Why is it that everytime someone says such-and-such music is totally awesome, and you go and listen to it, and it sucks?

[Friendly Foil]

What a stupid thing to say.

[dr lopez]

ugh i want to write out a kraftwerk is the greatest band in history post but I don't have the time. shit

I was about to say Dr Lopez might have a thing or two to say about this, before scrolling down and seeing your post and I'm slightly dissapointed with your lack of effort lol.

 

You wrote a nice little essay about them about a year ago on one thread, maybe you should fish that out the vaults, I'm sure you remember which post I refer to.

General quick thoughts on this discussion and response to zaphod. More to come

 

The conceptual move to compose music with concrete and inanimate works of technology engineering as its subject matter was completely unique and trendsetting in popular music. This was in complete opposition to the jammy psychedelic "subject matter" of all other kraut-rock and the pseudo-spiritual BS of english rock ala Led Zeppelin, but also to the common German melodramatic Schlager love songs that dominated the radio AND of course the anglo-american blues rock and roll tradition.

 

This idea to have a through-composed work of music on a distinct theme or story actually comes closer aesthetically to the tone poems of the late 19th century German romantic period - wagner, mahler, strauss etc. I feel the irony and humor is inherent in writing romantic tone poems to inanimate objects like Autobahns, radios and train service. Which I guess brings me to the central crux of Kraftwerk's artistic goals. To me Kraftwerk were trying to rebirth a rich and proud pre-nazi German musical tradition into a fundamentally altered post-war Europe. There is a constant dialog between pre-war styles and post-war technology throughout their work. I think The Man-Machine is the most obvious, it's not really about "robots" of the 70s or of the future, it's really a throwback to the hilarious (and cheesy) robotic futurism of weimar germany/lenin russia of the 20s and 30s. " There's a song called Metropolis, if the El Lissitzky style album art wasn't clear enough. That video was retro in 1978.

[joseph]

The answer to this question is not "Different people like different music" because while true, this answer does not explain anything and is just a rewording of the question in declarative form.

 

The correct answer is this: the taste of most people, including most WATTMers (but to a lesser degree perhaps), is dominated by social factors. What their friends like, what music web sites hype and recommend, what looks "cool", etc.

 

But these social factors are strictly irrelevant to how GOOD the music is, and yes, good music is not relative, not "subjective", it is objectively good or bad, though our understanding of what separates good and bad is always imperfect.

 

For example, Grimes is bad, shitty, awful music and this is an objective fact. This is an example of a band who was built solely on hype and social media but which to my knowledge is actually incapable of making good music.

 

Which music is good is not determined by a popular vote, and while certain people have better taste that others, no person or source has perfect taste and the people who let their taste be set according to the social criteria mentioned above will always have shitty taste. These people are in the majority, and this answers the question.

[joseph]

It also partially answers the question "Why do different people like different music?". Well, because the social methods for setting one's taste don't particularly find the correct music, they find the music that was socially chosen for whatever reason. It's obvious that you won't see convergence. On the other hand, people who ignore social criteria will converge to the truly meaningful and good music because these are objective qualities.

 

As an analogy, consider that there's some correct way to do a certain arithmetic problem. Different people in different planets will find the same answer to the problem if they understand the procedure, which is not determined "subjectively".

 

But if certain planets brainwashed their citizens into using the "politically correct" arithmetic, you will see that they all differ because they used criteria for arithmetic which were strictly unrelated to arithmetic.

[awepittance]

who would you cite as a major force in electronic music development round from the same era as Kraftwerk, if not Kraftwerk?

Fred Frith, Cluster, Giorgio Moroder, Throbbing Gristle

[Lane Visitor]

The answer to this question is not "Different people like different music" because while true, this answer does not explain anything and is just a rewording of the question in declarative form.

 

The correct answer is this: the taste of most people, including most WATTMers (but to a lesser degree perhaps), is dominated by social factors. What their friends like, what music web sites hype and recommend, what looks "cool", etc.

 

But these social factors are strictly irrelevant to how GOOD the music is, and yes, good music is not relative, not "subjective", it is objectively good or bad, though our understanding of what separates good and bad is always imperfect.

 

For example, Grimes is bad, shitty, awful music and this is an objective fact. This is an example of a band who was built solely on hype and social media but which to my knowledge is actually incapable of making good music.

 

Which music is good is not determined by a popular vote, and while certain people have better taste that others, no person or source has perfect taste and the people who let their taste be set according to the social criteria mentioned above will always have shitty taste. These people are in the majority, and this answers the question.

 

wow, i actually really like your unconventional argument regarding taste, good, bad, quality as it relates to music. i can't help but agree with you in many ways, that there are things that make a song more "musical". more engaging. more emotionally-appealing, more danceable, more funky, more imaginative, etc. while art is generally held as a subjective arena, i definitely think there are standards. can't stand the "it's-all-relative" crowd.

