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FM Synthesis (techniques, anecdotes)
look into the abyss. look into it.

fm synth synthesis modulation

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#26 Antape

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 02:45 AM

Anyone already used a DX200 here? Never heard about this synth before and it looks nice.

 

After 3 years of owning a DX9 I'm starting to get more consistently into programming it and I feel frustrated about its limitations (the main one being the absence of velocity response ; bad MIDI implementation is also a problem).

 

Anyway everything seems to lead me towards purchasing a DX7 but I'm still looking for alternatives and this one looks nice.



#27 Guest_skibby_*

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 08:48 AM

i guess one thing that makes me still want a dx7 is the realtime parameter changing slider thing. does the tg77 let you do that too?

 

but yeah on the dx7 you can set the mod wheel to control stuff in each voice am i right?



#28 Mesh Gear Fox

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    not even going to read the thread lmao but check this out →

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 07:36 PM

i think the mod wheel affects the lfo level, and if you set the speed to 0 it acts as modulation amount.

antape, look at a dx21 or a dx100. they're a little better than a dx9 and cheaper than a dx7

also, look for a dx11 as it's a tx81z with a keyboard attached!

#29 Guest_skibby_*

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 07:42 PM

the hands down best video about how to use a dx7 i've seen.

 



#30 PhylumZunami

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 07:50 PM

This one time at FM synthesis camp I stuck a carrier wave up my operator.



#31 sweepstakes

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 07:54 PM

I still like firing up my TX81Z occasionally but I think software's the way to go for this one. Especially modular where you can wire it up however you want and don't have to deal with some goofy interface. Y'all might have more free time than me though.



#32 Mesh Gear Fox

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    not even going to read the thread lmao but check this out →

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 11:53 PM

you can program the tx81z via computer, and imo it sounds better than most software

#33 John Ehrlichman

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 12:36 AM

Anyone already used a DX200 here? Never heard about this synth before and it looks nice.

 

After 3 years of owning a DX9 I'm starting to get more consistently into programming it and I feel frustrated about its limitations (the main one being the absence of velocity response ; bad MIDI implementation is also a problem).

 

Anyway everything seems to lead me towards purchasing a DX7 but I'm still looking for alternatives and this one looks nice.

I have a Dx200, it's a great little machine. It's main strength is it being a groovebox and being probably the most editable Yamaha FM synth ever with the knobs on the front panel . Don't get your hopes up too high though because editing it 'deeply' is actually harder than other yamaha units. Also I'm not sure if there is a software editor for it out there unless you find the one for Windows 98.


for me personally I love the FB01, it's the closest Yamaha synth besides the music computer that actually resembles lofi gritty arcade/sega type sounds.  The software editing isn't too hard and making kick drums on it is really nice. Also can be found for $20-70 used



#34 telefunken

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 01:12 AM

PreenFM2 if you don't afraid of soldering and stuff (it's easy to do btw). It has one of the easiest interfaces to program FM + it now has kinda flexible patch randomizer, multimode filter, arpeggiators and vast mod matrix

http://ixox.fr/preenfm2/



#35 John Ehrlichman

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 01:20 AM

edits: whoops confusing it with the sammichFM. I need to lake a closer look at PreenFK, this also uses the Olp3 chip?

 


Edited by John Ehrlichman, 29 October 2014 - 01:21 AM.


#36 telefunken

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 02:17 AM

 this also uses the Opl3 chip?

 

 

Nope. It uses it's own PreenF405 processor (remade CERB40). Also PFM2 is not really yamaha's FM (which is actually is PM).
 



#37 Mesh Gear Fox

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    not even going to read the thread lmao but check this out →

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 06:32 AM

heard good things about preen. mainly from other watmmers, and we can be a tough crowd.

is there much difference between fm and pm in terms of sound? the same principles of modulations, sidebands etc apply, yes?

#38 Antape

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 07:41 AM

Wow that's some serious french accent in that preenfm2 video on the official website, it made it hard for me to concentrate! I don't really have time to watch now but it looks like a nice DIY project. I'm not afraid of soldering and I'd be glad to support such a "home-made" project if the synth happens to suit what I'm after.

 

I kind of missed it but the DX11 looks like a good option for me, thanks to point it out Mesh Gear Fox. I'd have another question for those of you who already compared 4-OP and 6-OP FM synths : how big is the difference? Is 4-OP a big limitation when you're used to 6-OP? For me FM is still a kind of unknown land where a lot of surprises can show up so I still have a lot to learn with 4-OP, but once you get more familiar with FM, do you feel frustrated about having just four operators?

 

Another one : I more or less just now FM with sine waves. Is it a big plus to have other waveforms to use for modulation?

 

And the last question goes to John "honest-man" : what do you mean when you say that DX200 is harder to "deeply" program as other Yamaha FM units? I just saw a couple of videos yesterday and have no idea how you program it really but it seems more user-friendly. Though, I asked myself if it provides the same amount of control as say a DX7 where you can tweak really a lot of stuff for each operator.

 

Loving this thread right now, thanks guys!



