The Zimmerman case?

[vamos scorcho]

Da left shot themselves in the foot with this thing. They made it obvious that they don't care about the facts and now that's going to haunt them. Anyone who reads the case in full and then sees the opinions being repeated like mantras inthe NYT and on Facebook can tell that people are simply uninterested or incapable of acknowledging the nuance and complexity of the situation. Many of my friends and especially news sources like the NYT have recently damaged their credibility. Severely.

 

Regardless of what that is, I can't help but simply notice that the left has made a significant error with their relentless and completely irrational spinning of this case into som kind of racial event.

[Guest Mirezzi]

In related news:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/wis-man-killed-teen-neighbor-justice-19706369

A Milwaukee man who killed his 13-year-old neighbor last year testified Thursday the shooting was "justice" because he thought the teen had broken into his home and stolen weapons.

John Henry Spooner, 76, said the suspicion that Darius Simmons stole expensive shotguns of deep sentimental value left him "very, very angry." Police searched Darius' home after the shooting and didn't find the weapons.

A prosecutor alleged that Spooner traded the boy's life for guns in a desire for revenge.

"I wouldn't call it revenge. I would call it justice," Spooner said defiantly, drawing audible gasps from the courtroom. Darius' mother, Patricia Larry, threw up her hands and muttered, "Oh my god."

Spooner mostly spoke in a calm voice but sounded anguished as he recounted how he confronted Darius and shot him in the chest. He recalled that someone had stolen four shotguns from his home two days earlier, and he was frustrated by a limited police response.

Gimbel asked him what caused him to shoot the boy.

"I wanted my guns back," Spooner replied, squeezing his eyes shut and resting his head against his fingertips. "I just wanted them back so bad."

A court-appointed doctor says a Milwaukee man who fatally shot his teenage neighbor because he suspected him of burglary showed no signs of delusional behavior.

Dr. Robert Rawski said Friday that in interviews after the shooting, John Henry Spooner proved was aware of his environment when he killed 13-year-old Darius Simmons.

The 76-year-old Spooner was convicted Wednesday of first-degree intentional homicide. His trial is now in a second phase to determine whether he was mentally ill when he killed Darius.

Spooner testified Thursday that he killed Darius because he really wanted his stolen guns back. He described the killing as "justice" for the theft of his weapons. Police searched Darius' home after the shooting and didn't find the guns.

Jurors could return a verdict as early as Friday afternoon.

I've learned something from all this...

Revenge for any and all criminal acts can be achieved by shooting the nearest black kid.

[MisterE]

MisterE does indeed have some valid points but unfortunately he maintained the contrary position in the exact same regard as the people he's criticising. Whatever new information came to light, he would select the stuff that suited his position and ignore the rest.

 

Now, if his position had been completely neutral and sceptical --'we don't know'' 'innocent until proven guilty' etc--then that would be all well and good but MisterE was actively attacking Martin's character (e.g. 'he was homophobic') and so it's absolutely fucking rediculous for him to say tisk-tisk about people not being objective.

that's not really the case. or to be honest there's probably some kind of sliding scale or gray area with everyone (including me). everyone's biased to some degree, obviously. but obviously we all already have our own notions of right and wrong and so we're going to judge events/situations based on that. but if it had come out, for example, that trayvon was shot in the back. i wouldn't have hesitated to then slip into my mind being unmade. to being still in the air but largely towards zim doing something horribly wrong with evil intent. i mention that example because someone actually argued to me irl that he had been, once. pretty sure that person gets their ideas about what's going on in the world from shows like family guy, btw.

 

and when i say 'unmade', i think the main thing that was made up in my mind, was that the relevant facts were simply not all there for quite a while after the event happened. after it happened i knew something fucked happened, but i didn't have all the facts (i could see the fact that he was being railroaded, however). zim told his side of the story, and i at least considered that it might be true. something like maybe half of the country, on the other hand, decided then and there that zim was lying and guilty of a racist hit job. as facts came out, they just so happened to give zim's account of what happened more credibility in my eyes. the main thing to me is that i don't think he ever wanted to kill someone, and many people still say he did. maybe what he did by getting out of the car wasn't the smartest move ever, but if he didn't get out of it with intent to kill a black kid, then to me that's a huge world of a difference from not acting on a situation perfectly. because how many people do that every time. so he might have put himself in the situation, but not by doing anything that was actually illegal. he got out of his car, ran in a direction towards where trayvon was headed, turned back, and got attacked. none of those things he did was illegal. it was his neighborhood. it's not against the law to follow people for a few feet. it is to assault people.