[dr lopez]

 

ugh i want to write out a kraftwerk is the greatest band in history post but I don't have the time. shit

I was about to say Dr Lopez might have a thing or two to say about this, before scrolling down and seeing your post and I'm slightly dissapointed with your lack of effort lol.

 

You wrote a nice little essay about them about a year ago on one thread, maybe you should fish that out the vaults, I'm sure you remember which post I refer to.

 

General quick thoughts on this discussion and response to zaphod. More to come

 

The conceptual move to compose music with concrete and inanimate works of technology engineering as its subject matter was completely unique and trendsetting in popular music. This was in complete opposition to the jammy psychedelic "subject matter" of all other kraut-rock and the pseudo-spiritual BS of english rock ala Led Zeppelin, but also to the common German melodramatic Schlager love songs that dominated the radio AND of course the anglo-american blues rock and roll tradition.

 

This idea to have a through-composed work of music on a distinct theme or story actually comes closer aesthetically to the tone poems of the late 19th century German romantic period - wagner, mahler, strauss etc. I feel the irony and humor is inherent in writing romantic tone poems to inanimate objects like Autobahns, radios and train service. Which I guess brings me to the central crux of Kraftwerk's artistic goals. To me Kraftwerk were trying to rebirth a rich and proud pre-nazi German musical tradition into a fundamentally altered post-war Europe. There is a constant dialog between pre-war styles and post-war technology throughout their work. I think The Man-Machine is the most obvious, it's not really about "robots" of the 70s or of the future, it's really a throwback to the hilarious (and cheesy) robotic futurism of weimar germany/lenin russia of the 20s and 30s. " There's a song called Metropolis, if the El Lissitzky style album art wasn't clear enough. That video was retro in 1978.

 

And with most English press centering on their robot-ness, it seems easy for Juan and Derrick to fit that small, and intentionally ironic and silly element, into their thoughts about a techno-future post-apocalyptic city of Detroit, without really knowing anything about German history, from romantic classical composers to the cultural identity crisis of prosperous West Germans still stricken with nationwide war grief, essentially missing the "humor" completely essential in understanding Kraftwerk's aesthetic goals. This mistake of course has been carried on and carried on as Kraftwerk and Detroit's influence became more and more felt. Autechre are on record saying Kraftwerk "are totally futuristic ufos.. space.." and what-have-you, rather than "Kraftwerk used post-war technology to interpret pre-war art and technology in an attempt to synthesize a new pan-european identity." There is a serious disconnect between the two!

 

I will agree that I find The Man-Machine the least interesting (and cheesiest) Kraftwerk album, as it doesn't really focus on a single technological theme unlike Autobahn, Radio-Activity, TEE and Computer World. TMM was more a personal identity statement of the band rather than the perfected cultural critique of the other four. Also Space Lab and Metropolis reek of Moroder and Moskow Diskow as if Kraftwerk got a little scared that others were trying out their shtick and doing it better? So if one was to understand Kraftwerk through only TMM I would understand some of the criticism.

 

That said, I find it completely impossible to claim Kraftwerk are interesting only because of their historical influence without listening to Computer World. The rhythms are tight and driving. The sound design, construction and mixing is light years ahead of anything coming out of Detroit or anywhere really and it's 1981. Go and listen to 4:18 of Home Computer. Sounds like an early Lego Feet outtake, but cleaner and ten years earlier. But beyond the sheer production skill on display, Computer World actually has a bizarrely accurate prediction of our world of computers today. What's so powerful about Computer World is that it's never overly-optimistic, unlike almost every other forward-looking prediction of the digital age. It's either usually "EVERY PROBLEM IS SOLVED WITH COMPUTERS" or "THE WORLD IS IN RUIN WITH COMPUTERS - OUR SOCIETY IS OVER." Kraftwerk predict a world in which it's more fun to compute, but Interpol, Deutsche Bank, the FBI and Scotland Yard also have all of your information (explained in the German version.) And of course they captured the unique melancholic ennui of internet dating in Computer Love! Unglaublich. And, as alco said, this was all made without them actually having any computers of their own. Hard to find an album that not only predicts the future of music but also the future of human culture in under 40 minutes. I actually haven't really come across much art that achieves that.

 

Ok. I'm done. I could go on for pages and pages and pages but no one would care. In short. Kraftwerk. They're really good.

[joshuatxuk]

 

The answer to this question is not "Different people like different music" because while true, this answer does not explain anything and is just a rewording of the question in declarative form.

 

The correct answer is this: the taste of most people, including most WATTMers (but to a lesser degree perhaps), is dominated by social factors. What their friends like, what music web sites hype and recommend, what looks "cool", etc.

 

But these social factors are strictly irrelevant to how GOOD the music is, and yes, good music is not relative, not "subjective", it is objectively good or bad, though our understanding of what separates good and bad is always imperfect.

