goDel Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 This is now a political thread. discuss.. To be fair though, I just came across this article about some GOP dude who saw the light and became liberal. http://www.salon.com/2014/07/16/i_was_poor_but_a_gop_die_hard_how_i_finally_left_the_politics_of_shame/ The people who most support the Republicans and the Tea Party carry a secret burden. Many know that they are one medical emergency or broken down car away from ruin, and they blame the government. They vote against their own interests, often hurting themselves in concrete ways, in a vain attempt to deal with their own, misguided shame about being poor. They believe “freedom” is the answer, even though they live a form of wage indenture in a rigged system. Interesting to read about the mindset of a pisspoor GOP voter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audioblysk Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 It's a harsh reality. On a somewhat related note, the video below is one of the best explanations of the complete lunacy of some folks when it comes to the wealth gap I've seen put into digestable form for the regular American. you brits are so cheeky (not you GoDel, I know you're not British, nothing cheeky about you- you massive cunt ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshuatxuk Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Interesting article, very reasonable and honest guy. I can relate to him greatly - I had a fling of being more libertarian and then a fairly cynical libertarian conservative during the Obama campaign in 2007-2008. Before that I had been very liberal, something that occurred in 2003 when I bucked against my moderate conservative upbringing. I was paying for school, working two part-time jobs, and finding it frustrating that my peers were either supported by their parents and/or living off student loans. A lot of Obama supporters where extremely uninformed and naive. The whole campaign was insanely smug and often frustrating. I actually was late once to my job because so many college students - ones who were loudly boasting it was their first time on a public bus - were trying to see Obama downtown. I voted for McCain almost more out of a contrarian statement than my pragmatic reasons. I regretted it soley because Palin was also on the ticket. I voted Obama in 2012 and feel disappointed as well, because he's not remotely progressive or liberal enough. Kerry in 2004 was the only presidential candidate I don't 100% regret voting for, but even that in hindsight wouldn't have done much. I will probably never vote GOP or DEM again for the presidential ticket. Our whole political system is insanely corrupt and misleading. The few good politicians in office can't accomplish much and are perpetually towing the line to stay in office. Many of the conservative friends and family I know are actually less and less angry and visceral than they were a few years ago, and even agree with me on a lot of things, but they still STILL vote Republican. It's absurd. I have to just kind of laugh it off. We're living in a perpetual Simpsons episode. http://youtu.be/rAT_BuJAI70 Homer: Not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol must be working like a charm. Lisa: That’s specious reasoning, Dad. Homer: Thank you, dear. Lisa: By your logic I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away. Homer: Oh, how does it work? Lisa: It doesn’t work. Homer: Uh-huh. Lisa: It’s just a stupid rock. Homer: Uh-huh. Lisa: But I don’t see any tigers around, do you? [Homer thinks of this, then pulls out some money] Homer: Lisa, I want to buy your rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhylumZunami Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 you guys know that the earth is going to explode in 2 years they had a article on yahoo.com if u don't believe me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambermonk Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Yes, I saw the symbolism in Elysium. A warning in advance that I'm drunk - god damn plutocrats taking capitalism to the extreme (more than IDM) and rigging the system in their favor, and giving a fuck all about the citizens below the poverty line. I bet corporations hold the de facto power over the US government. I probably don't even make sense right now. If Compson were still here he'd be hijacking this muthafucka with his quote boxes. I will probably never vote GOP or DEM again for the presidential ticket. You know damn well I won't either, bruvI'm thinking about putting on coffer to sober up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goDel Posted July 17, 2014 Author Share Posted July 17, 2014 you guys know that the earth is going to explode in 2 years they had a article on yahoo.com if u don't believe me Yes, and this thread will be one of this worlds achievements! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delet... Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 It's a harsh reality. On a somewhat related note, the video below is one of the best explanations of the complete lunacy of some folks when it comes to the wealth gap I've seen put into digestable form for the regular American. you brits are so cheeky (not you GoDel, I know you're not British, nothing cheeky about you- you massive cunt ) i was wondering how long it would take for this guy to disappoint me in the segment. And then he spent most of the time detailing the solution to income inequality as being the introduction of an estate tax.rather than the obvious and proven one of raising wages. The estate tax destroyed england's landed gentry and forced their land hoarded for generations to be redistributed sure (to those that could afford to buy it, not those that had lived and worked on the land centuries before the noble showed up there through grace or favour). But it didn't dismantle the wealth of the banking elite, the