 

lots of people protesting this are still trying to say zim did it with intent because he's an evil racist, and lots of others might not think that but still go along with it just because they don't like the outcome of the trial. either he wanted to kill a black kid because he's racist or he didn't. otherwise he did something everyone can easily judge and give alternatives for how he should have handled it, but it's pretty easy to do that when one of the many fuckups or mistakes we all make every day didn't result in some kid getting killed, and we don't have to live with that. think about how easily our fuckups could fuck us up though. i think everyone alive is maybe only a heartbeat or 2 away from a horrible accident, death, or even incarceration at any given time. one thing for something like that to happen, another for everyone in the entire country to judge you as racist and evil because of it, and have people you never met bragging about how you won't last long b4 the streets catch up 2 you. what, like something out of the end of frankenstein (1931)?

 

and tbh, i don't really care for zim TOO much personally. i more care about the flawed/imperfect justice system at least holding and not giving way to something more like anarchism and mob rule, which i think would be much more hellish, and the implications of the media's side of what happened. i heard he voted O so i think it's statistically and provably more likely he would also think he deserved to be in prison, if it happened to some other him besides him. so to me that's just the world having a sweet little piece of irony in it... actually, it's kind of a huge piece of irony. he may have well thought he was racist if he saw the same thing on the media about an alternative zimmerman who did exactly what he did, if it wasn't him, but the other him. universe has sense of humor.

[Alcofribas]

it's pathetic how you're desperately trying to depict Martin as this violent homophobe while simultaneously making the case that Zimmerman is being too harshly judged by the media an pc liberals for his "mistake."

[Guest Mirezzi]

Regardless of what that is, I can't help but simply notice that the left has made a significant error with their relentless and completely irrational spinning of this case into som kind of racial event.

Yeah, totally dude. You are so right.

 

When George Zimmerman's attorneys called Olivia Bertalan to the stand and she was all, "Two young black men tried to rob me while I clutched my boy with a pair of scissors.." I was thinking, "See. Totally not racial."

 

When O'Mara kinda threw up his hands and said, "Oops! Sorry Trayvon, the fact you're young and black is just...happenstance!" I was thinking, "Exactly, Mark. This story is so not racial."

 

Then, I had a look at six of Zimmerman's 46 phone calls to 911...made during the twelve month period leading up to the shooting of Martin.

 

45. Feb. 26, 2012 (night of Martin shooting) – 7:11 p.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Suspicious activity

Report: Black male “late teens lsw dark gray hoodie jeans or sweatpants walking around area” … “subj now running towards back entrance of complex”

 

 

44. Feb. 2, 2012 – 8:29 p.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Suspicious activity

Report: “Black male last seen wearing: black leather jacket, black hat, printed PJ pants, he keeps going going to this” location

 

41. Oct. 1, 2011 – 12:53 a.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Suspicious activity

Report: Two black male suspects “20–30 YOA in [white] Chevy poss Impala at the gate of the community.” Zimmerman “does not recognize subjs or veh and is concerned due to recent” burglaries in the area

 

39. Aug. 6, 2011 – 10:20 p.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Suspicious activity

Report: Two black males, one wearing a black tank top and black shorts, the second wearing a black t-shirt and jeans … “Subjs are in their teens”

 

38. Aug. 3, 2011 – 6:45 p.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Suspicious activity

Report: Black male last seen wearing a white tank top and black shorts … Zimmerman “believes subject is involved in recent” burglaries in the neighborhood

 

36. April 22, 2011 – 7:09 p.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Suspicious activity

Report: Juvenile black male “apprx 7–9” years old, four feet tall “skinny build short blk hair” last seen wearing a blue t-shirt and blue shorts

See, George Zimmerman has black friends. He likes black guns. He mentors black kids. He's not racist at all and this story doesn't have an ounce of racial components in its narrative. Zimmerman...man, what the hell...he just thinks blacks are suspicious and that they act kinda strange. Like they're on drugs or somethin'.

 

He'd totally report white male activity to the police if, like, a white male raped somebody in daylight or maybe killed somebody. He'd think about it, for sure. Our boy Zim...he likes to call 911! He's crazy. GOD I LOVE HIS FAT ASS.

[Guest Mirezzi]

Oh, and by the way, before any of you get all twisted up because my boy Zim called the police on some 7 year-old black boys, stop and think about it for a second, mmkay?

 

Zim believes in vertical integration. He's steeped in some serious Carnegie shit, dude is super smart like that.

 

What he likes to do, you see, is find some thuggish black boys so that he can MENTOR THEM after they do some time in juvenile detention.

 

When he shot Trayvon, he almost perfected his model.