 

For example, Grimes is bad, shitty, awful music and this is an objective fact. This is an example of a band who was built solely on hype and social media but which to my knowledge is actually incapable of making good music.

 

Which music is good is not determined by a popular vote, and while certain people have better taste that others, no person or source has perfect taste and the people who let their taste be set according to the social criteria mentioned above will always have shitty taste. These people are in the majority, and this answers the question.

 

wow, i actually really like your unconventional argument regarding taste, good, bad, quality as it relates to music. i can't help but agree with you in many ways, that there are things that make a song more "musical". more engaging. more emotionally-appealing, more danceable, more funky, more imaginative, etc. while art is generally held as a subjective arena, i definitely think there are standards. can't stand the "it's-all-relative" crowd.

 

 

It also partially answers the question "Why do different people like different music?". Well, because the social methods for setting one's taste don't particularly find the correct music, they find the music that was socially chosen for whatever reason. It's obvious that you won't see convergence. On the other hand, people who ignore social criteria will converge to the truly meaningful and good music because these are objective qualities.

 

As an analogy, consider that there's some correct way to do a certain arithmetic problem. Different people in different planets will find the same answer to the problem if they understand the procedure, which is not determined "subjectively".

 

But if certain planets brainwashed their citizens into using the "politically correct" arithmetic, you will see that they all differ because they used criteria for arithmetic which were strictly unrelated to arithmetic.

 

These are really good, thought-provoking posts. You definitely got at the core of the issue.

 

It's funny, within your comments I still read the bit about Grimes and thought "oh for fucks sake" but in the context of your perspective it's a fair point. That's the thing, if you were in fact, dictated by the "tastes" that most people utilize, I would actually be quite miffed. That album is objectively overrated and irrelevant though it's not terrible either at points ("Genesis" is a perfectly good composition). Likewise, I would still argue that, objectively, Random Access Memories is good, certainly not great or important, and yet because of the behemoth of music industry backing and promotion to mostly ignorant and passive audiences, that truth is not at all apparent, nor will it ever be. An even more arguable and controversial point I'd argue (and I believe I stated earlier) is that a band like Coldplay, Mumford & Sons or even Justin Timberlake, are - how should I put this - "reasonably adequate" and yet they perpetually evoke feelings of annoyance, dislike, and even pure ire from people who like and love equally derivative, and often actually weaker, pop music. Compounding this problem is that critics and journalists not only set these examples, they enter futile debates and discussions over such arbitrary standards. People literally make careers with such mindsets. So what you pointed out is precisely what sets up the question asked in the first place. (Good job!)

 

There's also the more-deep rooted social contexts. Tritones at their most stereotypical evoke fear, darkness, and sinister feelings, or at the very least a need for resolution musically in a work, but this is exclusive to Western music, whereas in Africa or Asia, tritones, minor keys, and quarter-tones are a core part of indigenous music (and likewise, evoke a sense of the exotic or mysterious to Westerners historically).

 

My only question still would be, what about the human senses themselves? Is there an ultimately "objective" standard on that level?My friend with synesthesia is very musically apt, with absolute pitch, but also has literal issues with some common music. She has found herself overwhelmed with some music (I remember she had a very intense reaction to Polynomial C) and finds many popular singers that use blue notes or sing stylistically flat as very unpleasant, as she literally has color reactions to such music that are unbearable, but which most people would have no adverse reaction to. On a broader level, there's the aspect of timbre, which can make the exact same notes vary tremendously depending on the instrument or device used. There's the physical placement of sound as well: a small and crowded room versus an expansive open chamber. Are there certain natural certainties of sound (including mathematical aspects) and likewise, human sensory fictions, that are truly absolute?

[joseph]

Thanks for not dismissing me after the Grimes comment, I was just going off the handful of songs I've heard + the hype. I could have picked a thousand other bands. And of course, I could be wrong about them.

 

Ultimately there are no absolute certainties, even mathematical ones. But nevertheless, there are objectives facts out there and we can understand them better and better. We find out facts about beauty and creativity by making and appreciating art. We may not fully understand why certain music is incredibly beautiful (funky, creative) and certain other music "stinks", and everything in between, but there is something objective there, built into the laws of the universe. Any argument to the contrary can be converted to an argument denying the objective nature of anything, I'm sure.

 

Now, it's not helpful to talk about what's "real", and "objective", to some extent, because these concepts don't have much explanatory value. But in this case, "real" and "objective" are shorthand terms for "any civilization will be expected to discover them independently of us given enough time" and the negation of "it's all based on personal preference".

 

The idea is that just as alien civilizations are expected to understand the Chinese Remainder Theorem and quantum mechanics, they're also expected to have some convergence in their artistic ideas. Obviously our artistic ideas are more primitive and ill-formed than quantum mechanics.

 

Any ideas about beauty that were "built in" to our psyche because they were evolutionary handy will have to be put aside eventually, just like our intuitive understanding that classical newtonian mechanics is "right" was nevertheless found to be hopelessly wrong (although having some usefulness in normal circumstances).

