full head of hair" or I want "washboard abs"? Again, if that is the case, and sex is not the goal, I can't understand or explain the intensity ("A dick, or death!") without assuming there is more behind it - a problematic childhood, narcissism, or what have you.

 

All the talk of a "female brain being trapped in a male body" just seems so...overdramatic. I mean, I'm guessing there are many guys on this board who would admit to being pegged by their girlfriends. In that case, the guy is acting like the receptive partner, he is for all intents and purposes female (apart from the facial hair and BO, lol). Ok, so he could take it one step further and cross-dress, if he was so inclined. But I really don't see the burning need for him to kill himself if he couldn't magically transform his anus into a vagina.

 

So yeah, I guess I keep coming full circle in my thought process. Is it possible for there to be folks who really feel like they were born in the wrong bodies? Sure, I bet short men and ugly women feel that way most of the time. Is it worth getting all crazy about? Only if you're really self-involved, have too much time/money on your hands, or are a bit of a head case.

 

Can I also say that transgenderism in its vanilla form seems pretty boring? So you want to look and be perceived as a fairly ordinary male or female, how fascinating. How about "I want to be a polyamorous reptilian", dream big...

[LimpyLoo]

Lump, I find it strange how there seems to be a condescending tone to your posts on this matter. And the "I'm gonna kill myself if I don't get _______" thing is really weird, like you think transgenderism is some shallow emo hissy-fit about genitals, as opposed to being a matter of identity.

[delet...]

onya zoe, respect.

 

I don't mean to pry, but may i ask, how did you came to choose your female name, given that i presume you had a choice in this matter? I'd imagine that It's comparable to how we get to choose a nick for online interaction, a tag that follows us around through the years, unlike the birthname which the parents lumped on us.

 

(don't start whinging about how it's unfair that you can't change your watmm login guys)