 

1. He sees black kid doing nothing wrong.

2. He MAKES that black kid do something wrong so that...

3. He can actually FIX the black kid with his mentorship program.

 

If Martin hadn't gone all uppity negro on him, Zim would have helped Trayvon turn his life around.

[Guest A/D]

Look, Zimmerman's racism to me is just as irrelevant as Martin's "thuggish pretenses" or whatever. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, and all that.

 

Who cares? The real problem is that you can't start a fight with someone and then shoot them in self-defense. That's bullshit and it makes a mockery of having laws.

[eugene]

tbh looking at the complete list of those calls it seems like he sees pretty much everything as suspicious

[MisterE]

it's pathetic how you're desperately trying to depict Martin as this violent homophobe while simultaneously making the case that Zimmerman is being too harshly judged by the media an pc liberals for his "mistake."

is that funny, alcofibulious? ya know what i think's funny? that i only mentioned the homophobe angle because i think plenty of the types of people who jumped on the big ole 'Zim's a racist killer who wanted to kill blacks' bandwagon are the same types who would be there calling someone a homophobe if there was an assault that didn't end in a shooting but had all the other features of this one (so minus the gun, and maybe if skin colors were switched around/mixed up). so yeah, i think it's entirely relevant for me to bring up.

 

ya know what's double funny? truth is... i don't totally believe the rapist/gay rapist/whatever angle myself in the first place! that's why i asked why it wasn't brought into the trial. i think it's entirely possible that either a)jeantel made it up AFTER the fact of the trial, when it became so apparent that it went the way it did due to the fact of who the aggressor was and zim's injuries, and that trayvon could have went inside his house instead of going back to beat a cracker's ass. maybe it became apparent that tray needed a better reason to do that. enter the little bro back home who tray had to defend from a (gay) rapist. what a PERFECT story. i couldn't make one better myself. or b) the same story was given to the prosecutor who decided not to bring it in because he thought it was a lie, or c) he decided to not bring it in because...

wait for it...

 

to not make trayvon look like a possible..

it's coming...

yes that's right.

a possible homophobe.

 

can you imagine a 4th reason why it wasn't brought in that's more likely than those 3? i did directly say that he was likely a homophobe at one point, but that was right after i was called a fucking idiot once or twice. but if you look at all of my other relevant posts, i was just suggesting it be in the realm of possibility based on what she said (which was HER depiction, NOT mine), and that the same people saying zim is racist would have likely or very possibly seen it that way if it happened in another case without a shooting, that concluded with someone laying on a sidewalk in their blood as a kid ran away, and what she said about the kid and her conversation with him came out in an interview afterwards.

 

so imo the things she said in the morgan interview are entirely relevant and left leaning defenders of minority groups who ever called the hispanic zimmerman racist, need to confront it.

[Alcofribas]

i never said it was funny.

 

lol

[Alcofribas]

Look, Zimmerman's racism to me is just as irrelevant as Martin's "thuggish pretenses" or whatever. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, and all that.

 

Who cares? The real problem is that you can't start a fight with someone and then shoot them in self-defense. That's bullshit and it makes a mockery of having laws.

this post is quite reasonable

 

also, eugene's observation is reasonable:

 

"guy wearing clothes. looks suspicious."

[goDel]

So, at this point I'm just assuming we all kind of agree, but some like to hypothetically duke it out with imaginary people with a specific set of beliefs not present on watmm anyways?

 

As some representative of those imaginary people, I'd like to admit to whatever needs to be admit.

[MisterE]

i never said it was funny.

 

lol

well, touche, you win that one! no need to comment on anything else i said. ur so smart. all you need is like 5 or 6 words to prove you're right about things. about the average length of your posts where you are supposing to be in the right about something while also suggesting that someone else is dumb. that's fucking einsteinian levels of elegance and efficiency. you should win a science award for your skills in language. you've figured out how to boil language down to the most minute quantity of bare essentials. you've figured out a way to rebut arguments without even having to do it. i can't decide if ur posting skills are more of a brilliant science or a (possibly dark) art. are you really the guy in your avatar? r u really that guy?

 

u should be in texts in the future, about famous smart dead people who said great things.

like:

'lol' - alcofabulous

[Alcofribas]

Alcofribas: "lush"

[olo]

skittle artist needs your help

 

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/22880925/trayvon-martin-mural-to-be-completed-with-skittles-at-vigil

 

The comments in this column are rather noteworthy as well.

[MisterE]

So, at this point I'm just assuming we all kind of agree, but some like to hypothetically duke it out with imaginary people with a specific set of beliefs not present on watmm anyways?