new nobility. I think the idea of an across the board (because this is who will mainly by hit by the introduction of such a thing) estate tax is fundamentally unfair. You already paid taxes on the income you scrimped and saved, the government can fuck right off if they want to double dip. It's pretty clear why the didn't spend the segment on wealth redistribution through an increase in incomes for the bottom 90%, (and this would be an inheritance tax on the rich anyway). It's because this is the solution that works and the one that the greedy elite fear the most, so they distract the hoy poly with 'look over here, if only you had this thing, lobbied for and got angry over this thing, magically you'll be wealthy' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterE Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 well i think folks should reconsider not voting. let me tell yall bout a candidate on the horizon. shes not even barely mega well off at all at only a few tens of millions and a paltry two mansions and only almost $3,000 per minute speaking fee. sure she and her husband dodge the very estate tax they claimed to support, but with the likes of google founders and walmart CEOs funneling money into her and her husband's foundation, there's nothing to worry about. we'll all be taken care of. none of us will have to work again. when she gets in there, the truly mega rich will finally pay their fair share, and we can all sit around smoking weed all day every day, sniffing pills, and playing nintendo 64, which is our right (srsly its in the constitution, look it up. page 9). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcofribas Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Yes, I saw the symbolism in Elysium. A warning in advance that I'm drunk - god damn plutocrats taking capitalism to the extreme (more than IDM) I love the idea of judging the severity of situations based on how extreme they are compared to idm. beautiful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
may be rude Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 the solution is pineapples Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LimpyLoo Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 when she gets in there, the truly mega rich will finally pay their fair share, and we can all sit around smoking weed all day every day, sniffing pills, and playing nintendo 64, which is our right (srsly its in the constitution, look it up. page 9). Of course I know you're taking the piss (as you are wont to do) but the issue isn't so much that rich don't pay enough taxes, it's that America is designed to disproportionately favor the already rich. People on the right bemoan how much welfare is a 'drain on the system' but I rarely hear them take issue with corporate subsidies (which costs the average taxpayer about twice as much). In fact, I hardly ever hear any corporate criticism coming from the right. Rather, they oppose minimum wage hikes and healthcare and anything that would offset the growing wage gap (which btw has nothing to do with rich people working harder). I think the myth of the American Dream needs to die. It seems to make people think that everyone deserve their current situation (good or bad), that there is a 1-to-1 correlation between hard work and success, and that poor people are simply jealous of rich people and want to take their money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vamos scorcho Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Tea partiers believe in the free market. Socialized health care, to them, is wrong. Saying that they are stupid for being against it because it might bankrupt them is a poor argument. When you use poor arguments to support an idea, it discredits that idea, fails to convince the opposing side, and shits up the waters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vamos scorcho Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Salon is an affront to liberalism. I would say it's the worst website on the entire internet and is worse than Fox News in that it hurts liberals more than the GOP ever could simply by cheapening ideology and relying on gut tactic bullshit to garner clicks and to appeal to the egos of its readers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LimpyLoo Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Tea partiers believe in the free market. Socialized health care, to them, is wrong. Saying that they are stupid for being against it because it might bankrupt them is a poor argument. When you use poor arguments to support an idea, it discredits that idea, fails to convince the opposing side, and shits up the waters. Who is saying they are stupid for that specific reason? The free market is insanity. Imagine lifting all regulation... eventually there would one single mega-corporation that mega-corporation would be far more powerful than the government the minimum wage would be like $0.35 we'd all live in a giant Neuromancer-esque ghetto most of us would die from the completely unregulated food and goods we'd have an extreme caste system of ultra-rich and ultra-poor it would be a horrible horrible nightmare luckily we've never had nor will ever have a 'free market' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Member Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I'm pretty unhappy with the situation in Palestine. That's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goDel Posted July 17, 2014 Author Share Posted July 17, 2014 At least say Palestine AND Israel! