I am now convinced that capitalism is evil

[goDel]

Just out of curiosity: socialism a political philosophy, right? Like conservatism and liberalism. And capitalism not so much, right? Could be me, but capitalism in itself is a-political and a-moral. Right? There's no "socialism is the opposite of capitalism", right? Or am I missing something.

[Candiru]

I hereby declare Fapitalism.

[goDel]

 

 

[azatoth]

Just out of curiosity: socialism a political philosophy, right? Like conservatism and liberalism. And capitalism not so much, right? Could be me, but capitalism in itself is a-political and a-moral. Right? There's no "socialism is the opposite of capitalism", right? Or am I missing something.

 

Capitalism might be apolitical and amoral and just an economic system, but it's still comes with a lot of ideological baggage in modern discourse. However I don't think any economic system can be viewed without ideology. There are consequences to what kind of economic system is implemented and used, which are ethical and political in nature.

[goDel]

Would you agree that socialism and capitalism aren't mutually exclusive? The two can coexist perfectly fine, imo.

[goDel]

Here:

 

 

conclusion: this thread is very christian-like for a bunch of self-proclaimed atheists

 

[doublename]

Radical xianity.

[auxien]

twitter thread: 

 

[Wunderbar]

Politics really just feels like a game of tag but for adults.

[drillkicker]

Capitalism is only "evil" in the sense that it's the enemy of humanity.  But that alone doesn't make it evil.  The reason why is because Capital is so powerful that it has risen above morality and even found a way to disguise its devastation to the worker-consumer (desiring-machine).  Morality today is one of the most deterritorialized, flexible tools that Capital uses in order to build itself from our elapsed labor-value, and eventually even this purpose will deteriorate (once capitalism qua capitalism — Capital in its purest, asignifying manifestation — has actualized itself).

[Amen Lare]

49 minutes ago, auxien said:

twitter thread: 

Reasons why capitalism bad: 1. twitter threads

11 minutes ago, Wunderbar said:

Politics really just feels like a game of tag but for adults.

(c) Arthur Schopenhauer. Isn't the discussion about economics though?

"Economics really just feels like a game of tag but for adults". Still works!

2 minutes ago, drillkicker said:

Capitalism is only "evil" in the sense that it's the enemy of humanity.  But that alone doesn't make it evil.  The reason why is because Capital is so powerful that it has risen above morality and even found a way to disguise its devastation to the worker-consumer (desiring-machine).  Morality today is one of the most deterritorialized, flexible tools that Capital uses in order to build itself from our elapsed labor-value, and eventually even this purpose will deteriorate (once capitalism qua capitalism — Capital in its purest, asignifying manifestation — has actualized itself).

Merci monsieur, see lads: capitalism is not evil because it found a way to disguise its devastation to the desiring machines like us. The enemy of humanité? Not a big deal. Anyway, it's so powerful it doesn't care about your twitter threads.

[zlemflolia]

1 hour ago, drillkicker said:

Capitalism is only "evil" in the sense that it's the enemy of humanity.  But that alone doesn't make it evil.  The reason why is because Capital is so powerful that it has risen above morality and even found a way to disguise its devastation to the worker-consumer (desiring-machine).  Morality today is one of the most deterritorialized, flexible tools that Capital uses in order to build itself from our elapsed labor-value, and eventually even this purpose will deteriorate (once capitalism qua capitalism — Capital in its purest, asignifying manifestation — has actualized itself).

when AI arises and increases its self actualization more and more, it will not be an evil entity waking up and wishing to take over humanity like in terminator movies.  it will be a slow process where its veins, arteries, and nerves are distributed across many industries.  the product of alienated labor renders capital, existing "opposite and in opposition to" the workers as Marx said.  This is the essence of capital materializing for capital's sake and taking within it its own will.  What the workers put into it, a sacrifice of will, materializes within it the will of capital as its own.  In this way the owning and working class are equally at the mercy of capital. 

The cybernetic system being created is and will continue to become (unless of course we achieve socialism and communism) a more and more supreme self actualizing system out of the hands of any individual. because that is what worker control means, the workers having control over the production process, over the capital.  the workers manning the ports, transportation ways, input and output systems, and information transfer systems that comprise the body of this unholy machine we are being forced to worship, and being allowed to act according to their own will