 

So while it's very interesting the ways that Western and non-western cultures differ in their understanding of music, this is to be seen as a temporary side-effect of a knowledge gap (on both sides). I'm sure all cultures can learn profound things by studying the musical ideas of other cultures. But there are truths about beauty towards which we may converge. You don't see uniformity in the scientific community regarding the cutting edge of a field, but you do see uniformity on the deepest underpinnings.

 

And as I said, no doubt our knowledge of beauty (and morality to a greater extent), is minute compared to our knowledge of the physical universe. That's why people can even get away with saying "beauty is in the eye of the beholder", and it's why western and non-western music may seem so damn different.

 

But this is actually very exciting, because it means that deep understanding is on the horizon, somewhere. What look like un-connectable, different, ideas, have got to be connectable -- via new art that is stupefyingly and unimaginably creative compared to what we enjoy today.

[Terpentintollwut]

Why is it that, whenever someone shows you shitty music or says he doesn't like the music you recommended, you go back and listen to your own favorites thinking "This is good, this is good, this is good" like a silent protest.

[kaini]

i'm not sure how you can say pink floyd are terrible, kaini (unless you're being sarcastic). all iterations? i don't like anything they did after meddle, but that album is fantastic. and there are some good tracks prior to that. and actually, animals is pretty great, so i lied.

i was being a tad hyperbolic. meddle is pretty great, and piper at the gates is probably better than 80% of the self-indulgent psychedelic twaddle that was happening at the time. i also really like obscured by clouds, which is a bit of a lesser-known one. but anything after meddle is kinda... revolting. initially it's the sound of some art-school fucks fucking around with equipment paid for by daddy, and later, the sound of some jaded art-school fucks with way too much money renting an orchestra or alan parsons because they know their music sounds thin, pompous, and repetitive. oh boy does it get repetitive after animals - which i will admit is better than DSOTM or WYWH simply because it's so hateful and cynical.

 

i think to understand kraftwerk you need to understand that

 

1 germans have no concept of cheesiness. none. cheesy music is not something that exists in the german worldview.

 

2 the german history of stuff like schlager and oompah (see wolfgang voigt and 1). electronic polka, or oompah, or whatever? sure.

 

3 the german concept of an idealised, idyllic countryside. yeah this is a hard one to associate with kraftwerk, but their music is packed with traditional german folk melodies. packed with em.

 

4 the fact that ralf und florian grew up in a society where a certain mustachioed gentleman was busy developing an infrastructure for germany that exists to this day and has made a huge imprint on their national psyche. it'd be pointless to deny it.

[Guest zaphod]

 

 

ugh i want to write out a kraftwerk is the greatest band in history post but I don't have the time. shit

I was about to say Dr Lopez might have a thing or two to say about this, before scrolling down and seeing your post and I'm slightly dissapointed with your lack of effort lol.

 

You wrote a nice little essay about them about a year ago on one thread, maybe you should fish that out the vaults, I'm sure you remember which post I refer to.

 

General quick thoughts on this discussion and response to zaphod. More to come

 

The conceptual move to compose music with concrete and inanimate works of technology engineering as its subject matter was completely unique and trendsetting in popular music. This was in complete opposition to the jammy psychedelic "subject matter" of all other kraut-rock and the pseudo-spiritual BS of english rock ala Led Zeppelin, but also to the common German melodramatic Schlager love songs that dominated the radio AND of course the anglo-american blues rock and roll tradition.

 

This idea to have a through-composed work of music on a distinct theme or story actually comes closer aesthetically to the tone poems of the late 19th century German romantic period - wagner, mahler, strauss etc. I feel the irony and humor is inherent in writing romantic tone poems to inanimate objects like Autobahns, radios and train service. Which I guess brings me to the central crux of Kraftwerk's artistic goals. To me Kraftwerk were trying to rebirth a rich and proud pre-nazi German musical tradition into a fundamentally altered post-war Europe. There is a constant dialog between pre-war styles and post-war technology throughout their work. I think The Man-Machine is the most obvious, it's not really about "robots" of the 70s or of the future, it's really a throwback to the hilarious (and cheesy) robotic futurism of weimar germany/lenin russia of the 20s and 30s. " There's a song called Metropolis, if the El Lissitzky style album art wasn't clear enough. That video was retro in 1978.

 

And with most English press centering on their robot-ness, it seems easy for Juan and Derrick to fit that small, and intentionally ironic and silly element, into their thoughts about a techno-future post-apocalyptic city of Detroit, without really knowing anything about German history, from romantic classical composers to the cultural identity crisis of prosperous West Germans still stricken with nationwide war grief, essentially missing the "humor" completely essential in understanding Kraftwerk's aesthetic goals. This mistake of course has been carried on and carried on as Kraftwerk and Detroit's influence became more and more felt. Autechre are on record saying Kraftwerk "are totally futuristic ufos.. space.." and what-have-you, rather than "Kraftwerk used post-war technology to interpret pre-war art and technology in an attempt to synthesize a new pan-european identity." There is a serious disconnect between the two!