#39 Mesh Gear Fox

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 08:00 AM

happy to help :)

personally i think 4op fm provides plenty of possibilities even without the extra waveforms, so the dx11 will be a good move. plus ae and mike p have made plenty of use of em. i think it's right to say that the best waveforms for fm aren't full on saws and squares but more like shaped sines. think rectified, parabolic or half-period sine waves. i assume this is partly why yamaha included them as extra wave shapes and not more traditional ones instead.

also if you can grab one, a yamaha sy77 is a really powerful fm synth from the late 80's that can be picked up for around the same price as a dx7 if you're lucky.

i guess if you had the choice between a dx11 and a dx7 i'd say go for the dx11, but it's a tough call. dx7 would probably be better at pads and being more moody and dark. if the dx11 sounds like my tx81z which it's based off, it'll be very clean and bright compared to the dx7

but a sy77 trumps all, it's debatable if you should just go for fm8 at this point though. not sure of the prices in your area either but good luck!

ps there are a few free sample packs of my tx on my mgf audio bandcamp, check my sig!

Edited by Mesh Gear Fox, 29 October 2014 - 08:02 AM.


#40 telefunken

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 08:44 AM

is there much difference between fm and pm in terms of sound? the same principles of modulations, sidebands etc apply, yes?

 

Same principles except feedback. PFM2 can't do this because of dc-offset. For example Blofeld can't do this too, if you'll set osc to modulate itself you'll get unstable pitch at first, and rather chaotic results if you gonna go further.



#41 telefunken

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 08:51 AM

http://clyp.it/lpgocohn

PFM2 (percussion etc) + TX81z (sub) and Blofeld (high pitched phrase with delay)



#42 Mesh Gear Fox

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    not even going to read the thread lmao but check this out →

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 08:52 AM

is there much difference between fm and pm in terms of sound? the same principles of modulations, sidebands etc apply, yes?

 
Same principles except feedback. PFM2 can't do this because of dc-offset. For example Blofeld can't do this too, if you'll set osc to modulate itself you'll get unstable pitch at first, and rather chaotic results if you gonna go further.
ah thanks for this! explains a lot of dead ends i hit in max before i tried phase modulation

#43 mcbpete

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 08:53 AM

the hands down best video about how to use a dx7 i've seen.
 

That's a great video, not just for the DX7 but for FM theory in general. Thanks for the link man :)

#44 John Ehrlichman

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 02:04 PM

 

 

And the last question goes to John "honest-man" : what do you mean when you say that DX200 is harder to "deeply" program as other Yamaha FM units? I just saw a couple of videos yesterday and have no idea how you program it really but it seems more user-friendly. Though, I asked myself if it provides the same amount of control as say a DX7 where you can tweak really a lot of stuff for each operator.

i should have been more honest, the DX200 can't really be 'programmed'  like a Dx7 as far as i understand (i dont own one so i cant be sure) so in a way its more of a very tweakable preset machine, where just by using the front panel knobs and switches (like algorithm choices, FM envelope, FM depth, harmonic, etc) you can essentially make your own patch. It is also the only groovebox/sequencer + fm combo that I know of besides the monomachine (someone please correct me if im wrong) 


Edited by John Ehrlichman, 29 October 2014 - 02:05 PM.


#45 John Ehrlichman

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 02:28 PM

happy to help :)

personally i think 4op fm provides plenty of possibilities even without the extra waveforms, so the dx11 will be a good move. plus ae and mike p have made plenty of use of em. i think it's right to say that the best waveforms for fm aren't full on saws and squares but more like shaped sines. think rectified, parabolic or half-period sine waves. i assume this is partly why yamaha included them as extra wave shapes and not more traditional ones instead.

also if you can grab one, a yamaha sy77 is a really powerful fm synth from the late 80's that can be picked up for around the same price as a dx7 if you're lucky.

i guess if you had the choice between a dx11 and a dx7 i'd say go for the dx11, but it's a tough call. dx7 would probably be better at pads and being more moody and dark. if the dx11 sounds like my tx81z which it's based off, it'll be very clean and bright compared to the dx7

but a sy77 trumps all, it's debatable if you should just go for fm8 at this point though. not sure of the prices in your area either but good luck!

ps there are a few free sample packs of my tx on my mgf audio bandcamp, check my sig!

isn't the tg77 the one that trumps all before the FS1r? or did you just mean trumps all the ones you previously mentioned

nevermind the Tg77 is just a rack sy77 


Edited by John Ehrlichman, 29 October 2014 - 02:28 PM.


#46 John Ehrlichman

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 04:41 PM

I'm going to start another thread cataloging all FM hardware (and maybe software too?) I'll set aside the modular stuff for another time. Anyone want to help? It seems like some other people in this thread have a greater understanding of the Yamaha series 



#47 Mesh Gear Fox

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    not even going to read the thread lmao but check this out →

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 05:53 PM

yeah the tg/sy77 was the fs1r before the fs1r.

keen on this thread idea! let's get it going

Edited by Mesh Gear Fox, 29 October 2014 - 05:54 PM.


#48 Guest_skibby_*

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 07:39 PM

i just crashed my fb01 and had to reboot it.  the tx81z gets midi buffer overflow errors.  anybody else have hardware fm synth anecdotes like that?



#49 Guest_chunky_*

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 07:47 PM

yamaha tg 77
100pounds
very.good.
pm me some editing software plz
share some patches with each other?

awm can do subtractive synthesis and drums
fm can do a lot too

thought the awm would be poor but it has some good.uses. shame the pitch.eg for that is only.two octaves.

effects are tasteful

deep machine, very deep
full of potential

#50 Guest_skibby_*

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 08:01 PM

yeah i cant wait to dig into my tg77, you got such a good deal, i paid like twice that.







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: fm, synth, synthesis, modulation