and when it has actualized itself to these degrees more and more, indeed its asignifying nature one more reminiscent of a paperclip maximizer than a terminator, will be the death of the human soul, the soul we have been intentionally alienated from by those who simply sit around and act as if things are okay and neoliberal capitalism and imperialism can, will, and should merely continue, this beast having no reigns with which humanity can tame it any longer, as the proletariat puts the control, the decisionmaking power, not into their own majority hands, those who mine the shafts and dig the irrigation canals, those who are the only ones with the power to destroy it, but into those abstracted away into the control centers, the owning class, themselves alienating their spirit into nothing more than the spirit and literal brain of the very machine they themselves want to bring about, because they hold in their hearts malice so deep they would gladly let the proletariat suffer, as they knowingly and willingly bring this suffering to us now and for the foreseeable future, for their own game

this vast scene, more apocalyptic than anything foretold the popular media of our days, should make us weep and immediately demand power over capital, demand workplace democracy, demand socialism, demand communism, and end the unholy filth of labor for the bourgeoisie, surplus labor value provided to capital, capital built more and more for more capital, capital each day added to Capital, and eventually Capital for itself and us for Capital.  How anyone can not be a communist is so beyond me that their lack of vision makes me sickened to my stomach

Edited September 8, 2021 by ilqx hermolia xpli

[drillkicker]

11 minutes ago, Amen Lare said:

Merci monsieur, see lads: capitalism is not evil because it found a way to disguise its devastation to the desiring machines like us. The enemy of humanité? Not a big deal. Anyway, it's so powerful it doesn't care about your twitter threads.

Don't you see that Twitter threads are capitalism?  Twitter is a proprietary platform that exists as a machine with which Capital can contain a hyperintensive cybernetic overcoding of semiology, advancing its own reterritorialization of language at a pace far beyond what anyone can critique.  Speaking on a proprietary platform is not the same as speaking openly in the physical air.  Once you have adopted the expressive worldspace of capitalistic cybernetics you have adopted the faciality of a deterritorialized schizo-voice.

[zlemflolia]

2 minutes ago, drillkicker said:

deterritorialized schizo-voice

the true name of the internet

[drillkicker]

12 minutes ago, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

when AI arises and increases its self actualization more and more, it will not be an evil entity waking up and wishing to take over humanity like in terminator movies.  it will be a slow process where its veins, arteries, and nerves are distributed across many industries.  the product of alienated labor renders capital, existing "opposite and in opposition to" the workers as Marx said.  This is the essence of capital materializing for capital's sake and taking within it its own will.  What the workers put into it, a sacrifice of will, materializes within it the will of capital as its own.  In this way the owning and working class are equally at the mercy of capital. 

The cybernetic system being created is and will continue to become (unless of course we achieve socialism and communism) a more and more supreme self actualizing system out of the hands of any individual. because that is what worker control means, the workers having control over the production process, over the capital.  the workers manning the ports, transportation ways, input and output systems, and information transfer systems that comprise the body of this unholy machine we are being forced to worship, and being allowed to act according to their own will

and when it has actualized itself to these degrees more and more, indeed its asignifying nature one more reminiscent of a paperclip maximizer than a terminator, will be the death of the human soul, the soul we have been intentionally alienated from by those who simply sit around and act as if things are okay and neoliberal capitalism and imperialism can, will, and should merely continue, this beast having no reigns with which humanity can tame it any longer, as the proletariat puts the control, the decisionmaking power, not into their own majority hands, those who mine the shafts and dig the irrigation canals, those who are the only ones with the power to destroy it, but into those abstracted away into the control centers, the owning class, themselves alienating their spirit into nothing more than the spirit and literal brain of the very machine they themselves want to bring about, because they hold in their hearts malice so deep they would gladly let the proletariat suffer, as they knowingly and willingly bring this suffering to us now and for the foreseeable future, for their own game

this vast scene, more apocalyptic than anything foretold the popular media of our days, should make us weep and immediately demand power over capital, demand workplace democracy, demand socialism, demand communism, and end the unholy filth of labor for the bourgeoisie, surplus labor value provided to capital, capital built more and more for more capital, capital each day added to Capital, and eventually Capital for itself and us for Capital.  How anyone can not be a communist is so beyond me that their lack of vision makes me sickened to my stomach

I'd be interested in reading your response to this old article by Jehu.  Personally, I'm unconvinced of the viability of an anarcho-communist future in our current stage.  At best, it would necessitate a gradual reappropriation of capitalistic use-values and division of labor but also a massive (no, even more massive) molecular revolution of semiological assemblages.  This would be the K-punk modality of communism as I understand it (also certainly the Deleuzo-Guattarian).  Without these, I see no hope for a successful eternal return of a communist event.  Oedipal semiological structures would resurrect capitalistic intensities and infect the commune, and the old enemy would reappear.