 

I will agree that I find The Man-Machine the least interesting (and cheesiest) Kraftwerk album, as it doesn't really focus on a single technological theme unlike Autobahn, Radio-Activity, TEE and Computer World. TMM was more a personal identity statement of the band rather than the perfected cultural critique of the other four. Also Space Lab and Metropolis reek of Moroder and Moskow Diskow as if Kraftwerk got a little scared that others were trying out their shtick and doing it better? So if one was to understand Kraftwerk through only TMM I would understand some of the criticism.

 

That said, I find it completely impossible to claim Kraftwerk are interesting only because of their historical influence without listening to Computer World. The rhythms are tight and driving. The sound design, construction and mixing is light years ahead of anything coming out of Detroit or anywhere really and it's 1981. Go and listen to 4:18 of Home Computer. Sounds like an early Lego Feet outtake, but cleaner and ten years earlier. But beyond the sheer production skill on display, Computer World actually has a bizarrely accurate prediction of our world of computers today. What's so powerful about Computer World is that it's never overly-optimistic, unlike almost every other forward-looking prediction of the digital age. It's either usually "EVERY PROBLEM IS SOLVED WITH COMPUTERS" or "THE WORLD IS IN RUIN WITH COMPUTERS - OUR SOCIETY IS OVER." Kraftwerk predict a world in which it's more fun to compute, but Interpol, Deutsche Bank, the FBI and Scotland Yard also have all of your information (explained in the German version.) And of course they captured the unique melancholic ennui of internet dating in Computer Love! Unglaublich. And, as alco said, this was all made without them actually having any computers of their own. Hard to find an album that not only predicts the future of music but also the future of human culture in under 40 minutes. I actually haven't really come across much art that achieves that.

 

Ok. I'm done. I could go on for pages and pages and pages but no one would care. In short. Kraftwerk. They're really good.

 

 

i could actually read a few more pages and want to address your post because it's extremely well written and thoughtful. i am humbled, honestly.

there isn't much i can say to it, as you've taken my ignorance and shown (shined, shone, wtf? sic) a light on it with history and context. however, i cannot listen to history and context. all i have is the music. so despite your informative, kind of amazing mini education on kraftwerk's place in music history, i still only can say this: cheesy as fuck.

don't let that bring you down though. it's pretty obvious that my posts in this thread, maybe most of my posts, are from a place of ignorance, of fear. i am only too happy when someone can blow them apart with knowledge.

my issue with kraftwerk, who now have my full respect thanks to dr. lopez, is really about how their music completely fails to move me. it does not engage my emotions. i enjoy other music that might come from a german tradition. gas is perhaps my favorite artist. pop is a masterpiece. what gas offers that kraftwerk does not is a glimpse of the sublime. it sheds any notions of art and cultural history and just is. no irony, no context. my favorite music works that way.

when i make a post like the ones in this thread, dismissive, swear word laden bullshit, realize that i make that post from an iphone, usually on a commute on the metro, absent mindedly staring out a window at dilapidated buildings, power lines and the reflection of a teenage girl and her folds of fat as she bends slightly to text someone. i am surrounded by technology and want to escape. i don't want to dwell on anything when i listen to electronic music. where kraftwerk just bring to mind the scenery before me, wolfgang voigt sets me free.

[Guest]

holy exploding walls of text

 

(bookmarking for later)

[delet...]

If someone doesn't feel something, why bother pushing. I introduce my friends to music all of the time, some of it sticks. I know that i like stuff that most people don't feel an affinity to, this makes me feel neither special, nor frustrated. Would be nice to know some people in real that are into some of it though, so i guess i am a little frustrated. heh.

[poblequadrat]

The objective value of music is not in compositional "correctness" or "adequateness" within a given culture, but in how it picks things that had to be explored and then generates further aspects to explore, which appear within a particular culture but which, with a bit of translation/transplanting work, become new possibilities for any imaginable culture at any point in history. The objective value of music is picking something with infinite possibilities and adding another set of infinite possibilities to it.

 

Now the debate is whether Kraftwerk do this with their straight-forward rhythms and their basic harmony, but I'd say yes, they do - Dr Lopez's description that "Kraftwerk used post-war technology to interpret pre-war art and technology in an attempt to synthesize a new pan-European identity" really hits the nail. I thought that was what everyone liked about Kraftwerk to be honest?

[MadameChaos]

holy exploding walls of text

 

(bookmarking for later)

 

this

[Alcofribas]

 

 

 

ugh i want to write out a kraftwerk is the greatest band in history post but I don't have the time. shit

 

I was about to say Dr Lopez might have a thing or two to say about this, before scrolling down and seeing your post and I'm slightly dissapointed with your lack of effort lol.