 

As some representative of those imaginary people, I'd like to admit to whatever needs to be admit.

ok ya know what. fair enough. i suppose there hasn't been a torrent of zimmerman is racist or used racial profiling language explicitly stated in this thread or here at watmm in general. i have seen it said here though. but i don't think i said most people here thought that, and i think it's pretty clear i've been replying to a few particular people lately. and also, i think this thread was suspiciously and conspicuously absent, only appearing AFTER the verdict, probably because many were afraid to say anything (and still are), BECAUSE of the race angle.

 

so i can't say i KNOW what anyone would have said about zimmerman if we had been talking about this earlier, but i can say that, again, i would bet some of my body parts against large lump sums of cash that some of the people slagging on me, WERE at some point saying zim was either likely racist, or that he profiled trayvon racially. and that a guy being assaulted for being a possible (gay) rapist merely for following someone a few feet, could have got those same people to call that kid a homophobe. i'd take that bet because it's SAFE.

 

if it would make you happy i will agree with you that maybe in the netherlands the trial would have went differently. then i'll also add- so what. if it took place on the moon everyone would have died from lack of oxygen. whats your point you think you have with that?

[LimpyLoo]

MisterE, you don't see Zim as 'casually racist'?

[lumpenprol]

 

 

. if it took place on the moon everyone would have died from lack of oxygen. whats your point you think you have with that?

 

lol, sounds like a child's audioclip that Boards of Canada would have incorporated into one of their songs..

[vamos scorcho]

So, Overlook, are you denying that

 

 

Regardless of what that is, I can't help but simply notice that the left has made a significant error with their relentless and completely irrational spinning of this case into som kind of racial event.

Yeah, totally dude. You are so right.

When George Zimmerman's attorneys called Olivia Bertalan to the stand and she was all, "Two young black men tried to rob me while I clutched my boy with a pair of scissors.." I was thinking, "See. Totally not racial."

When O'Mara kinda threw up his hands and said, "Oops! Sorry Trayvon, the fact you're young and black is just...happenstance!" I was thinking, "Exactly, Mark. This story is so not racial."

Then, I had a look at six of Zimmerman's 46 phone calls to 911...made during the twelve month period leading up to the shooting of Martin.

45. Feb. 26, 2012 (night of Martin shooting) – 7:11 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Black male “late teens lsw dark gray hoodie jeans or sweatpants walking around area” … “subj now running towards back entrance of complex”


44. Feb. 2, 2012 – 8:29 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: “Black male last seen wearing: black leather jacket, black hat, printed PJ pants, he keeps going going to this” location

41. Oct. 1, 2011 – 12:53 a.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Two black male suspects “20–30 YOA in [white] Chevy poss Impala at the gate of the community.” Zimmerman “does not recognize subjs or veh and is concerned due to recent” burglaries in the area

39. Aug. 6, 2011 – 10:20 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Two black males, one wearing a black tank top and black shorts, the second wearing a black t-shirt and jeans … “Subjs are in their teens”

38. Aug. 3, 2011 – 6:45 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Black male last seen wearing a white tank top and black shorts … Zimmerman “believes subject is involved in recent” burglaries in the neighborhood

36. April 22, 2011 – 7:09 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Juvenile black male “apprx 7–9” years old, four feet tall “skinny build short blk hair” last seen wearing a blue t-shirt and blue shorts

See, George Zimmerman has black friends. He likes black guns. He mentors black kids. He's not racist at all and this story doesn't have an ounce of racial components in its narrative. Zimmerman...man, what the hell...he just thinks blacks are suspicious and that they act kinda strange. Like they're on drugs or somethin'.

He'd totally report white male activity to the police if, like, a white male raped somebody in daylight or maybe killed somebody. He'd think about it, for sure. Our boy Zim...he likes to call 911! He's crazy. GOD I LOVE HIS FAT ASS.

 

This is idiotic, bordering on bastardly levels of unthought, and you're completely distorting reality to fit your version. I have no respect for people who do that. The only thing this data suggests is that 6 out of 46 calls were reports of black people. Guess what, you fucking idiot: black people commit crime too! Oh my god, am I racist for saying that now?? I'M SO ASHAMED.

[joshuatxuk]

Who cares? The real problem is that you can't start a fight with someone and then shoot them in self-defense. That's bullshit and it makes a mockery of having laws.

[MisterE]

limpy:

no more than i see you as the kind of person who perpetuates this spiderweb network of language, phrases, and your own custom definitions so you can have this big net as a wildcard up your sleeve for you and those who are likeminded to be able to pull out of their sleeve and slam down as a trump (race) card if needed.