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vamos scorcho Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 From the OP's quotation of the article: "The people who most support the Republicans and the Tea Party carry a secret burden. Many know that they are one medical emergency or broken down car away from ruin, and they blame the government. They vote against their own interests, often hurting themselves in concrete ways, in a vain attempt to deal with their own, misguided shame about being poor. They believe “freedom” is the answer, even though they live a form of wage indenture in a rigged system." The idea here is that poor people are so stupid that they can't possibly be voting "against their interests" for any reason other than ignorance/shame. The writer hates "poor people" (southern white trash) and can't conceive of the possibility that many of them are content where they are. The writer thinks he knows what these "poor people" want. So, ironically, he is probably the one most ashamed of himself for ever associating with those people. This common and trendy conformist liberal hatred and prejudice against "the poor" says that Tea Partiers (white trash) are too stupid to actually know anything about economics/politics and are just mislead or driven by "shame." It is unwilling to conceive of an actual position. Actually, many of them have their own views and do not believe in welfare or other common left solutions ...for reasons which may or may not be valid. I believe, personally, in reading all sides of an argument and trying to understand the positions. I don't have the answers though I tend to find stupid liberals more irritating than stupid conservatives these days, maybe just because more people seem to be identifying with liberalism? Actually I am pretty much a contrarian. I might be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goDel Posted July 17, 2014 Author Share Posted July 17, 2014 Perhaps you should read the entire article instead of just the quote? He wrote mostly from his personal story. And yes, he argues that it can be generalized to a broader extent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshuatxuk Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Tea partiers believe in the free market. Socialized health care, to them, is wrong. Saying that they are stupid for being against it because it might bankrupt them is a poor argument. When you use poor arguments to support an idea, it discredits that idea, fails to convince the opposing side, and shits up the waters. Some "Tea Party" members believe that. Many also rallied against Obamacare because the GOP told them it would bankrupt Social Security and Medicare, two of the biggest and most inefficient government welfare programs in existence. I actually went to a Tea Party rally in early 2009. It was an interesting crowd - local libertarians, some Republican asshats, Ron Paul supports, infowars fans, friendly conservative leaning people. The focus was on national debt and the problems of our vast federal bureaucracy. Fast-forward a year later and most "tea party" rallies were old, angry, white crowds. It was a subtle change on the surface but a huge shift for many more sincere libertarians and anti-tax activists who were part of the initial movement. I personally avoid lumping anyone into the "Tea Party" descriptor for many reasons: it's been completely co-opted by the GOP and their lobbyists (there are "Tea Party" PACs and many self-billed Tea Party groups apply for 501c(4) TAX EXCEPTIONS. These groups regularly lobby for, support, defend, and apologize for de-regulation of corporations, subsidies and tax exemptions for businesses, and have no qualms with unlimited election funds. That's the complete antithesis of free market ethos. GOP leaders and lobbyists like Joe Demint and Dick Army, talk radio personalities like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity, people who have been in office or influencial for decades, became leaders in the "movement." Tea Party groups literally starting injecting social conservatism back into the agenda, and as a result the huge sweep the GOP had with Tea Party candidates gave us not tax cuts or tax reforms but anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-education, anti-gun regulation and even anti-food stamp effort across the country. I say that as someone who worked in a non-partisan office in the Texas Legislation from 2009-2013. It was an absolute mess and headache for moderate Dems and Republicans trying to pass good budgets and important laws. New legislators were literally getting in the way solely to look good for their fringe supporters. Look, I agree with one thing, this is hardly a perfect article or a rallying piece. Some guy reiterated the argument laid out in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambermonk Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Well said Josh, especially the last paragraph.I decided not to go thru with coffer after all. Need plenty of rest tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LimpyLoo Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I think that the root of our problems is the basic sense of alienation entailed in living in the modern world. People's political instincts seem to differ drastically from the community-level to the national-level to the global-level. It's funny to think of all of the various political philosophies playing out on an island populated by 30 people. Many of them would seem sociopathic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Toffer Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 What's up with this Polytix? Where the Monotix at? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Member Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 At least say Palestine AND Israel!Israel is in Palestine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plarkreluke Banloboh Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 The collective conscious is preparring for retirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest M360 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 If you Hope to Change then youll probably be inconvenienced... Or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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