You wrote a nice little essay about them about a year ago on one thread, maybe you should fish that out the vaults, I'm sure you remember which post I refer to.

General quick thoughts on this discussion and response to zaphod. More to come

The conceptual move to compose music with concrete and inanimate works of technology engineering as its subject matter was completely unique and trendsetting in popular music. This was in complete opposition to the jammy psychedelic "subject matter" of all other kraut-rock and the pseudo-spiritual BS of english rock ala Led Zeppelin, but also to the common German melodramatic Schlager love songs that dominated the radio AND of course the anglo-american blues rock and roll tradition.

This idea to have a through-composed work of music on a distinct theme or story actually comes closer aesthetically to the tone poems of the late 19th century German romantic period - wagner, mahler, strauss etc. I feel the irony and humor is inherent in writing romantic tone poems to inanimate objects like Autobahns, radios and train service. Which I guess brings me to the central crux of Kraftwerk's artistic goals. To me Kraftwerk were trying to rebirth a rich and proud pre-nazi German musical tradition into a fundamentally altered post-war Europe. There is a constant dialog between pre-war styles and post-war technology throughout their work. I think The Man-Machine is the most obvious, it's not really about "robots" of the 70s or of the future, it's really a throwback to the hilarious (and cheesy) robotic futurism of weimar germany/lenin russia of the 20s and 30s. " There's a song called Metropolis, if the El Lissitzky style album art wasn't clear enough. That video was retro in 1978.

And with most English press centering on their robot-ness, it seems easy for Juan and Derrick to fit that small, and intentionally ironic and silly element, into their thoughts about a techno-future post-apocalyptic city of Detroit, without really knowing anything about German history, from romantic classical composers to the cultural identity crisis of prosperous West Germans still stricken with nationwide war grief, essentially missing the "humor" completely essential in understanding Kraftwerk's aesthetic goals. This mistake of course has been carried on and carried on as Kraftwerk and Detroit's influence became more and more felt. Autechre are on record saying Kraftwerk "are totally futuristic ufos.. space.." and what-have-you, rather than "Kraftwerk used post-war technology to interpret pre-war art and technology in an attempt to synthesize a new pan-european identity." There is a serious disconnect between the two!I will agree that I find The Man-Machine the least interesting (and cheesiest) Kraftwerk album, as it doesn't really focus on a single technological theme unlike Autobahn, Radio-Activity, TEE and Computer World. TMM was more a personal identity statement of the band rather than the perfected cultural critique of the other four. Also Space Lab and Metropolis reek of Moroder and Moskow Diskow as if Kraftwerk got a little scared that others were trying out their shtick and doing it better? So if one was to understand Kraftwerk through only TMM I would understand some of the criticism.That said, I find it completely impossible to claim Kraftwerk are interesting only because of their historical influence without listening to Computer World. The rhythms are tight and driving. The sound design, construction and mixing is light years ahead of anything coming out of Detroit or anywhere really and it's 1981. Go and listen to 4:18 of Home Computer. Sounds like an early Lego Feet outtake, but cleaner and ten years earlier. But beyond the sheer production skill on display, Computer World actually has a bizarrely accurate prediction of our world of computers today. What's so powerful about Computer World is that it's never overly-optimistic, unlike almost every other forward-looking prediction of the digital age. It's either usually "EVERY PROBLEM IS SOLVED WITH COMPUTERS" or "THE WORLD IS IN RUIN WITH COMPUTERS - OUR SOCIETY IS OVER." Kraftwerk predict a world in which it's more fun to compute, but Interpol, Deutsche Bank, the FBI and Scotland Yard also have all of your information (explained in the German version.) And of course they captured the unique melancholic ennui of internet dating in Computer Love! Unglaublich. And, as alco said, this was all made without them actually having any computers of their own. Hard to find an album that not only predicts the future of music but also the future of human culture in under 40 minutes. I actually haven't really come across much art that achieves that.Ok. I'm done. I could go on for pages and pages and pages but no one would care. In short. Kraftwerk. They're really good.

i could actually read a few more pages and want to address your post because it's extremely well written and thoughtful. i am humbled, honestly.

there isn't much i can say to it, as you've taken my ignorance and shown (shined, shone, wtf? sic) a light on it with history and context. however, i cannot listen to history and context. all i have is the music. so despite your informative, kind of amazing mini education on kraftwerk's place in music history, i still only can say this: cheesy as fuck.

don't let that bring you down though. it's pretty obvious that my posts in this thread, maybe most of my posts, are from a place of ignorance, of fear. i am only too happy when someone can blow them apart with knowledge.

my issue with kraftwerk, who now have my full respect thanks to dr. lopez, is really about how their music completely fails to move me. it does not engage my emotions. i enjoy other music that might come from a german tradition. gas is perhaps my favorite artist. pop is a masterpiece. what gas offers that kraftwerk does not is a glimpse of the sublime. it sheds any notions of art and cultural history and just is. no irony, no context. my favorite music works that way.

when i make a post like the ones in this thread, dismissive, swear word laden bullshit, realize that i make that post from an iphone, usually on a commute on the metro, absent mindedly staring out a window at dilapidated buildings, power lines and the reflection of a teenage girl and her folds of fat as she bends slightly to text someone. i am surrounded by technology and want to escape. i don't want to dwell on anything when i listen to electronic music. where kraftwerk just bring to mind the scenery before me, wolfgang voigt sets me free.

this is one of the best post/reply i have ever read on watmm. zaphod and lopez, very lush indeed.