 

do i think it'd be nice to have a card i could pull out to of MY sleeve to always be right about anything that got remotely close to the subject of race or, any subject (and the best left wingers can make real good arguments with lots of their sociological phrases and words which THEY invented, and then pass off as if they're 100% hard scientifically proven factual things, to suggest that EVERYTHING has to do with the subject of race, apparently making your trump card universal)? sure, yeah, that'd be awesome. but i guess you have to control the narrative to have your network/safetynet be hooked into place. and unfortunately for me, i don't have media people among those who i am likeminded with.

[goDel]

 

if it would make you happy i will agree with you that maybe in the netherlands the trial would have went differently. then i'll also add- so what. if it took place on the moon everyone would have died from lack of oxygen. whats your point you think you have with that?

 

 

LOL

 

In conclusion, we'd all be better off on the moon. (playing tomorrow's harvest in our final minutes)

[LimpyLoo]

limpy:

no more than i see you as the kind of person who perpetuates this spiderweb network of language, phrases, and your own custom definitions so you can have this big net as a wildcard up your sleeve for you and those who are likeminded to be able to pull out of their sleeve and slam down as a trump (race) card if needed.

 

do i think it'd be nice to have a card i could pull out to of MY sleeve to always be right about anything that got remotely close to the subject of race or, any subject (and the best left wingers can make real good arguments with lots of their sociological phrases and words which THEY invented, and then pass off as if they're 100% hard scientifically proven factual things, to suggest that EVERYTHING has to do with the subject of race, apparently making your trump card universal)? sure, yeah, that'd be awesome. but i guess you have to control the narrative to have your network/safetynet be hooked into place. and unfortunately for me, i don't have media people among those who i am likeminded with.

 

 

Mainstream media is flawed, yes. But that doesn't mean that we can't know anything.

 

 

Like I said, the funny thing is that you aren't neutral, but rather you are the bizarro version of the sheeple you are critising. You are pushing talking points from the right.

[Guest Mirezzi]

IBBU

 

Idiotic Bordering Bastardly Unthought

 

--

 

Mmmkay.

 

Racism isn't fixed to a binary and it doesn't require that Zim Quixote was a member of the Stormfront to see that he had systematically been profiling young black men in his neighborhood for over a year before he followed - from his car and then on foot - a young black man who was guilty of minding his own business.

 

Also, yeah, what A/D said.

 

If you're a bored fat pussy with a glass chin, it's a bit fucking demented that you're legally covered in the U.S. if you decide to carry a loaded gun and behave like a vigilante faux cop while profiling young black men.

 

Sure, he liked to call the police for all manner of horseshit, but in the year leading up to his masturbatory fantasy showdown with Trayvon Martin, he'd clearly been zeroing in on young black dudes, even 7 year-olds. In fact, it's rumored by MSNBC that Zimmerman's mantra was: "Old enough to stand up. Old enough for me to follow 'em around and shoot a black ass."

 

If you see a report in 2011-2012 where he'd called in suspicious {anything other than black male} humans, show it to me.

 

MisterE's perspective is fairly clear. He believes Zim in the famous video interview with Chris Serino when he says, "I went for my uhhh...hmm...cellphone," while reaching for his right hip.

 

Sure, it's possible Zimmerman told the truth. You can believe that. I don't.

 

I think Zimmerman just as likely attempted some form of citizen's arrest or asked clumsy Barney Fife questions of Martin. "What're you doin' out her so late at night? Do you live around here?" I think during the physical encounter, Zimmerman's gun was revealed early on and the level of violence escalated in a hurry, but Trayvon Martin couldn't stand his ground because he showed up for a gunfight without one.

 

In theatrical terms, this was a perfect melodramatic triangle where Zimmerman was, simultaneously, performing the roles of Hero, Villain, and Damsel-in-Distress. He was then judge, jury, and executioner where Martin was concerned. Subsequently, he never showed an ounce of remorse for what he'd done.

 

Was the verdict correct? Yes, absolutely. That jury followed the letter of some pretty fucking lolorific laws. Ground stood. American Justice: SERVED.

 

Now, our boy George can strap his gat back on his hip, pop a few anxiety meds, and hit the streets looking for more Fuckin' Punks. He can even make sure they don't get away.

 

I can't wait for his encore. Dude's a stone cold killer and don't he just make some old white Floridian ladies wet!

 

Charles Pierce is awesome, despite his Idiotic Bordering Bastardly Unthoughts, and he kinda kills it with his essay:

 

http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/The_End_Of_The_Daily_Trayvon

[LimpyLoo]

Yeah honestly. If I had been in a situation where in earnest I was forced to shoot and kill another human being in self-defense, I would feel really shitty that a person had to die.

 

Whereas Zimmerman thought that his altercation with Martin was "God's plan."