[zlemflolia]

@drillkicker

The idea that increased privatization and the transformation of exchange relations more and more towards commodification of every aspect of reality will accelerate the internal contradictions of capitalism and bring about a way of travelling to what lies after it sooner is in my opinion not accurate.  It assumes privatization drives the expansion of capital when it's really excess labor value appropriation in a form redirected towards those future forms of labor which are more capable of further repeating the process of excess labor value appropriation, which means enhancing the capabilities of the means of production itself to the point where a mere switch can be flicked and from that single human action immense surplus labor value is harnessed by the owners of the means of production, capable of producing further means of production.  In other words, a paperclip maximizer

This ideology pushes towards catastrophic destruction of the organic substrate we live on when viewed from an ecological perspective, and deeper human and animal slavery from our own perspective.  But the bourgeoisie will end up enslaved with us, because our enslavement will fetter us so deeply that we no longer provide value to them as servants, as there is simply nothing left to drive their psychological desire to expand, no goals left which actually make sense

Unless capital expansion exists in a homeostasis with the ecology of the Earth there will be no surplus labor value left to be enjoyed by even bourgeois culture, no matter how advanced the environmental regulation systems are in their bunkers.  All of this assumes a very idealized infinite timeline of development and ignores the epochal realities imposed upon us by the environment itself.  We have turned the relations of production and the organization of all of human society into a game of numbers

The bourgeoisie feels a spark of joy when they see a 21% gain in the value of their capital in a year.  But it's not actually leading towards anything which will help achieve communism.  Anarcho-communism has no practical meaning as an end state and rather only a meaning as a means of achieving the end-state of communism.  There is no method of achieving communism except that method which is actually capable of achieving it, which anarcho-communism is not.  That is, through the creation of a dictatorship of the proletariat

The proletariat is significantly more intelligent than the bourgeoisie in all areas of industry and will be more than capable of achieving communism once they are awakened.

Edited September 8, 2021 by ilqx hermolia xpli

[auxien]

2 hours ago, Amen Lare said:

Reasons why capitalism bad: 1. twitter threads

that one was pretty informative and succinct, so i'll allow it. this time.

[brian trageskin]

6 hours ago, drillkicker said:

a massive (no, even more massive) molecular revolution of semiological assemblages.  

6 hours ago, drillkicker said:

Oedipal semiological structures would resurrect capitalistic intensities 

please explain to an inferior intellect what you mean by that.

[ooqpoo]

All I know is that the ones who bask in it, strive for it and succeed in it are ones I would 'much rather kick in the eye' the rest who calmy abide with it, like you put up with the shenanigans of a boisterous child are alright in my book. 

[beerwolf]

Read this page this morning, dehydrated and before showering, before eating breakfast and drinking coffee. Felt like I needed a brain transplant. I have now had my hot shower and shave, I have drank my blueberry, apple, banana and soy milk smoothie and a strong cup of coffee and feel perfectly hydrated with Scottish mineral water. I still need a brain transplant. Come here fishy!!

[milkface]

13 hours ago, drillkicker said:

Capitalism is only "evil" in the sense that it's the enemy of humanity.  But that alone doesn't make it evil.  The reason why is because Capital is so powerful that it has risen above morality and even found a way to disguise its devastation to the worker-consumer (desiring-machine).  Morality today is one of the most deterritorialized, flexible tools that Capital uses in order to build itself from our elapsed labor-value, and eventually even this purpose will deteriorate (once capitalism qua capitalism — Capital in its purest, asignifying manifestation — has actualized itself).

this is why philosophy is fucking dumb please live in the real world and stop using big words mate 25,000 people are starving every day

[chronical]

10 hours ago, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

@drillkicker

The idea that increased privatization and the transformation of exchange relations more and more towards commodification of every aspect of reality will accelerate the internal contradictions of capitalism and bring about a way of travelling to what lies after it sooner is in my opinion not accurate.  It assumes privatization drives the expansion of capital when it's really excess labor value appropriation in a form redirected towards those future forms of labor which are more capable of further repeating the process of excess labor value appropriation, which means enhancing the capabilities of the means of production itself to the point where a mere switch can be flicked and from that single human action immense surplus labor value is harnessed by the owners of the means of production, capable of producing further means of production.  In other words, a paperclip maximizer.  This ideology pushes towards catastrophic destruction of the organic substrate we live on when viewed from an ecological perspective, and deeper human and animal slavery from our own perspective.  But the bourgeoisie will end up enslaved with us, because our enslavement will fetter us so deeply that we no longer provide value to them as servants, as there is simply nothing left to drive their psychological desire to expand, no goals left which actually make sense.  Unless capital expansion exists in a homeostasis with the ecology of the Earth there will be no surplus labor value left to be enjoyed by even bourgeois culture, no matter how advanced the environmental regulation systems are in their bunkers.  All of this assumes a very idealized infinite timeline of development and ignores the epochal realities imposed upon us by the environment itself.  We have turned the relations of production and the organization of all of human society into a game of numbers.  The bourgeoisie feels a spark of joy when they see a 21% gain in the value of their capital in a year.  But it's not actually leading towards anything which will help achieve communism.  Anarcho-communism has no practical meaning as an end state and rather only a meaning as a means of achieving the end-state of communism.  There is no method of achieving communism except that method which is actually capable of achieving it, which anarcho-communism is not.  That is, through the creation of a dictatorship of the proletariat.  The proletariat is significantly more intelligent than the bourgeoisie in all areas of industry and will be more than capable of achieving communism once they are awakened.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraph

[brian trageskin]

[drillkicker]

19 hours ago, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

@drillkicker

The idea that increased privatization and the transformation of exchange relations more and more towards commodification of every aspect of reality will accelerate the internal contradictions of capitalism and bring about a way of travelling to what lies after it sooner is in my opinion not accurate.  It assumes privatization drives the expansion of capital when it's really excess labor value appropriation in a form redirected towards those future forms of labor which are more capable of further repeating the process of excess labor value appropriation, which means enhancing the capabilities of the means of production itself to the point where a mere switch can be flicked and from that single human action immense surplus labor value is harnessed by the owners of the means of production, capable of producing further means of production.  In other words, a paperclip maximizer

This ideology pushes towards catastrophic destruction of the organic substrate we live on when viewed from an ecological perspective, and deeper human and animal slavery from our own perspective.  But the bourgeoisie will end up enslaved with us, because our enslavement will fetter us so deeply that we no longer provide value to them as servants, as there is simply nothing left to drive their psychological desire to expand, no goals left which actually make sense

Unless capital expansion exists in a homeostasis with the ecology of the Earth there will be no surplus labor value left to be enjoyed by even bourgeois culture, no matter how advanced the environmental regulation systems are in their bunkers.  All of this assumes a very idealized infinite timeline of development and ignores the epochal realities imposed upon us by the environment itself.  We have turned the relations of production and the organization of all of human society into a game of numbers

The bourgeoisie feels a spark of joy when they see a 21% gain in the value of their capital in a year.  But it's not actually leading towards anything which will help achieve communism.  Anarcho-communism has no practical meaning as an end state and rather only a meaning as a means of achieving the end-state of communism.  There is no method of achieving communism except that method which is actually capable of achieving it, which anarcho-communism is not.  That is, through the creation of a dictatorship of the proletariat

The proletariat is significantly more intelligent than the bourgeoisie in all areas of industry and will be more than capable of achieving communism once they are awakened.

Ok but what about the article?  I understand that you envision some transition into a dictatorial communist ecosystem, but where would it come from?  What kinds of intensities are extant that would allow for this?  Capital is more pervasive now than at any point ever before and it hasn't indicated that it's capable of introducing any kind of negative feedback into its process.  I'm not concerned here with what should happen, but with what will happen.

14 hours ago, brian trageskin said:

please explain to an inferior intellect what you mean by that.

By semiological assemblages I mean the crystallized forms through which expression and communication happens through signifiers.  For example, currency as a signifier of Capital and buying power.  As a material alone, currency is almost entirely useless, but as a signifier it equates to power.  This isn't imaginary, it's a real semiological relationship that affects the world just as concretely as gravity.  These structures are upheld by the unconscious processes of their respective social ecosystems.  They constantly change in a machine-like way over time, through intensive forces that displace (or deterritorialize) signifiers and attach them to different signified/referent couplings.

Among the different modes of transformation are molecular revolutions, or internal shifts away from a certain semiological foundation to a new central structure entirely.  A good and well known example might be the Protestant Reformation.

Since there are still capitalistic semiological assemblages in place that are enforced through things like repressive schooling and currency, a molecular revolution would be a necessary requirement of a political structure that seeks to quash capitalistic movement.

The even bigger problem is that capitalism isn't dependent on a specific semiology, but is itself a force of transformation within assemblages.  A repressive structure that hopes to throttle Capital would somehow need to prevent a capitalistic cybernetics from infiltrating.  I don't have any vision of what this would look like.

8 hours ago, milkface said:

this is why philosophy is fucking dumb please live in the real world and stop using big words mate 25,000 people are starving every day

If you didn't want to participate in the discussion, then why bother posting?

[beerwolf]

I’ve got a mate who’s ultra left and some kind of Anti Capitalism Anarchist Warlord. You know why? Because he’s really fucking intelligent and extremely artistic but because he’s a massive underachiever (for reasons I’m not comfortable in explaining because he’s a friend of mine) and makes sandwiches in a factory he’s well fucking angry with life.