[beerwolf]

The Doctor likes a bit of The 'werk

[dr lopez]

 

 

 

ugh i want to write out a kraftwerk is the greatest band in history post but I don't have the time. shit

I was about to say Dr Lopez might have a thing or two to say about this, before scrolling down and seeing your post and I'm slightly dissapointed with your lack of effort lol.

 

You wrote a nice little essay about them about a year ago on one thread, maybe you should fish that out the vaults, I'm sure you remember which post I refer to.

 

General quick thoughts on this discussion and response to zaphod. More to come

 

The conceptual move to compose music with concrete and inanimate works of technology engineering as its subject matter was completely unique and trendsetting in popular music. This was in complete opposition to the jammy psychedelic "subject matter" of all other kraut-rock and the pseudo-spiritual BS of english rock ala Led Zeppelin, but also to the common German melodramatic Schlager love songs that dominated the radio AND of course the anglo-american blues rock and roll tradition.

 

This idea to have a through-composed work of music on a distinct theme or story actually comes closer aesthetically to the tone poems of the late 19th century German romantic period - wagner, mahler, strauss etc. I feel the irony and humor is inherent in writing romantic tone poems to inanimate objects like Autobahns, radios and train service. Which I guess brings me to the central crux of Kraftwerk's artistic goals. To me Kraftwerk were trying to rebirth a rich and proud pre-nazi German musical tradition into a fundamentally altered post-war Europe. There is a constant dialog between pre-war styles and post-war technology throughout their work. I think The Man-Machine is the most obvious, it's not really about "robots" of the 70s or of the future, it's really a throwback to the hilarious (and cheesy) robotic futurism of weimar germany/lenin russia of the 20s and 30s. " There's a song called Metropolis, if the El Lissitzky style album art wasn't clear enough. That video was retro in 1978.

 

And with most English press centering on their robot-ness, it seems easy for Juan and Derrick to fit that small, and intentionally ironic and silly element, into their thoughts about a techno-future post-apocalyptic city of Detroit, without really knowing anything about German history, from romantic classical composers to the cultural identity crisis of prosperous West Germans still stricken with nationwide war grief, essentially missing the "humor" completely essential in understanding Kraftwerk's aesthetic goals. This mistake of course has been carried on and carried on as Kraftwerk and Detroit's influence became more and more felt. Autechre are on record saying Kraftwerk "are totally futuristic ufos.. space.." and what-have-you, rather than "Kraftwerk used post-war technology to interpret pre-war art and technology in an attempt to synthesize a new pan-european identity." There is a serious disconnect between the two!

 

I will agree that I find The Man-Machine the least interesting (and cheesiest) Kraftwerk album, as it doesn't really focus on a single technological theme unlike Autobahn, Radio-Activity, TEE and Computer World. TMM was more a personal identity statement of the band rather than the perfected cultural critique of the other four. Also Space Lab and Metropolis reek of Moroder and Moskow Diskow as if Kraftwerk got a little scared that others were trying out their shtick and doing it better? So if one was to understand Kraftwerk through only TMM I would understand some of the criticism.

 

That said, I find it completely impossible to claim Kraftwerk are interesting only because of their historical influence without listening to Computer World. The rhythms are tight and driving. The sound design, construction and mixing is light years ahead of anything coming out of Detroit or anywhere really and it's 1981. Go and listen to 4:18 of Home Computer. Sounds like an early Lego Feet outtake, but cleaner and ten years earlier. But beyond the sheer production skill on display, Computer World actually has a bizarrely accurate prediction of our world of computers today. What's so powerful about Computer World is that it's never overly-optimistic, unlike almost every other forward-looking prediction of the digital age. It's either usually "EVERY PROBLEM IS SOLVED WITH COMPUTERS" or "THE WORLD IS IN RUIN WITH COMPUTERS - OUR SOCIETY IS OVER." Kraftwerk predict a world in which it's more fun to compute, but Interpol, Deutsche Bank, the FBI and Scotland Yard also have all of your information (explained in the German version.) And of course they captured the unique melancholic ennui of internet dating in Computer Love! Unglaublich. And, as alco said, this was all made without them actually having any computers of their own. Hard to find an album that not only predicts the future of music but also the future of human culture in under 40 minutes. I actually haven't really come across much art that achieves that.

 

Ok. I'm done. I could go on for pages and pages and pages but no one would care. In short. Kraftwerk. They're really good.

 

 

i could actually read a few more pages and want to address your post because it's extremely well written and thoughtful. i am humbled, honestly.

there isn't much i can say to it, as you've taken my ignorance and shown (shined, shone, wtf? sic) a light on it with history and context. however, i cannot listen to history and context. all i have is the music. so despite your informative, kind of amazing mini education on kraftwerk's place in music history, i still only can say this: cheesy as fuck.

don't let that bring you down though. it's pretty obvious that my posts in this thread, maybe most of my posts, are from a place of ignorance, of fear. i am only too happy when someone can blow them apart with knowledge.

my issue with kraftwerk, who now have my full respect thanks to dr. lopez, is really about how their music completely fails to move me. it does not engage my emotions. i enjoy other music that might come from a german tradition. gas is perhaps my favorite artist. pop is a masterpiece. what gas offers that kraftwerk does not is a glimpse of the sublime. it sheds any notions of art and cultural history and just is. no irony, no context. my favorite music works that way.

when i make a post like the ones in this thread, dismissive, swear word laden bullshit, realize that i make that post from an iphone, usually on a commute on the metro, absent mindedly staring out a window at dilapidated buildings, power lines and the reflection of a teenage girl and her folds of fat as she bends slightly to text someone. i am surrounded by technology and want to escape. i don't want to dwell on anything when i listen to electronic music. where kraftwerk just bring to mind the scenery before me, wolfgang voigt sets me free.

 

 

Thanks for reading. It's probably clear at this point that KW are a fairly serious obsession. They probably influenced my pursuit of German and German history in university more than anything. I was deeply frustrated at anglo-american press and I felt they never really thought (or cared) about Kraftwerk's (and Europe's) cultural identity crisis in Wirtschaftswunder Germany. I've certainly never read any writing on Kraftwerk that seems to analyze their work in a historical European cultural context. English press from the 70s (and still today) seems to only focus, and for understandable reasons, on their German-ness. "Cold" "calculating" "efficient" "sterile" are always words you'll read in an English press release, never making light of the dry humor like "ohm sweet ohm." After three albums of success in England and America, but with constant hounding about being robotic and *gasp* German, I can imagine Kraftwerk being fed up and wanting to beat the identity-makers at their own game. You want robotic? We'll be pretend robots! We'll be so robotic we'll make fake mannequins of ourselves and pose them for press shoots!

 

Cheesy yes. But intentionally so. But I digress. Zaphod what you said makes total sense to me. Pop is indeed a wonder that I return to often.. much like SAW II and other electronic music and for the exact same reasons you listed. In fact I really think my Kraftwerk obsession is more my chronic art history nerd-dom than the unique sublime escape of music. Pop and SAW II, Maurizio and Eno offer structures, environments, spaces for the listener to escape to and dwell in. They could seemingly exist and loop for eternity, the fade outs often seem arbitrary. That too is an incredibly powerful conceptual shift in music composition that I feel is almost exclusive to modern electronic music. Deeply moving. My Kraftwerk soapbox is more directed at cultural art studies... why the fuck are there hundreds of essays and books on Herzog and Fassbinder's treatment of post-war German life but not Kraftwerk's? In my mind, Kraftwerk's art is as sophisticated... and in some regards perhaps even more. Their great skill is to play it off as just a bit of silly fun with a pocket calculator rather than A FILM ABOUT DEATH AND MURDER IN DER JUNGLE lol

 

Anyway. Music. Opinions. WATMM.

[Amen Lare]

I'm surprised at praising music for its escapist value. Like fuck off with your reality, it's bullshit anyway. This is pretty close to japanese anime maniacs. Just don't stab me on the street, please.

[Guest zaphod]

lol, what? no one is saying that. i was saying some music offers a glimpse of the sublime and can be an escape rather than something to consider intellectually. you realize most people aren't stroking their chins trying to figure out how something fits in to music and cultural history, right?

what a weird fuckin post.

[Alcofribas]

pop is perhaps my favorite album as well, zaphod. just thought i'd let you know. i don't think that's gay of me. not that i'd have a problem with being gay in this instance or anything like that. i mean, maybe you're gay. fuck if i know.

[Guest zaphod]

i am not gay, but i am definitely in love with pop. this track is like making out with god.

 

[youtubehd]pt-bfSTP5DE[/youtubehd]

[kaini]

lopez' mention of the classically 'german' interpretation of history (the classically german 'feel', basically) is interesting to me; my brother has chosen this as his area of study. but the only interpretation of kraftwerk he has is 'my brother listens to weird electronic music'. he's never even heard of GAS.

[Guest lysdexic]

Think the value of the descriptors 'Awesome' and 'Sucks' have been miscalculated.